Tokyo Revengers: small revision

[Zefra3011]

This discussion has the purpose to clean up some justifications and other small things:

- Takemichi scales Subsonic+ because "fought on pair with Kisaki" while Kisaki scales to Subsonic+ because "fought on pair with Takemichi" so there isn't a real justification why they are actually Subsonic+ so either we provide an actual justification for this tier or we have to downgrade both, Takemichi will still be Subsonic+ with resolution, this might lead to a downgrade for Kiyomasa.

- Mikey in his first key, kid Mikey, is rated Street+ likely Wall, I suggest we just change it do Wall since Kicked Shinichiro in the face when trying to fly his plane, almost breaking his nose and knocking him out while Sinichiro scales to this (18 kj).

- Baji is rated Wall because "Superior to takemichi, who brought Taiju on his knees" but Takemichi had his resolution up when he did that which scales him to people like Kakucho, Baji shouldn't scale there so a better justification would just be "Superior to Mitsuya who could keep up with 70% Taiju, performed this"

- Taiju scales Subsonic+ because "Countered Wakasa and Benkei's "rush attack" and defeated them" Wakasa and Benkei were tired and is implied he could perform it due to that, a better justification would be a simple "Should be comparable if not superior to Inui and Koko" in addition to the first justification.

- For Izana we should just change "Dominated Mikey in the first half of their fight, although Mikey wasn't at his full power for multiple reasons" when is directly stated by Draken he was using his full strenght and Draken fought on Mikey's side since they were kids so he knows Mikey full strenght, also the statment is followed up by "this alone can tell you how crazy strong Izana is", this comparison wouldn't make sense if Mikey wasn't 100%.

- Senju and Wakasa scale Subsonic+ because both "blitzed" base South, they just dodged his attacks but never actually blitzed him, he was just surprised by their acrobatics skills whcih are the ones that allow them to dodged those attacks, Base South was able to damage Wakasa and Benkei while 1 v 2 them which wouldn't make sense if Wakasa could actually blitz him, Benkei called him "monster" and you don't call someone a monster when he is astronomically slower than you.

- I also want to suggest to set a multiplier for the attacks speed amp given by the Dark Impulses of x2, Hanma was at first capable of blocking Mikey's kick but the next arc when Mike was DI Hanma couldn't even see it, we know DI is an AS multiplier also because South went from having a decent match up against Wakasa and Benkei to no diff them when at first they could react to his attacks, this change would lead to a slightly increase of Mikey and South AS and Senju reaction from 404 m/s to 450 m/s (due to x2 this) which is, unironically, the same speed of the gun used against Senju but I guess as long as we don't surpass that exact speed by a lot we shouldn't have a problems and shouldn't be an outlier.

 

[Dalesean027]

This seems fine at a glance

 

[Zefra3011]

Bump

 

[Therefir]

I agree with this.

 

[Syncornize]

This discussion has the purpose to clean up some justifications and other small things:

- Takemichi scales Subsonic+ because "fought on pair with Kisaki" while Kisaki scales to Subsonic+ because "fought on pair with Takemichi" so there isn't a real justification why they are actually Subsonic+ so either we provide an actual justification for this tier or we have to downgrade both, Takemichi will still be Subsonic+ with resolution, this might lead to a downgrade for Kiyomasa.

i agree,this is circular reasoning. it needs to be fixed.

- For Izana we should just change "Dominated Mikey in the first half of their fight, although Mikey wasn't at his full power for multiple reasons" when is directly stated by Draken he was using his full strenght and Draken fought on Mikey's side since they were kids so he knows Mikey full strenght, also the statment is followed up by "this alone can tell you how crazy strong Izana is", this comparison wouldn't make sense if Mikey wasn't 100%.

I think this can only be applied to speed. Mikey's Ap and durability is higher because of damaging Izana so much that his advantage is totally absent; his body is able to sustain few of Mikey's kicks. Characters like Hanma can be hit several times by Mikey with less damage.
As soon as Izana was hit in the face, he suffered severe damage and was temporarily knocked out, so it can be concluded that Izana doesn’t have AP and durability comparable to Mikey. Mikey can take many more hits from Izana and be more performant, he also showed that he could stand up to izana's punches and not be thrown off. Following this, Izana is "amazed" by this blow and seems to imply that Mikey's precendent blows were not as powerful, as if he held back. We cannot ignore that Mikey isn’t in good physical and mental condition. I think it is clear that Mikey's strategy was to wait for Izana to weaken and later punish him with whatever Mikey could offer. I think another key must be used to explain this sub-relativity. if we want to be specific but if nothing better can be found we will accept your opinion

I think other profiles should be changed as well.

- Kojiro is one-shotted and slightly out speeded by Ryusei who is inferior to Baji. In their fight baji was not serious. I think he is below Chifuyu since he is also able to fight against Ryusei.

