Totally not a Dark Souls Tier revision

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Note: I'm either late to the party on this one and everyone already knows this, or I'm a genius. I prefer the latter, but it's probably the former.

Now that the click bait and disclaimer's outta the way, let's talk about the Chosen Undead's (and by extension all other undead in Dark Souls) Resurrection.

Currently, to my knowledge, we treat it basically like Mid-Godly Regeneration that triggers on death, because fodder undead are mindless and still rez, all DS PCs can still rez without any souls and all DS PCs disintegrate on death. The issue here is I think all undead do actually rez from a soul and I'm 90% confidant it's the Dark Soul. For a while now I've been trying to rationalize why the DS PCs can permakill some undead (outside of game mechanics) and why Undead bosses have souls and I'm pretty sure the Dark Soul answers both of these questions. We know that Furtive Pygmy fragmented the Dark Soul and this basically gave birth to humanity which means that all humanity possess a fragment of a Lord Soul which the Darksign was designed to contain. We know that when you kill most bosses they give up a number of minor souls, which are added to your soul count, and a larger, more powerful soul which in Undead bosses can be explained as there particular fragment. We can possibly explain the DS PCs permakilling undead as the PC absorbing/taking their fragment of the Dark Soul and preventing their Darksign from rezzing them.

I'd also like to talk about Humanity (the item, not us). What exactly is it? It's separate from normal souls and different from the Dark Soul.

Also, all our Undead pages that aren't the PCs are missing resurrection, which they should have.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

There's already a Dark Souls CRT going. It just died for some reason.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

ofc soul of cinder would be here first

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It really shouldn't be surprising.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

@Soul Are you talking about the Speed downgrade or the Tier revision? Cause this has nothing to do with either.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I forgot about the Speed one tbh. Either way, CRTs are running.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I mean I forgot about both of them, but this is still unconnected to either one.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It doesn't matter if they're connected or not, the rule currently is only one CRT per verse. I'm honestly not sure why one of those other two didn't get closed because of this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Closing this for now, content revisions can only be made after a previous thread has already been concluded.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Thread has been reopened

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Remind me what we left off on here?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Technically everything since it got closed before any actual discussion happened, but to clarify my points, since my op is a little rambly;

• The Undead Curse uses the Dark Soul to rez the undead
• The Dark Souls PCs can steal that Dark Soul fragment when they kill Undead
• All Undead need resurrection added to their profiles
• What is Humanity and is figuring that out important?

And while I'm thinking about it

• Why does Bearer of the Curse not have an 8-B key? Do we really believe he starts the game in tier 6?

I also plan on going through every single item, weapon and piece of armor later and making sure all DS PCs have everything they should.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

DS2 in general needs a revision. Its beginning sections don't have any characters that would scale to the 8-B feat, so Bearer would be 9-B/9-A, but that's a whole other thread.

Humanity is the Dark Soul. Humans are supposed to look like walking raisins, but Gwyn needed souls to keep the First Flame going, so he manipulated people into believing not looking like a raisin was the "normal" state of humanity, and everyone who didn't look like that got thrown into places like the Undead Settlement where they are tormented. This fear of looking like a burnt chicken tender/thrown into a torture camp is what drives people to use bonfires and exchange their Dark Soul for the chance to look "normal".

That's why rats have so much Humanity. They ate people. Gael also ate people and almost had the complete Dark Soul.

This was why I was opposed to Chosen Undead having a soul at all, he can have 0 Humanity and still live.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Now, while that's fine and would basically end this thread here and now, is there anywhere specific this is mentioned or is that put together from context?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

We still need to add resurrection to all the undead.

 

[Antvasima]

@ThePerpetual @Mr._Bambu @Monarch_Laciel @Wokistan @SinsofMan @SheevShezarrine @ArgosaxDespair

Are you willing to offer input here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Quickly regarding Oven's DS2 comment, I can calc any super early game feats if he likes. Perhaps that giant would yield something.

In any case... regarding the thread, I'm fairly sure undead aren't considered humans? And certainly, not all of them bear humanity. So I don't believe I agree with considering an individual with no humanity and no souls to speak of as in possession of a soul. I think the above requires a bit too much speculation to give the man soul-sealing-and-hyper-immortality-negging.

The humanity item is representative of the Dark Soul. Based on the fact that, IIRC, Dark Souls establishes a core difference between undead and humans (undead being cursed creatures that lose their humanity), it makes sense that things like rats and shit have it, like Ovens points out.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

We still need to add resurrection to all the undead.

Alright well, I guess that's that then. We still need to add the above though.

 

[Antvasima]

So is there enough consensus here to do anything yet?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Sounds like the main point is being rejected, which is fine it was a long shot anyway. The bit I'm still on is giving Resurrection to the Undead that don't have it, which absolutely no one has commented on. I'm pretty sure it's gameplay mechanics that prevent named undead characters and bosses from resurrecting.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I have no particular issue with this interpretation, though I'd like a list of the undead in particular. I don't recall any extraordinary exceptions off the top of my head but if I saw a list of the names I might.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Well, someone recently reorganized the Verse page and clumped all the undead together, but logically all undead should have it unless you're trying to say the curse discriminates.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, someone recently reorganized the Verse page and clumped all the undead together, but logically all undead should have it unless you're trying to say the curse discriminates.

