[Toaru] On Alice surviving Gungnir's destruction

[Churronzon]

Proposal: I'm looking to give Alice a possible resistance to phase manipulation by removing her seal.

To start off with we have the following WoG in the Afterword of one of the volumes stating that the Transcendents would have been capable of surviving and killing Othinus in the Black World (which was the aftermath of Othinus destroying the world), but they were unwilling to pull out their one and only card that would allow them to do so as they are unable to remake the original world.

Secondly, it's stated that you can't survive Gungnir unless you leave human territory. For that reason, Fiamma could not and Ollerus could not. However, the Transcendents can and explicitly do leave human territory by invoking 'Risk 4' which removes the seals to their power.

In the case of Alice, the strongest and originator of all other transcendents, her seal/'Risk 4' comes in the form of the children's book, Adventures in Wonderland.

Finally we have various quotes confirming that Alice herself is capable of ending the world at the same level of Othinus so this isn't even an unprecedented postulation.

1. Can destroy the universe.
2. World would be destroyed
3. Comparison to Othinus
4. Comparison to Othinus #2
5. This quote.

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Summary/TL;DR:​

If accepted, the following note would appear as the explanation/justification for the resistance:

Note: Based off the author's comments that the transcendents could kill Othinus in the world she had destroyed and the fact that a necessary parameter for surviving Gungnir's attack requires one to leave human territory, Alice is hence possibly capable of surviving Othinus' destruction of the world via releasing her seal keeping her in the territory of humanity.

Agree: Aseka, StrangerALover
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Aseka]

Count me as agree.

 

[Rafi_BZ]

Aseka lol, I kind of agree.

 

[XDragnoir]

We already have an ongoing CRT to give her resistance to all that and more, why did you create another CRT to deal with the very same topic?

 

[Churronzon]

We already have an ongoing CRT to give her resistance to all that and more, why did you create another CRT to deal with the very same topic?

This topic is not in the CRT and I planned on making this its own thread to begin with. The conclusion of either CRT would not impact the other.

 

[XDragnoir]

This topic is not in the CRT and I planned on making this its own thread to begin with. The conclusion of either CRT would not impact the other.

The other CRT is trying to give her resistance to pretty much all hax in the verse, Phase Manipulation being among them.

Anyway, on the topic now:

In the case of Alice, the strongest and originator of all other transcendents, her seal/'Risk 4' comes in the form of the children's book, Adventures in Wonderland.

Iirc, we never saw Alice releasing her seal and Wonderland wasn't really confirmed to be it, that's just Aleister's theory (or was that quote from someone else?) and that's from GT7, so quite some time before GT10 where it was revealed that Alice (mainly the adult form, but still) is pretty much "beyond human level" by default and that she was the entire basis for the others' Risk 4s.

Even worse than that, Alice never used a book for any of her magic spells IIRC, she has a spell that was named after the book (Live Adventures in Wonderland) but I can't remember the spell ever being linked to a book directly, much less stated to be her seal and it definitely isn't the source of her resistances, with that comes the fact that this would have to be applied to all Transcendents as this is using Kamachi's quote as the entire proof for resistance, but the Transcendents definitely don't have anything backing it up and they being able to fight Othinus or resist Gungnir was never brought up in the actual volumes.

 

[Churronzon]

The other CRT is trying to give her resistance to pretty much all hax in the verse, Phase Manipulation being among them.

I'm genuinely confused on what you're on about. Resistance to phase manipulation and every hax isn't listed anywhere in that CRT. If you're so confident, can you at least tell me the mechanics for what you believe grants her the resistance to reality warping despite being killed by it already in her "normal" form when she's not leaving human territory?

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Iirc, we never saw Alice releasing her seal

I can't remember the spell ever being linked to a book directly, much less stated to be her seal

I already posted the scan explicitly calling her children's book as her seal, but I actually found another scan calling it a seal!
Her seal is linked to her children's book dress(see scans below) that is released whenever Adult/Backstage Alice appears wearing Sephirotic bondage, but even if that wasn't the case it wouldn't be important nor matter. The point is she has a seal that can be released. That much is indisputable.

• Her fairy tale dress tearing up is treated as allowing her to destroy the world.
• Her dress tearing is again treated as her power being unrestrained

Wonderland wasn't really confirmed to be it, that's just Aleister's theory (or was that quote from someone else?)