- Chome and Chombo's feat is a random feat and would result related to stronger characters. i think adding : "possibly" or something like that is more correct as an insubstantial feats to be evaluated. These guys with feats superior to baji or characters like that...I can't see it. I think Mikey's bad balance may be a valid justification

(makes me a little sad that only 2 Tr supporters so far have commented on a profile change thread that is not a downgrde calc)

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Mikey in his first key, kid Mikey, is rated Street+ likely Wall, I suggest we just change it do Wall since Kicked Shinichiro in the face when trying to fly his plane, almost breaking his nose and knocking him out while Sinichiro scales to this (18 kj).

I don't disagree, but I think it's better to scale Kid Mikey to Baji's 148KJ feat, Baji around the time he performed that 148KJ feat struggled with some delinquents when he tried to protect Mikey's moped, Mikey when he was a kid can already defeat those type of goons with low difficulty.

This is kinda lowball because Mikey wasn't even trying.

For Izana we should just change "Dominated Mikey in the first half of their fight, although Mikey wasn't at his full power for multiple reasons" when is directly stated by Draken he was using his full strenght and Draken fought on Mikey's side since they were kids so he knows Mikey full strenght, also the statment is followed up by "this alone can tell you how crazy strong Izana is", this comparison wouldn't make sense if Mikey wasn't 100%.

Agree with this as well for now, but might change my opinion based on something on top of my head (it's not Mikey being depressed because of his sister's death, it's another issue, which I want more time to think about, and no, don't ask me about it)


Agree with the above two.
I disagree with everything else (all the scaling chain), but I will not address now since either me or Corbin is gonna take care of that in the future (and I have no energy to argue right now)
however since the last part really concerns me, I'll have to address it right now.

South doesn't even have Dark Impulses, his is just called "Dark Urges".
It's not even the same to what Mikey has.
And no, Dark Impulses doesn't boost Mikey's stats, it just makes Mikey bloodlusted. It's just that Mikey's stats grows faster in relation to other characters.
That's the reason why the Kick delivered to Taiju (by Mikey without dark impulses) is faster than the Kick delivered to Hanma on both occasions.

 

[Dinozxd]

- Takemichi scales Subsonic+ because "fought on pair with Kisaki" while Kisaki scales to Subsonic+ because "fought on pair with Takemichi" so there isn't a real justification why they are actually Subsonic+ so either we provide an actual justification for this tier or we have to downgrade both, Takemichi will still be Subsonic+ with resolution, this might lead to a downgrade for Kiyomasa.

I agree with this.

"Should be comparable if not superior to Inui and Koko" in addition to the first justification.

Taiju no diffed Inui when they first met. Taiju is superior to both Inui and Koko.

For Izana we should just change "Dominated Mikey in the first half of their fight, although Mikey wasn't at his full power for multiple reasons" when is directly stated by Draken he was using his full strenght and Draken fought on Mikey's side since they were kids so he knows Mikey full strenght, also the statment is followed up by "this alone can tell you how crazy strong Izana is", this comparison wouldn't make sense if Mikey wasn't 100%.

Neutral on this for now.

- Senju and Wakasa scale Subsonic+ because both "blitzed" base South, they just dodged his attacks but never actually blitzed him, he was just surprised by their acrobatics skills whcih are the ones that allow them to dodged those attacks, Base South was able to damage Wakasa and Benkei while 1 v 2 them which wouldn't make sense if Wakasa could actually blitz him, Benkei called him "monster" and you don't call someone a monster when he is astronomically slower than you.

I suggest we change that to "Was able to keep up with base South" since both sides took almost equal damage.

Mikey and South AS

I agree with Morris here. Mikey's Dark Impulses are a curse where Dark Urges of South are basically his childhood traumas making him more violent and bloodlusted. I also don't suggest any multiplier being used for Dark Impulses since something like that isn't stated in the series

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I agree with most of the points brought up by @Syncornize @MorrisHatesYou and @Dinozxd.

For Izana we should just change "Dominated Mikey in the first half of their fight, although Mikey wasn't at his full power for multiple reasons" when is directly stated by Draken he was using his full strenght and Draken fought on Mikey's side since they were kids so he knows Mikey full strenght, also the statment is followed up by "this alone can tell you how crazy strong Izana is", this comparison wouldn't make sense if Mikey wasn't 100%.

Agreed.

Izana is simply superior to Mikey. Period.

The "reasons" why Mikey is weakened are based on pure speculation on his mental state which directly contradict Draken and Takemichy, who clearly state that Mikey is back and fighting at full strength.

The reason Mikey beat him was due to Izana's endurance, as his limbs couldn't take too many of Mikey's powerful signature kicks, as Draken clearly stated. Izana's movements began getting slower as a result, and Mikey simply capitalized on it.

I also want to suggest to set a multiplier for the attacks speed amp given by the Dark Impulses of x2, Hanma was at first capable of blocking Mikey's kick but the next arc when Mike was DI Hanma couldn't even see it, we know DI is an AS multiplier also because South went from having a decent match up against Wakasa and Benkei to no diff them when at first they could react to his attacks, this change would lead to a slightly increase of Mikey and South AS and Senju reaction from 404 m/s to 450 m/s (due to x2 this) which is, unironically, the same speed of the gun used against Senju but I guess as long as we don't surpass that exact speed by a lot we shouldn't have a problems and shouldn't be an outlier.

