Touhou Physiology Updates

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah, should I start applying the smaller stuff while we figure out what to do with type 5 immortality/plot manipulation?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Memories broken
The truth goes unspoken
I even forgotten my naa-a-a-a-ame

 

[Elizhaa]

Oh yeah, should I start applying the smaller stuff while we figure out what to do with type 5 immortality/plot manipulation?

Seems fine.

I still think like more proofs of plot manipulation is needed even if localized.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will get started shortly. I will have enough time to do the edits tonight I think, but I'm somewhat tired and am going to be busy for most of tomorrow so I won't be able to look for further proof of plot manipulation until later. I'd also like to remind people that we still need further input on phantom type 5 immortality and its associated upgrades.

EDIT: Yeah so hunting down the source for every scan for the sake of references took way too much time so I'm gonna have to come back to the edits later, sorry. If anyone else wants to do them in the meantime, please for the love of god try to keep the order I used for the finished profiles and use the justifications I already made, I don't wanna go back and reorder stuff later on, and we need to keep some degree of consistency so the profiles look better.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have finished applying the accepted edits.

I also wanna ask if it's a good idea to close this and save the points of contention (youkai plot manip resistance and phantom immortality) for a future revision so @Hecatia_Gaming and @Violatas can post their revisions. I don't wanna hold them up indefinitely or anything.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Shmooply]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Y'know what, I'm realizing now that the main proof of plot manip would require me to explain the existence of a higher meta-narrative within Touhou canon, and while I can do that, this is really not the thread for it and would likely need to be handled later, given it also ties into tier 1 arguments. So we can just save that for later. And if nobody has anything to add in regards to type 5 immortality, we should probably just save that for the future too and close this thread.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Moto]

Y'know what, I'm realizing now that the main proof of plot manip would require me to explain the existence of a higher meta-narrative within Touhou canon, and while I can do that, this is really not the thread for it and would likely need to be handled later, given it also ties into tier 1 arguments. So we can just save that for later. And if nobody has anything to add in regards to type 5 immortality, we should probably just save that for the future too and close this thread.

Hi, about the "Yukari can kill Mokou" - her statement is in conflict with how Mokou's immortality works. You say she doesn't have a concept of life/death, so there is nothing for Yukari to manipulate here as she describes. Keep in mind other characters made such statements, such as Yuyuko pointing out that Reimu is as good as dead because she flew into the underworld (being extremely literal here). Its quite possible that Yukari merely said she can send Mokou to the afterlife by making a portal there (which we know she can do).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hi, about the "Yukari can kill Mokou" - her statement is in conflict with how Mokou's immortality works. You say she doesn't have a concept of life/death, so there is nothing for Yukari to manipulate here as she describes. Keep in mind other characters made such statements, such as Yuyuko pointing out that Reimu is as good as dead because she flew into the underworld (being extremely literal here). Its quite possible that Yukari merely said she can send Mokou to the afterlife by making a portal there (which we know she can do).

That's how type 5 immortality negation works, yes. It shouldn't work, but it does. Why? Who ******* knows. Killing that which is immune to the very concept of being "killed" in a conventional sense is utterly nonsensical, but we do allow it. Just search the wiki for "Immortality Negation (Type 5)" and you'll see what I mean.

The portal argument doesn't make sense because 1. Yukari says Mokou will go through a "near-death experience", which isn't really consistent with assuming BFR is at play, and 2. Mokou could literally just go to the Netherworld normally without Yukari's intervention, given that we've seen other Hourai immortals like Eirin do so before (specifically in the Netherworld team's scenario in Imperishable Night).

 

[Moto]

I am contesting it purely based on the method she describes. She needs a boundary to work with and as evidenced with her interactions with Lunarians (both Kaguya and Toyohime) things that are infinite or eternal can beat out her boundary manipulation. If she can find a different stipulation to use, that's fine, but rather than letting this flimsy justification stand, I would rather explore the option that Yukari isn't being literal, that she is mistaken about her ability to kill her, or that Mokou isn't a type 5 immortal if we accept this method works for her.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am contesting it purely based on the method she describes. She needs a boundary to work with and as evidenced with her interactions with Lunarians (both Kaguya and Toyohime) things that are infinite or eternal can beat out her boundary manipulation. If she can find a different stipulation to use, that's fine, but rather than letting this flimsy justification stand, I would rather explore the option that Yukari isn't being literal, that she is mistaken about her ability to kill her, or that Mokou isn't a type 5 immortal if we accept this method works for her.

A lot of this is very wrong. Her boundary manipulation is not cancelled out by infinity or eternity, and there is nothing demonstrating as such. In Kaguya's case, I don't ever recall her eternity manipulation being a problem for Yukari in any way. Yukari is also unlikely to be mistaken given that she has fought Mokou before and understands the nature of her immortality, and Mokou not having type 5 is ridiculous. This is about as clear of a statement as you can get for type 5, and is supported by how the Ultramarine Orb Elixir, which was made by the same person as the Hourai elixir (Eirin), grants a similar degree of immortality. As for Yukari not being literal... What other valid interpretations are there? You can't just go "maybe she meant something else" and then not list that 'something else'.

Really, the only issue with this feat is that it defies common sense. But that is not, and never will be, a reason to reject a feat, especially not when we're dealing with high-fantasy fiction literally built on the premise of everything lacking common sense. In a similar vein, Touhou characters are equally capable of interacting with and harming abstract ideas or characters who don't even exist, which makes just as much sense as using death manipulation on a type 5 immortal (which is ti say, none).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[OverlordDonnelly]

One day these threads will be closed and completed. Not today though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I might just request for this to be closed and post a new thread in its place. Save the controversial stuff for later, since we've gotten most stuff approved and applied.