Actually... yeah, afaik it does. Ignoring game mechanics, afaik most undead can't resurrect once they're hollow, like when Siegmeyer is killed. Other deaths that end up as permanent can be handwaved as game mechanics, the in-universe mechanics of time and the convolutions thereof, or simply those guys ******* off after you've killed them. But hollow guys I don't think are technically capable of resurrecting barring the PC.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

That doesn't sound right at all. Why would the undead be such a problem then if they stopped rezzing after going hollow?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Firstly, because Gwyn made it seem like a problem. IIRC it was Gwyn's machinations that made the undead divided because he wanted the Age of Fire to continue. Thus the religions dedicated to the gods shunned them (see: Way of White).

Secondly, because some of them don't go hollow for a very long time. However, we do see some undead actually die. Again, Siegmeyer, and others from the first game include Oscar (he dies after he learns that he isn't the one in the prophecy) and Solaire (dies after "finding a sun" and going mad), both of which take away their goals, e.g., their reason to not be hollow. The ones that remain undead can still absolutely remain a problem.

Furthermore, wouldn't it also not make sense for Siegmeyer's daughter to hunt him down and mourn his death if she knew he would just pop back, just like that? Why would his corpse remain on the ground?

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Firstly, it's not just Gwyn making it seem like a problem, we see the issue in DS3 with the Undead settlement. We see the undead being so numerous in DS3 that they are being stuffed into cages just to attempt at some measure of control.

Secondly, we also see countless hollow undead rezzing everytime the PCs rezz, unless that's considered gameplay mechanics.

I can't specifically remember anything that mentions the Undead no longer rezzing after going hollow, that sounds like an assumption, personally.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Firstly, Gwyn seems to be the reason those settlements exist, no? The Way of White cast out the undead and formed those settlements. That said, I'm not certain I understand your point- high numbers of undead doesn't inherently point to trouble, it points to a coming of the end of the age of fire. Undead being stuffed into cages seems to be linked to the Mound Makers covenant (given one of those individuals carries you to the covenant "base" or whatever you'd like to call it) so I don't think that's anything other than cult fanaticism, though it's also heavily open to interpretation tbf.

Secondly... there could just be a lot of undead? Or not all of them are fully Hollow.

Well tbf I gave you a good few examples.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Large numbers of violent, hollow, ever resurrecting undead would be a huge problem for any culture regardless of who's in charge. While yes, those settlements were likely created by Gwyn faithful, what else are you supposed to do with the mindless zombies if you can't kill them. I was always under the impression that the undead with even a shred of wits about them were the peaceful NPCs and not the mobs that attack on sight.

I think we have a difference of interpretation here, so I'm not sure if we can come to consensus on this one. I was under the impression that the Undead Curse caused all Undead to rezz regardless of how hollow they were and the few NPCs who "died" only did because otherwise normally safe areas would become much less so for the player. That or it's just a minor inconsistency in the lore. I mean there are a few of those, even in DS1.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions regarding what should be done here yet?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, tabbed into this earlier but didn't respond.

I think Apies is correct, it is my belief that such a thing wouldn't be glaringly ignored by the lore when so much else is made to bend the knee to said lore. I disagree with his interpretation, he disagrees with mine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@ThePerpetual @Monarch_Laciel @Wokistan @SinsofMan @Sir_Ovens @SheevShezarrine @ArgosaxDespair

Would you be willing to help us out by evaluating this please?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So what? Are just adding Resurrection to a few of the Characters now?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That is what he wants, yeah. I'm honestly fine with it but I truly don't think hollow characters can resurrect due to the canon deaths of several undead that had gone hollow.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just want to say, Siegward isn't undead, he's unkindled. There's a difference.

Siegward directly states he's unkindled to the Ashen One and it appears that unkindled immortality works separately from the undead curse. The Lords of Cinder and the Ashen One himself would not have come back to life had Lothric linked the fire. As such, Siegward dying has nothing to do with Siegmeyer, and is an isolated incident.

Siegmeyer on the other hand, can come back. Sieglinde (who isn't undead by the way, her addition on that section of the Dark Souls page was my mistake), states that she always killed her father every time he went hollow. And honestly, considering the fact that undead always spawn back at a bonfire, this is the equivalent of getting him an Uber home. It's kind of a stretch, but consider the Chosen Undead hollowing but never truly losing himself. Who's to say that this is uncommon among hollows? Especially given the Lord of Hollows ending of DS3. It's very likely that Siegmeyer isn't truly dead, so I'm fine with the addition of resurrection to all hollows.

Long story short hollows have type 8 reliant on Undead Curse, unkindled have type 8 reliant on the First Flame.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I... said Siegmeyer. Not Siegward. Two different dudes, Ovens.

EDIT: It does seem you're right regarding Sieglinde. Huh. Fair enough, then, carry on.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I was more so stipulating the difference between Siegward and Siegmeyer. Siegward dying after killing Yhorm is not comparable to Siegmeyer dying after his daughter kills him. We have context to believe Siegmeyer is still alive, while we don't know what happens to Siegward after the fight.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean sure but I wasn't particularly concerned with Siegward, since, yeah, the reason he was reanimated as an Ashen One was done, so he disappeared.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any agreements here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The individuals Apies can get Resurrection added, yeah.