This was a result of Mikey's accelerated development. DI Mikey is just bloodlust.

I disagree withh the multiplier.

 

[Zefra3011]

I think this can only be applied to speed. Mikey's Ap and durability is higher because of damaging Izana so much that his advantage is totally absent; his body is able to sustain few of Mikey's kicks. Characters like Hanma can be hit several times by Mikey with less damage.
As soon as Izana was hit in the face, he suffered severe damage and was temporarily knocked out, so it can be concluded that Izana doesn’t have AP and durability comparable to Mikey. Mikey can take many more hits from Izana and be more performant, he also showed that he could stand up to izana's punches and not be thrown off. Following this, Izana is "amazed" by this blow and seems to imply that Mikey's precendent blows were not as powerful, as if he held back. We cannot ignore that Mikey isn’t in good physical and mental condition. I think it is clear that Mikey's strategy was to wait for Izana to weaken and later punish him with whatever Mikey could offer. I think another key must be used to explain this sub-relativity. if we want to be specific but if nothing better can be found we will accept your opinion

I'm pretty sure Izana would still scale to Mikey's AP since they can exchange kicks, Mikey durability and endurance are insane tho, the best think we can do imo is just pointing out in Mikey's durability rating that he had no problem in tanking Izana's attack which should be comparable to Mikey's ap (so Mikey durab > Mikey AP basically).

Mikey wasn't in good mental conditions sure, he still could fight at his 100%, his sister died, yes, that doesn't affect much his physic especially considering Draken's statment.

I think other profiles should be changed as well.

- Kojiro is one-shotted and slightly out speeded by Ryusei who is inferior to Baji. In their fight baji was not serious. I think he is below Chifuyu since he is also able to fight against Ryusei.

I would just suggest to make him downscale from Chifuyu, still sub+ just slower.

- Chome and Chombo's feat is a random feat and would result related to stronger characters. i think adding : "possibly" or something like that is more correct as an insubstantial feats to be evaluated. These guys with feats superior to baji or characters like that...I can't see it. I think Mikey's bad balance may be a valid justification

Agree, the only problem is that the car feat is performed while Mikey had that bad balance, I don't have any problem in considering that an outlier.

I don't disagree, but I think it's better to scale Kid Mikey to Baji's 148KJ feat, Baji around the time he performed that 148KJ feat struggled with some delinquents when he tried to protect Mikey's moped, Mikey when he was a kid can already defeat those type of goons with low difficulty.

Nah, I disagree, those Baji are different in power, is kinda obvious, when Baji performed that feat he was older and didn't struggled implying he was stronger.

I noticed someone put Mikey kid > 148 kj in the verse page, I doubt a thread has been made for that, it should be removed, making him scaling from Sinichiro is much more solid.



Ok now going with the DI part:

First all of your arguments are based on Reactive power which happens thanks his DI, the only statment we have that justify that is when he is DI against Takemichi in the final arc, nothing in the entire serie indicates Mikey in base can just go faster for some unkown reason, even if you look at his hax section both Stats Amplification and Reactive Power are in the DI part and no in Mikey base part, so you should prove Mikey can somehow become faster in base.

South doesn't even have Dark Impulses, his is just called "Dark Urges".
It's not even the same to what Mikey has.

May not be the exact same thing, both DI and "Dark urges" work the same way (and just because they are called by different (similar) names doesn't mean they are different things) When South activates them we have a visible aura like Mikey and also they made South no diff 2 guys when they first were relative and could dodge/block his attacks and when he activate those "Dark urges" they could do nothing other than lose, again it might be weaker from what Mikey has but it works the same way, considering this I'm wiling to only make Mikey scale from that x2.

That's the reason why the Kick delivered to Taiju (by Mikey without dark impulses) is faster than the Kick delivered to Hanma on both occasions.

Nah, if that would be that much faster than his usual kicks they would have noticed something, Takemichi was only surprised Taiju disappeared from his sight, Mikey is never mentioned to do the same, what does this says to us? That kick was as fast as the others, every kick is presented to be instantaneous, I don't even want to say they saw Mikey, I just want to say Takemichi wasn't surprised about the speed of the kick, even Koko commented what happend and he was only surprised that Taiju got one shotted, a thing I learned is that when an author wants to make a context he can and will, no one even said "that speed..." or anything similar to that, people were just surprised Taiju got one shotted, in conclusion that kick is as fast as others.

I also don't suggest any multiplier being used for Dark Impulses since something like that isn't stated in the series

I'm pretty sure that setting a bare minimum considering the feats isn't a problem, a x2 is the minimum you must have to demostrate such difference in speed.

Anyway I'm pretty sure I sent enough proofs why DI makes his kicks faster, even if you want to consider it just a bloodlusted state it's fine because at the end of the day Mikey bloodlusted is at least x2 faster than base Mikey, we have a clear feat: Hanma blocking a Base Mikey kick and the same hanma not seeing a DI Mikey kick, South did something similar with a similar stats amp and nothing proves base Mikey can become faster than base Mikey somehow.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

First all of your arguments are based on Reactive power which happens thanks his DI, the only statment we have that justify that is when he is DI against Takemichi in the final arc, nothing in the entire serie indicates Mikey in base can just go faster for some unkown reason, even if you look at his hax section both Stats Amplification and Reactive Power are in the DI part and no in Mikey base part, so you should prove Mikey can somehow become faster in base.