Nothing contradicts the scan(s) I posted.
Narration also described it as revealing the Transcendents secrets in that scene.

They were revealing the secrets of the Transcendents.

GT10 where it was revealed that Alice (mainly the adult form, but still) is pretty much "beyond human level" by default and that she was the entire basis for the others' Risk 4s.

That doesn't contradict my argument. Yes, that version would be treated as having her seal removed and would receive the resistance.

and it definitely isn't the source of her resistances

I never claimed this reasoning would provide every resistance.

with that comes the fact that this would have to be applied to all Transcendents

Sounds fire.

as this is using Kamachi's quote as the entire proof for resistance,

Along with the precedence set by the text establishing the necessary parameter to survive Gungnir.

but the Transcendents definitely don't have anything backing it up

Except for:

1. Aradia having the capability to one-shot a Magic God via her spell that continuously triples her strength with each good deed performed, which the Magic Gods themselves are unable to accomplish as they are stuck in an eternal stalemate and have been for at least a couple millennia.
2. Vidhatri has an explicit form of existence erasure that the rest of the verse (save Alice) doesn't possess.
3. Trismegistus is posited by the narrator to be able to apply his slashes to the entire universe, which is corroborated by one of his physiological attributes allowing him to be unfazed by slicing effects, including his own.
4. Mary has a complete universe inside her pocket reality.
5. The statement that the transcendents gave up some of the same total allotted stat points in every other category in order to min-max their abilities in a specific area compared to the Magic Gods who would have a balanced spread.

Based off this section of the reply, it seems your issue is moreso that you find it incredulous (excuse the buzzword) to apply it to the transcendents.

they being able to fight Othinus or resist Gungnir was never brought up in the actual volumes.

Doesn't make WoG worthless nor any potential headcanon more valid than the author's statements.

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm genuinely confused on what you're on about. Resistance to phase manipulation and every hax isn't listed anywhere in that CRT.

In case you didn't read the entire thread (or well, it is somewhat explained in the OP), it was agreed that Alice would receive resistance to any form of internal damage as a possibly in her thread, that would include Phase Manipulation (or default Reality Warping as a whole, given Aureolus also exists).

If you're so confident, can you at least tell me the mechanics for what you believe grants her the resistance to reality warping despite being killed by it already in her "normal" form when she's not leaving human territory?

Go read that thread, I guess, it was extensively discussed there.

Also, I really don't have to explain why she died during Othinus destruction, this entire deal comes from a retcon that Kamachi didn't address at any moment beyond that afterword, which, mind you, doesn't even directly say that it's a Risk 4/seal removal which would allow them to survive it.

I already posted the scan explicitly calling her children's book as her seal, but I actually found another scan calling it a seal!

I guess that's good enough? The problem with the other scan was that it was ultimately just Aleister's theory, unlike here.

Her seal is linked to her children's book dress(see scans below) that is released whenever Adult/Backstage Alice appears wearing Sephirotic bondage, but even if that wasn't the case it wouldn't be important nor matter. The point is she has a seal that can be released. That much is indisputable.

• Her fairy tale dress tearing up is treated as allowing her to destroy the world.
• Her dress tearing is again treated as her power being unrestrained

Sooo, the statements before these were wrong? Her real seal is a dress and not a book?

Or is her seal a book and the dress is something different from the seal all Transcendents use? Given the lack of a Risk 4 "chant" like the others, I'd say this is the case.

Nothing contradicts the scan(s) I posted.
Narration also described it as revealing the Transcendents secrets in that scene.

Sure.

That doesn't contradict my argument. Yes, that version would be treated as having her seal removed and would receive the resistance.

Why? As I said above, there's no mention of her Adult Form being a seal removal in all of GT10 AFAIK.

Not just that, as I said above the entire "Risk 4 can survive Gungnir" logic is flawed to begin with.

I never claimed this reasoning would provide every resistance.

I didn't express myself correctly, I meant to say that Live Adventures in Wonderland isn't implied to give her resistances of any kind and it is the one ability that was named after a children's book.

It's always about her power to destroy/alter things with it.

Along with the precedence set by the text establishing the necessary parameter to survive Gungnir.

Could you at least check the raws to see if at the least it is actually the same terminology that is being used in both cases?