May I ask. What are the arguments that support statistic amplification for DI Mikey?

Because there is evidence Mikey is capable of becoming faster when needed and it may logically explain why Mikey has faster kicks throughout the series. However if there is an argument for statistic amplification and not Blood lust. I wanna hear it.

 

[GoldenBooster445]

I agree with downgrading Takemichi to subsonic+ via resolution and subsonic without it, his supersonic should just be removed altogether since it's literally stated on his profile that he aimdodged Midkey's blows.

Agreed with removing Baji's justification for wall level, I've replaced it with his calc of pummeling a wall, it makes no difference here, he'd still be wall level.

Also @Zefra3011 can Taiju's class 5 LS be removed since the clownyagami LS and Ap calc for the church pew were both debunked? He's superior to Inui anyway who could keep up with the legendary duo for a while so i don't think it makes a difference.

And as for DI, does that mean Mikey can get bumped up to 2.722 Megajoules? If we add up the energy yield for the car hood feat and the car grill feat it comes out to 1.361 Megajoules, which would be 2.722 megajoules w/ DI. Anyway for now I am neutral about this.

 

[Dinozxd]

Nah, I disagree, those Baji are different in power, is kinda obvious, when Baji performed that feat he was older and didn't struggled implying he was stronger.

I noticed someone put Mikey kid > 148 kj in the verse page, I doubt a thread has been made for that, it should be removed, making him scaling from Sinichiro is much more solid.

The difference between Mikey and Baji is big so I don't think one year age difference really matters. 12 year old Mikey should be superior to 13 year old Baji in any way.

I'm pretty sure that setting a bare minimum considering the feats isn't a problem, a x2 is the minimum you must have to demostrate such difference in speed.

I don't think multipliers can be used like that in the wiki. Two times stat amp is just your opinion and it is never stated in the series.

 

[Zefra3011]

I agree with downgrading Takemichi to subsonic+ via resolution and subsonic without it, his supersonic should just be removed altogether since it's literally stated on his profile that he aimdodged Midkey's blows.

Even if using aim dodging he is able to avoid Supersonic attacks, when Mikey went faster he could barely keep up to the point the visions were useless, the point is that with his visions he can keep up with a Supersonic character, we can agree in removing "reaction" tho

Also @Zefra3011 can Taiju's class 5 LS be removed since the clownyagami LS and Ap calc for the church pew were both debunked? He's superior to Inui anyway who could keep up with the legendary duo for a while so i don't think it makes a difference.

No one should scale to classe 5 for the moment, pretty sure someone just forgot to change some profiles

And as for DI, does that mean Mikey can get bumped up to 2.722 Megajoules? If we add up the energy yield for the car hood feat and the car grill feat it comes out to 1.361 Megajoules, which would be 2.722 megajoules w/ DI. Anyway for now I am neutral about this.

Nah, I disagree with the AP amp, while we have actual proofs he is faster we dont have proofs if he becomes stronger, the fact he oneshotted Hanma is just because the kick landed in the head which can easily knock you out, he couldn't do that during the first fight.

The difference between Mikey and Baji is big so I don't think one year age difference really matters. 12 year old Mikey should be superior to 13 year old Baji in any way.

We should have solid proofs of kid Mikey being superior to that Baji and not a weaker Baji.

I don't think multipliers can be used like that in the wiki. Two times stat amp is just your opinion and it is never stated in the series.

I mean, the feats are clear, if the Wiki have some rules against that it will just end up rejected by the staff so it's not worth discussing that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

- I also want to suggest to set a multiplier for the attacks speed amp given by the Dark Impulses of x2, Hanma was at first capable of blocking Mikey's kick but the next arc when Mike was DI Hanma couldn't even see it, we know DI is an AS multiplier also because South went from having a decent match up against Wakasa and Benkei to no diff them when at first they could react to his attacks, this change would lead to a slightly increase of Mikey and South AS and Senju reaction from 404 m/s to 450 m/s (due to x2 this) which is, unironically, the same speed of the gun used against Senju but I guess as long as we don't surpass that exact speed by a lot we shouldn't have a problems and shouldn't be an outlier.

I'm sorry. Having not read the series is an 2x boost stated anywhere or is it an attempt to figure out a multiplier? If not there is a rule about that:
As such several guidelines are in place, which regulate multiplier use:

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

The statements a multiplier is based on must always be reliable.

Multipliers

A multiplier is generally some number a different number is multiplied with to get a new number. For our VS Battles use we more specifically refer to a number as multiplier, if that number is multiplied with some statistic of a character or its attacks to get a new statistic for the character...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Syncornize]

I'm pretty sure Izana would still scale to Mikey's AP since they can exchange kicks, Mikey durability and endurance are insane tho, the best think we can do imo is just pointing out in Mikey's durability rating that he had no problem in tanking Izana's attack which should be comparable to Mikey's ap (so Mikey durab > Mikey AP basically).

Mikey wasn't in good mental conditions sure, he still could fight at his 100%, his sister died, yes, that doesn't affect much his physic especially considering Draken's statment.

mental state affects performace, the scan I sent shows that Mikey gets shots because he is distracted by falshbacks. the first thing and perhaps the most important thing a fighter trains is the mind as it plays a key factor. Your movements would look clumsy or unwise if you don't have a clear mind. You can have the skill of Floyd Mayweather but if you are not present with your head you will lose even against an amateur. Trashtalking in these sports comes about precisely to destabilize the opponent mentally.

Draken's statment refers to the fact that Mikey is fighting using all his energy but that does not imply that he is at full strength (prime). The points I made in the message before confirm my point.

The difference between Mikey and Baji is big so I don't think one year age difference really matters. 12 year old Mikey should be superior to 13 year old Baji in any way.

I don't think multipliers can be used like that in the wiki. Two times stat amp is just your opinion and it is never stated in the series.

This was a result of Mikey's accelerated development. DI Mikey is just bloodlust.

I disagree withh the multiplier..

it would take evidence, The Baji of that feat is older, it doesn't matter even if he is only 1 year older, for what we know that Baji could kill him with one shot.
Joule difference is too high, this needs evidence to confirm.


These arguments are :
Argument from belife (since this seems logical to you then the conclusion is true)
Non-sequitur ( Mikey is bloodlusted and violent so he haven't stats amp),

You have made your point (negative) without any support or explanation when Zefra's point (positive) in addition to already being on the character profile, thus already confirmed, has also brought evidence to support his point. You need sensible evidence or explanation to make your point reasonable, otherwise it is wasted breath.


@Zefra3011 I suggest you make a table or message with the changes to be made and enter and mark who agrees, who is against and who is neutral.

-for the issue of Mikey and Izana I think is relative in speed and sub-relative in AP. Since I find the difference in AP to be minimal or a randomness or something at the plot level one can agree on relativity in that as well.I don't see that as a problem. Effectively it is an argument that has too much logical depth so let's consider that they are equivalent for a while.

- DI = stats amp. agree

- change the term "blitz" in the profiles of Senju and Waka agree

- change chombo,chome and Kojiro agree

- DI = multiplier I am neutral although in this case I find it more correct to add something like : "far higher" without multiply.

 

[Dinozxd]

mental state affects performace, the scan I sent shows that Mikey gets shots because he is distracted by falshbacks. the first thing and perhaps the most important thing a fighter trains is the mind as it plays a key factor. Your movements would look clumsy or unwise if you don't have a clear mind. You can have the skill of Floyd Mayweather but if you are not present with your head you will lose even against an amateur. Trashtalking in these sports comes about precisely to destabilize the opponent mentally.

Draken's statment refers to the fact that Mikey is fighting using all his energy but that does not imply that he is at full strength (prime). The points I made in the message before confirm my point.

change the term "blitz" in the profiles of Senju and Waka agree

DI = multiplier I am neutral although in this case I find it more correct to add something like : "far higher" without multiply.

I agree with Syncornize on these points.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

mental state affects performace, the scan I sent shows that Mikey gets shots because he is distracted by falshbacks. the first thing and perhaps the most important thing a fighter trains is the mind as it plays a key factor. Your movements would look clumsy or unwise if you don't have a clear mind. You can have the skill of Floyd Mayweather but if you are not present with your head you will lose even against an amateur. Trashtalking in these sports comes about precisely to destabilize the opponent mentally.

Draken's statment refers to the fact that Mikey is fighting using all his energy but that does not imply that he is at full strength (prime). The points I made in the message before confirm my point.

I strongly disagree with this.

Misconception 1: Mikey's mental state remained bad to the point that he was unable to fight
Misconception 2: Mikey was not fighting at full strength

This is wrong because Takemichy's desparation and Hinata telling them the truth improved Mikey's mood, and he was back to his normal self, as stated by Hinata and Takemichy themselves. Keep in mind that Takemichy initially thought Mikey wasn't mentally stable enough to fight.

---

All of this ties into Draken statement and Takemichy further emphasizes that Draken meant that there is no bullshit going on, Izana is truly stronger than Mikey.

Therefore, any attempt to claim Mikey's mental state remained bad and didn't improve well enough to fight at full strength is merely speculating and contradicting the manga to support baseless intepretations. The manga disagrees, and so should you.


Izana is stronger than Mikey, period.