Like, c'mon now, Kamachi stated several times that Alice is the one who has several resistances, but all of them also can resist MG powers of all things... because of one quote that doesn't mention Risk 4s to begin with and one vague af "leave human territory" that never was actually given any focus in the novels?

Except for:

1. Aradia having the capability to one-shot a Magic God via her spell that continuously triples her strength with each good deed performed, which the Magic Gods themselves are unable to accomplish as they are stuck in an eternal stalemate and have been for at least a couple millennia.

Her quote doesn't mention being able to oneshot "full power" MGs, which Kamachi usually does after their nerfs to differentiate their original power from the current ones.

And regardless, that's AP, not a resistance.

1. Vidhatri has an explicit form of existence erasure that the rest of the verse (save Alice) doesn't possess.

The above I can understand, but bringing this up is completely useless, what does this have to do with resistances?

1. Trismegistus is posited by the narrator to be able to apply his slashes to the entire universe, which is corroborated by one of his physiological attributes allowing him to be unfazed by slicing effects, including his own.

Same here, this has nothing to do with resisting Gungnir, does it?

1. Mary has a complete universe inside her pocket reality.

Okay?

1. The statement that the transcendents gave up some of the same total allotted stat points in every other category in order to min-max their abilities in a specific area compared to the Magic Gods who would have a balanced spread.

So what? Are the stats they "maxed" comparable to MGs? Because most of the time it doesn't seem so.

And how does that affect their resistances? Doesn't this mean some of the Transcendents would have maxed other things rather than resistances? As you probably know by now, there's little to no pattern or common points between what different Transcendents can do, I really fail to see how your claim that every Risk 4 allows them to resist Gungnir when some like Tribikos weren't even body upgrades to begin with.

Based off this section of the reply, it seems your issue is moreso that you find it incredulous (excuse the buzzword) to apply it to the transcendents.

No? Literally nothing you brought up other than maybe the last point (as it would be completely case by case, if we followed that last point) has anything to do with resistances.

If it had been properly explained like Alice's, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

Doesn't make WoG worthless nor any potential headcanon more valid than the author's statements.

First, as I said above the statement was as vague as a statement can be.

Second, death of the author is a thing, if an author claims something and nothing inside his works actually support his claim then whatever they said becomes pretty much unusable.

 

[Churronzon]

In case you didn't read the entire thread (or well, it is somewhat explained in the OP), it was agreed that Alice would receive resistance to any form of internal damage as a possibly in her thread, that would include Phase Manipulation (or default Reality Warping as a whole, given Aureolus also exists).

I did not read all the replies, no. Just the actual CRT

If it had been properly explained like Alice's, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

I wasn't aware Alice's reality warping resistance was properly explained so I'll go read the thread.

For now I'll just respond to the following:

Sooo, the statements before these were wrong? Her real seal is a dress and not a book?

If you read this scan, you'd see her dress is referring to the book.
"children's book dress"

I never meant to claim it was a physical book. I myself had initially interpreted it as a metaphor for her stories found in Adventures in Wonderland, but like I said, it doesn't matter what form her seal takes as long as she has one.

No? Literally nothing you brought up other than maybe the last point (as it would be completely case by case, if we followed that last point) has anything to do with resistances.

If it had been properly explained like Alice's, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

I misread what you wanted. Didn't know you were looking specifically for resistances. I thought you were saying Transcendents had nothing notable in scale going for them.

Second, death of the author is a thing, if an author claims something and nothing inside his works actually support his claim then whatever they said becomes pretty much unusable.

It's moreso if it's contradicted by the text, not if it's just not supported extensively.

 

[StrangerALover]

I think Alice survived nuked reality othinus because of her nature so i agreed

 

[Churronzon]

There's also Curtana and the MGs' Phase Control... the former I'd say is in a strange spot because while it can be used as internal damage when spawning inside the target, it usually isn't used like that, meanwhile the MGs (Othinus specifically) have affected Alice with their Phase Hax, so it's not something Alice resists 100% of the time but it was specifically noted by the author to be something she could resist, so these 2 habe to be indexed in their own way although I don't know how yet.

LMFAO. Brrooo you're using the same arguments I am. I just happened to also solve your issue you stated you didn't know how to resolve, without knowing.
That's insane
So with that, I see you covered the same things I did, but this topic definitely warrants its own thread considering it's controversial among supporters.