 

[Zefra3011]

(there's another summary down)

Summary:

- Downgrade Takemichi, Kisaki and Kyomasa:
Agree: apparently everyone + there are no counter arguments

Change: they would all be rated Athletic Human

- Kid Mikey > 18 KJ:
Agree: Zefra3011, Daleasean027, Therefir + there are no counter arguments

Change: Ap: Wall > Oneshotted Sinichiro who scales 18 KJ

- Kid Mikey > 148 KJ:
Angree: Morrishatesyou, Dinozxs, RoggerRogger, Arndoldstone18
Disagree: Zefra3011, Syncronize

Change: Wall > Should be superior to 13 yo Baji

- Justification adjustment for Baji, Taiju, Senju and Wakasa:
Agree: apparently everyone + there are no counter arguments

Changes:

• Baji: Superior to Mitsuya
• Taiju: Superior to Inui and Koko
• Senju and Wakasa: just removing th"blitz"

- Justification adjustemnt for Izana:
Agree: Basically everyone + there are no counter arguments to change it for the speed section

Change: Just remove "Mikey wasn't 100% during the fight" in the speed section

- 2x multiplier (apparently is against the rules since it's not directly stated, I guess we should just wait for an evaluation here)

Issues presented by Syncronize:

- Kojiro justification adjustment:
Agree: Zefra3011, Syncronize + there are no counter argument

Change: Subsonic+ > downscales from Chifuyu

- Changing Chibe and Chombo to a possibly rating:
Agree: Zefra3011, Syncronize + there are no counter argument

Change: all their rating would be "possibly"


Tell me if I wrote something wrong but as far as I understand these are the votes.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Kid Mikey > 18 KJ:
Agree: Zefra3011, Daleasean027, Therefir + there are no counter arguments

- Kid Mikey > 148 KJ:
Angree: Morrishatesyou, Dinozxs
Disagree: Zefra3011, Syncronize

What’s this about “no counter arguments”. The >148Kj is the counter argument.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Just wait

 

[Arnoldstone18]

- Mikey in his first key, kid Mikey, is rated Street+ likely Wall, I suggest we just change it do Wall since Kicked Shinichiro in the face when trying to fly his plane, almost breaking his nose and knocking him out while Sinichiro scales to this (18 kj).

This should be (Wall level (18kj), Likely Wall level+(148kj))

 

[Zefra3011]

What’s this about “no counter arguments”. The >148Kj is the counter argument.

no one disagree in kid Mikey > 18KJ, they just say he is also > 148 KJ

 

[RoggerReggor]

Agree + Kid Mikey should scale to 148 kJ due to Baji's feats imo.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

no one disagree in kid Mikey > 18KJ, they just say he is also > 148 KJ

Alright.

Then put me down for 148kJ if the feat comes from Baji. Baji isn’t freaking 8x stronger than Mikey.

 

[Dinozxd]

Change: they would all be rated Athletic Human

I didn't agree to rating them Athletic Human. They should all at least be Superhuman, even Subsonic since they are above No name Delinquents.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Nah, I disagree, those Baji are different in power, is kinda obvious, when Baji performed that feat he was older and didn't struggled implying he was stronger.

Protecting Mikey's moped was in August 2003, Baji's feat happened when schools started in Japan at 2004, which will be around April. So, it's like 8 months, but comparing how strong he is on both occasions, you're not wrong.

However, Kid Mikey still scales over Baji in 2004, I'll explain why.

When Baji performed that wall level feat, he was up against Random biker gang, and Baji dealt this much damage on the guy's face.

Mikey way before that, defeated a leader of a gang who's supposed to be stronger than the once Baji faced, since the gang was mentioned to control the neighborhood of Shibuya, probably where Draken lives. So these goons are stronger than your typical randoms.
This is the damage dealt by Mikey to the gang leader, he caved in the gang leader's face.
So, the guy Mikey defeated in a single kick was stronger than the guy Baji punched, and Mikey dealt more damage to his foe compared to Baji, so Mikey's stronger.

First all of your arguments are based on Reactive power which happens thanks his DI, the only statment we have that justify that is when he is DI against Takemichi in the final arc, nothing in the entire serie indicates Mikey in base can just go faster for some unkown reason, even if you look at his hax section both Stats Amplification and Reactive Power are in the DI part and no in Mikey base part, so you should prove Mikey can somehow become faster in base.

May not be the exact same thing, both DI and "Dark urges" work the same way (and just because they are called by different (similar) names doesn't mean they are different things) When South activates them we have a visible aura like Mikey and also they made South no diff 2 guys when they first were relative and could dodge/block his attacks and when he activate those "Dark urges" they could do nothing other than lose, again it might be weaker from what Mikey has but it works the same way, considering this I'm wiling to only make Mikey scale from that x2.

For the first part, I'm just saying Mikey's physical stats grows faster in comparison to other characters, which is 100% true.

And no, Mikey's DI and South's Dark Urges aren't the same, and they don't even work the same way.
Mikey resists his urges, South doesn't.
The auras aren't even the same, South's aura seems to resemble fire burning, Mikey's aura resembles a darker thing. That's like saying Senju's aura is the same as them.

Nah, if that would be that much faster than his usual kicks they would have noticed something, Takemichi was only surprised Taiju disappeared from his sight, Mikey is never mentioned to do the same, what does this says to us? That kick was as fast as the others, every kick is presented to be instantaneous, I don't even want to say they saw Mikey, I just want to say Takemichi wasn't surprised about the speed of the kick, even Koko commented what happend and he was only surprised that Taiju got one shotted, a thing I learned is that when an author wants to make a context he can and will, no one even said "that speed..." or anything similar to that, people were just surprised Taiju got one shotted, in conclusion that kick is as fast as others.

I spent quite some time trying to understand what any of this means...

I'll just say that a mangaka doesn't have to write each and everything about something happening. I mean, Baji cracked the wall, but it isn't explicitly mentioned that he cracked the wall, he just did it, and we saw it, it's that plain and simple.

In Mikey's kicking feat, everyone was blitzed by the speed since they don't know any of the thing that was happening, it's that simple.

 

[Dinozxd]

I strongly disagree with this.

Misconception 1: Mikey's mental state remained bad to the point that he was unable to fight
Misconception 2: Mikey was not fighting at full strength

This is wrong because Takemichy's desparation and Hinata telling them the truth improved Mikey's mood, and he was back to his normal self, as stated by Hinata and Takemichy themselves. Keep in mind that Takemichy initially thought Mikey wasn't mentally stable enough to fight.

---

All of this ties into Draken statement and Takemichy further emphasizes that Draken meant that there is no bullshit going on, Izana is truly stronger than Mikey.

Therefore, any attempt to claim Mikey's mental state remained bad and didn't improve well enough to fight at full strength is merely speculating and contradicting the manga to support baseless intepretations. The manga disagrees, and so should you.


Izana is stronger than Mikey, period.

Draken doesn't know Mikey's full power because Mikey at full power is basically DI Mikey. Draken never saw Mikey in Dark Impulses. Base Mikey is NOT Mikey at full power.

Izana≈Weakened Mikey speed wise
Weakened Mikey>Izana AP wise

DI Mikey is just superior to Izana in every way.

 

[Dinozxd]

Justification for Weakened Mikey being above Izana in AP. Izana landed 6 clean hits on Mikey in total and couldn't knock him out where Mikey knocked him out in one clean hit. Only Izana's limbs were tired so Izana should have tanked this hit if he was above Mikey.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Draken doesn't know Mikey's full power because Mikey at full power is basically DI Mikey. Draken never saw Mikey in Dark Impulses. Base Mikey is NOT Mikey at full power.

Izana≈Weakened Mikey speed wise
Weakened Mikey>Izana AP wise

DI Mikey is just superior to Izana in every way.

This argument only works if DI is accepted to be stronger than Base. Otherwise this is just another form of speculation outside the narrative. I asked @Zefra3011 now I’m asking you. What makes DI a stat amp?

Also keep in mind that if it’s rejected to be a boost in power, there is no reason why Izana can’t be superior to DI Mikey. Even South could damage DI Mikey albeit Mikey’s sig kicks are far stronger ( even for Izana as it weakened his limbs). There is absolutely 0 reasons why Izana shouldn’t scale above DI Mikey.

And stop calling Mikey… Weakened. He is not weakened. You have not stated why he should be weakened despite the manga saying otherwise. Use the term “Base Mikey”

 

[Dinozxd]

This argument only works if DI is accepted to be stronger than Base. Otherwise this is just another form of speculation outside the narrative. I asked @Zefra3011 now I’m asking you. What makes DI a stat amp?

Being more violent is basically a stat amp in the verse (like South's urges)

And stop calling Mikey… Weakened. He is not weakened. You have not stated why he should be weakened despite the manga saying otherwise. Use the term “Base Mikey”

Mikey not in his DI is basically Mikey holding back his strength. DI is an unnatural emotional state where Mikey stops holding back.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Justification for Weakened Mikey being above Izana in AP. Izana landed 6 clean hits on Mikey in total and couldn't knock him out where Mikey knocked him out in one clean hit. Only Izana's limbs were tired so Izana should have tanked this hit if he was above Mikey.

You are taking that scan out of context… Mikey landed many signature kicks on Izana prior which Izana continuously blocked* and landed even more attacks after Izana got slower due to stamina and endurance issues caused by blocking too many of Mikey’s sig kicks.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Being more violent is basically a stat amp in the verse (like South's urges)

If this is true. Then there is no scaling to Izana since that’s its own thing and we don’t know if it’s stronger or comparable to (or maybe even weaker than) Izana.

Mikey not in his DI is basically Mikey holding back his strength. DI is an unnatural emotional state where Mikey stops holding back.

This is speculation and you are contradicting yourself. Is DI a stat amp or Mikey holding back? It can not be both. They are two separate things.

Anyways Mikey holding back is inherently false given Draken’s statement. Draken knows base Mikey more than anyone so it’s going to take a lot more than your words to say he’s wrong.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I mean, Draken literally saw DI Mikey trying to kill Kazutora.

 

[Dinozxd]

You are taking that scan out of context… Mikey landed many signature kicks on Izana prior which Izana continuously blocked* and landed even more attacks after Izana got slower due to stamina and endurance issues caused by blocking too many of Mikey’s sig kicks.

I'm not talking about speed. Only Izana's limbs were tired, there aren't anything suggesting that Izana's durability got lower.