Kamachi explicitly stated Alice and the Transcendents could have directly fought/killed Othinus, which means that, at the very least, Alice would have to be resistant to her hax, as none of the other Transcendents really add anything to the fight that would help defeating Othinus.

As I said somewhere, not sure if here or in the general thread, if the Transcendents had any statement in the actual story supporting such a thing they would also get resistances, but in practice Alice is the only one who has Kamachi+novel saying she could survive Othinus,

Alice is not the only one. The transcendents as a whole have that statement. Like I actually gave you a straightforward conclusion on a silver platter, but you seem reluctant to accept it because it looks to apply to more characters than just Alice.

I starkly remember people arguing that Alice would not be able to kill Othinus on her own and all of the transcendents would need to work together. I know it's not your position, but it demonstrates people acknowledging Alice as not being the sole survivor.

* Light bulb pops up and I check Aradia's profile again* lmaooo. It's her current Risk 4 justification.

although I've seen many people try to use the quote to say all Risk 4s scale to Othinus and can resist her hax, but I really don't agree with it.

Holy shit it's spreading like wildfire

Occam's Razor, Alice is stated to resist every type of internal damage in the verse and she is stated to be able to fight/kill Othinus, the simplest and most logical conclusion one can draw from this is that she resists any internal damage Othinus can do, it's a complete different case from True Gremlin, a bunch of characters that have absolutely no mention of resisting anything.

Saying Alice could be affected by any kind of internal damage done by Othinus or anyone else is completely against the narrative and the statements we have about her.

Occam's Razor does not support reality warping being a "targetting internals ability". My proposal carries more weight considering it again satisfies the precedence set by the text and could apply to all of the characters the author states would survive.

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Could you at least check the raws to see if at the least it is actually the same terminology that is being used in both cases?

Here's the scan for NT9 if you want to MTL it or get someone to translate it.

据えて、上条当麻は心の中で思った。 (俺は特別な人間なんかじゃない。プロの魔術師相手に戦ったら普通に負けるかもしれない。 普通に真正面からぶつかれば、その「槍」の一撃から逃れる事などにもできなかっただろ う。防御を試みても、回避を試みても、生き残れる希望なんてどこにも見つからなかっただろ う。それはあらかじめ、「人の身では抗えない」というパラメータを設定された攻撃だ。人の 領域を出ない限り、たとえあの右方のフィアンマやオッレルスであっても為す術もなく粉除さ せられていただろう。 …………………その最大の効力は、目の当たりにした人間に抗う事を諦めさせる事。 百戦錬磨の英傑でさえも、それを見ただけで挑戦をやめて脚を折ってしまうほどの、圧側 的諦観を叩きつける事。 (言ったはずだぞ、オティヌス) 世界を丸ごと一つ犠牲に捧げる形で作り出された一本の巨大な「槍」、その先熾を静かに見 しかし、 どこにでもいる平凡な高校生なんぞに、乗り越えられるはずがない。 たとえ右手に特殊な力が宿っていたって、扱う暇もなく五体をすり識されていた事だろう。 おそらく。 神による破壊が最優先。

If you also want the raws from Genesis Testament, are you claiming Js06 got the terminology wrong seven times and would you want translations for each instance?
I only have the one from GT6

「解放、する･･････。リスク4、三重封印分解・人域離脱。この身を三相女神とするべくここに作用してッッッ!!!!!!」

Like, c'mon now, Kamachi stated several times that Alice is the one who has several resistances, but all of them also can resist MG powers of all things... because of one quote that doesn't mention Risk 4s to begin with and one vague af "leave human territory" that never was actually given any focus in the novels?

It's the final and most important characteristic of Gungnir that narration definitely drew attention to and Kamachi later decided to reuse the exact same terminology on.

We've seen weirder shit in Toaru, let's be real. Call it a false equivalency if you'd like, but this is the series where Accelerator can reflect multiversal attacks and be nearly killed by 9-B humans punching in a fancy manner and where the main character can fight gods in one volume and then lose a fistfight to a soldier in the next.

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I don't wish to misrepresent your position and am actually having fun with this debate, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems we both agree that Alice could survive, but disagree on the methods of doing so right?