This is speculation and you are contradicting yourself. Is DI a stat amp or Mikey holding back? It can not be both. They are two separate things.

DI Mikey is Mikey going all out basically. I don't know If that can called a stat amp.

Anyways Mikey holding back is inherently false given Draken’s statement. Draken knows base Mikey more than anyone so it’s going to take a lot more than your words to say he’s wrong.

I guess he doesn't know enough as these scans exist.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean, Draken literally saw DI Mikey trying to kill Kazutora.

Lol I literally forgot about this.

 

[Dinozxd]

I mean, Draken literally saw DI Mikey trying to kill Kazutora.

You can clearly see that Mikey's way of fighting was really different in that fight.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

DI Mikey is Mikey going all out basically

Going all out as in going all out to kill, being bloodlusted, you can go all out with your attack without necessarily being bloodlusted.

I guess he doesn't know enough as these scans exist.

I don't see how this has anything to do with how strong Mikey is, Draken was just explaining Mikey pushing them away.

 

[Zefra3011]

Baji isn’t freaking 8x stronger than Mikey.

No one said Mikey caps at 18 KJ, just that is the most solid feat to upscale him imo, I'm willing to put an "higher" after that since he literally KO him casually, 13 yo Baji isn't 8x stronger than Mikey, we just don't know the exact value, the difference between that Baji and Kid Mikey isn't that high.

I didn't agree to rating them Athletic Human. They should all at least be Superhuman, even Subsonic since they are above No name Delinquents.

Nah, they are litterally presented as weak fighters, probably Akaishi would have slammed Takemichi, Take is literally a punching bag without resolution, anything higher than Athletic is just arbitrary imo.

Protecting Mikey's moped was in August 2003, Baji's feat happened when schools started in Japan at 2004, which will be around April. So, it's like 8 months, but comparing how strong he is on both occasions, you're not wrong.

However, Kid Mikey still scales over Baji in 2004, I'll explain why.

When Baji performed that wall level feat, he was up against Random biker gang, and Baji dealt this much damage on the guy's face.

Mikey way before that, defeated a leader of a gang who's supposed to be stronger than the once Baji faced, since the gang was mentioned to control the neighborhood of Shibuya, probably where Draken lives. So these goons are stronger than your typical randoms.
This is the damage dealt by Mikey to the gang leader, he caved in the gang leader's face.
So, the guy Mikey defeated in a single kick was stronger than the guy Baji punched, and Mikey dealt more damage to his foe compared to Baji, so Mikey's stronger.

Nah, I strongly disagree with this, scaling from no name characters is just inconsistent as hell, Black Dragons no names could damaged Draken, with this logic anyone who doesn't get damaged by no names is >>>>>> Draken, most of the times durability in Tr is just random, even the captains can't always one shot no names so unless no names now scale to Draken and the other captains your logic is wrong.

This argument only works if DI is accepted to be stronger than Base. Otherwise this is just another form of speculation outside the narrative. I asked @Zefra3011 now I’m asking you. What makes DI a stat amp?

I didn't answer just because I thought you didn't read my full argument before asking since they were there, anyway:

- South when went DI (or whatever you want to call that thing) could no diff both Wakasa and Benkei in little amount of time when first they were relative and Wakasa and Benkei could clearly dodge/block South punches and still when he was Di they got no diffed badly without being able to do anything.

- The difference we have from the first kick against hanma vs the second kick against Hanma

Also nothing actually proves an accelerated devlopment outside DI.

Anyway the multiplier will probably just get nuked due to wiki rules so I don't really see a reason to keep discussing that, we can make a thread later if someone wants to change that since in the profile DI is both stats amp and accelerated develompent.

EDIT: So removing the x2 the only issue now is Izana? (and yeah if kid Mikey scales to 148 kj or not, but everyone stated his opinion on that so it will just be evaluated, I think it doesn't need more discussion, we should try to keep this thread as clear as possible and not add useless texts)

 

[Dinozxd]

Going all out as in going all out to kill, being bloodlusted, you can go all out with your attack without necessarily being bloodlusted.

No. Mikey holds back when he is at Base. Takemichi said this when Mikey was activating his Dark Impulses.

I don't see how this has anything to do with how strong Mikey is, Draken was just explaining Mikey pushing them away.

Draken doesn't know what Dark Impulses is. Not knowing Dark Impulses=Not knowing Mikey's full power.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Nah, I strongly disagree with this, scaling from no name characters is just inconsistent as hell, Black Dragons no names could damaged Draken, with this logic anyone who doesn't get damaged by no names is >>>>>> Draken, most of the times durability in Tr is just random, even the captains can't always one shot no names so unless no names now scale to Draken and the other captains your logic is wrong.

Draken vs against 100 of them and not one.

Randoms vary in strength, like some of them could hold hakkai and punch him.

The default assumption will be that a random will be on the same level as other randoms if there are no other supporting feats or statements.

Here, it's clear that the guy Mikey kicked is not your typical delinquent and is stronger than your typical randoms since he ruled the neighborhood where Draken lives.

This directly puts the guy above the goon Baji faced since the guy Baji faced is just random.