If your reasoning is based off Alice having quotes saying she is immune to internal attacks hence she is resistant to reality warping, while mine is based off of them removing their seals and satisfying the parameters Gungnir requires, I have to say I still favor my conclusion and presumptuously consider it simpler to understand from an outside perspective with a single sentence that I provided in the summary.

 

[XDragnoir]

LMFAO. Brrooo you're using the same arguments I am. I just happened to also solve your issue you stated you didn't know how to resolve, without knowing.

No? I am using the same quotes, definitely, we don't have the same view on that specific quote tho and I was using it as support for one specific resistance, rather than it being the base for my argument.

That's insane
So with that, I see you covered the same things I did, but this topic definitely warrants its own thread considering it's controversial among supporters.

You literally didn't even bring up resistance to internal damage quotes nor the ones about her being built different, again, we are trying to reach the same place through pretty different paths

Alice is not the only one. The transcendents as a whole have that statement. Like I actually gave you a straightforward conclusion on a silver platter, but you seem reluctant to accept it because it looks to apply to more characters than just Alice.

And the Transcendents as a whole don't have any support for that whatsoever, the best support is the "leaving human territory thing" which sucks because their Risk 4s are more inconsistent than most other things in the entire verse.

If Kamachi's quote had at the very least directly said they would survive had they used Risk 4, but it doesn't, Risk 4s and seals aren't anywhere in that quote.

Occam's Razor does not support reality warping being a "targetting internals ability".

You know Reality Warping can be targeted, right? Like, that's nothing new, Aureolus "die" and Othinus' particle break down are prime examples of this.

Which, mind you, is one of the many explanations I tried to find for Alice dying and being resistant at the same time, Othinus' world destruction definitely wasn't a targeted effect so it just straight up isn't included in the shit Alice should resist.

My proposal carries more weight considering it again satisfies the precedence set by the text and could apply to all of the characters the author states would survive.

I don't get what you mean here. Are you saying your CRT is more valid because it applies to more characters or something like that?

Personally, I think both CRTs are fine on a surface level, the problem is that the moment it starts to affect several characters the amount of evidence needed inherently becomes higher.

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Here's the scan for NT9 if you want to MTL it or get someone to translate it.

If you also want the raws from Genesis Testament, are you claiming Js06 got the terminology wrong seven times and would you want translations for each instance?
I only have the one from GT6

Wtf? I didn't claim anything at all, what? I just literally asked if you had checked the raws, given, you know, you're using specific wording in a work translated from japanese to make an argument.

And yeah, it uses the same Kanji, so the connection is probably intentional, still the problem of the Risk 4s having no pattern in how they work and again, Kamachi didn't say Risk 4 or even seals in general had anything to do with it.

We've seen weirder shit in Toaru, let's be real. Call it a false equivalency if you'd like, but this is the series where Accelerator can reflect multiversal attacks and be nearly killed by 9-B humans punching in a fancy manner and where the main character can fight gods in one volume and then lose a fistfight to a soldier in the next.

Okay? Yeah, I see no reason for why you're bringing that up.

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I don't wish to misrepresent your position and am actually having fun with this debate, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems we both agree that Alice could survive, but disagree on the methods of doing so right?

If your reasoning is based off Alice having quotes saying she is immune to internal attacks hence she is resistant to reality warping, while mine is based off of them removing their seals and satisfying the parameters Gungnir requires, I have to say I still favor my conclusion and presumptuously consider it simpler to understand from an outside perspective with a single sentence that I provided in the summary.

I mean, at best I can see the Transcendents having this as a possibly just like Alice will have and that's it, I definitely don't like how "in the air" these statements are when it comes to indexing, but I definitely can see the connections, it's just another case of Kamachi's not explaining anything properly and leaving it open for... 6 volumes.

 

[Churronzon]

I don't get what you mean here. Are you saying your CRT is more valid because it applies to more characters or something like that?

sorry for repeating myself but it's because mine provides an explanation for why the transcendents would survive as a whole according to the author.

I mean, at best I can see the Transcendents having this as a possibly just like Alice will have and that's it,

I wouldn't argue anything else

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So could you summarize your position? How would you word it on a profile?

 

[XDragnoir]

So could you summarize your position? How would you word it on a profile?

Idk, maybe word it like "leaving human territory should allow them to survive Gungnir" or something along these lines.