Tier Change for Trigon and Raven

[RavenSupreme]

Trying to make it as short and reasonable as possible. Should be easy to follow, given the new developments in Rebirth issues post January 2018.

Trigo is currently rated at least low 2C. Raven is currently rated Unknown. I propose a change.

-

In the new 2018 run "The demon: Hell is earth" Trigons son, Belial, has sucessfully taken over Hell from Lucifer Morningstar.

While the first issues in January made this vague (no actual action was shown, Lucifer was simply caged, could be a ruse etc.) the latest issue from April 2018 show actual feats of Belial significantly hurting Lucifer, with his Hellfire ,then transforming him into a wolf, in the process mindcontrolling him.

-

Raven, Belials sister, at her peak was consistently portrayed greatly superior to all of her brothers, including Belial. Especially important was her being able of tanking Belials Hellfire .

Using this new fluff we dont have to consider older things as outlier anylonger.

Especially Raven tanking Zauriels Sword head one, which managed to hurt the Spectre in one of his strongest hosts Asmodel.

The infamous "million universes" colliding between Trigons sons (including Belial)

Trigon soloing the JLA and JSA , including pre-crisis Superma and Doctor Fate .

Raven at her best has always been implied to surpass her father . However she is a Teen Titans character, therefore lacks oft he same problem the Spectre does ― getting nerfed to advance the plot.

Other things need to be brought into the equation as well. Not as pure feats but to understand the actual level of power in the DC hierarchy, Trigon posseses.

Trigon was so well known in heavens that his daughter, Raven, was teleported away by the Presence

And of course Trigon challenged the Presence himself.

All these things so far have always been strong hints at a possible Tier change. With the new run from this year it finally introduces legit feats to apply them.

-

Unlike Lucifer however, Trigon, Belial and Raven are affected by reboots. As such the 1A rating is out of the question.

My proposal therefore would be to give Trigon the same tierhe already got compared to , the Spectres 2A. This comparison stemed from a credible source as well.

And for Raven: Varies. 2-A at her peak, but usually qualifies for much lower levels.

 

[Frantzy12]

I personally agree with these changes.

 

[Wokistan]

This seems good.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that 2-A might be acceptable, but definitely not 1-A by scaling from the full totalities of The Presence and Lucifer, rather than mere avatars/manifestations.

 

[Antvasima]

You need to ask Matthew to comment here in any case.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Yeha. Marvel and DC powerscaling doesnt work that one-dimensional. The instances with Lucifer and the Presence are not meant to push for a similar scaling but merely to justify the proposed changes. Basically its to underline the legitimacy without demanding ludicrous stuff (being 1A).

Im gonna invite him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree. Lucifer has let other people take over hell intentionally before.

 

[RavenSupreme]

I disagree. Lucifer has let other people take over hell intentionally before.

when he left hell, i recall that, in the original lucifer run. but i dont recall an instance where an usurper actually managed to take the control when he was reigning king of hell.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also this New 52 Lucifer shit is non-canon. It's probably not the real Lucifer Morningstar, but another character with the same name. That's happened a lot before. There's been plenty of Lucifers and Satans in DC.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew. I think that there was a New 52 Stormwatch story in which a Lucifer was beaten by King Arthur.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Also this New 52 Lucifer shit is non-canon. It's probably not the real Lucifer Morningstar, but another character with the same name. That's happened a lot before. There's been plenty of Lucifers and Satans in DC.

Its a 2018 issue. where the DC Universe is already in complete Rebirth reboot. Its not New 52.

There is only one "Hell" and one "Heaven", regardless the main continuity either way. New 52, Rebirth etc. Always have been only one Heaven and Hell. All other shenanigans have been seperat realms.

 

[RavenSupreme]

I agree with Matthew. I think that there was a New 52 Stormwatch story in which a Lucifer was beaten by King Arthur.

Point taken for The new 52, where shit has been crazy.

This aint a New 52 issue however.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Vertigo and the regular DC seem to use very different scaling, but if Matthew thinks that 2-A is acceptable, I am fine with it as well.

 

[RavenSupreme]

2A would be my proposal, given the new intel. However I am open for alternative suggestions from people who are similary knowledgeable about the DC verse and how they would treat the matter.

My suggestion aint a set in stone demand, especially for Raven. Given the fluctuation in the Verse as a whole.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still disagree with 2-A, same.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Whats your suggestion? I take it you are well versed in DC, what would be your alternate angle on the tierings?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The best feat is the Millions of Universes one which is 2-B.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Especially in DC and Marvel this stuff is always all over the place. I remember we had some regular humans or so who held Dream of the Endless for decades or so captive. Didnt made them 1B either, so I can see where you are coming from.

Would you consider Raven in White/Trigon posessed to get the scaling as well, and would she need different keys for it?

 

[Antvasima]

So 2-B then?

 

[RavenSupreme]

Seems so, tho I prefer to wait for Matthews final input, as he seems to know his shit for DC.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've seen people not consider it 2-B. The universes were over the room as a whole, which was multi-dimensional and thus much larger than what it appeared to be. It wasn't countless universes on them.

 

[Sandman31]

The Spectre's so inconsistent that I dont think we should scale anyone from him

 

[RavenSupreme]

Yeha, Trigon is compared to the Spectre but we dont know the full extent of what specific version it refers to. 2A is just the highest he here is used at - hence I used that as the proposal for simplicity. Whether or not the comparison can be made is still up for discussion - some people would think so, but when others disagree, they have a point.

As for the room thing, I dont see a problem for settling on it, given that our 2B rules only speak from a measly 1000 normal universes, which is a reasonable approach seeing how millions of em collide through them. The 2A thing is where we begin to enter "infinite" and "5D axises". So eh.

 

[Sandman31]

Well, those who scale to the Spectre will only have Unknown rating, just like the Batman Who Laughs

 

[RavenSupreme]

Thats not really comparable, as the Spectre comparison is only one key part of defining the tier here. And frankly, if it were just the single one, an Unknown would be definetly appropriate. But it aint (see OP). So for this thread its only one argument to underline whatever tier we settle on.

 

[Sandman31]

Not saying that he should be Unknown, I know that thats not the only point you brought up, just saying that I dont think we can scale him from Spectre

 

[RavenSupreme]

Im leaving this for a couple more days so people can add in their thoughts. Apply all changes afterwards. Especially for the "unknown" thats a little work either way.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Alright I guess we can wrap things up here and apply the changes for this issue to be resolved.

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably wait for Matthew to evaluate if 2-B is okay.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've seen people not consider it 2-B. The universes were over the room as a whole, which was multi-dimensional and thus much larger than what it appeared to be. It wasn't countless universes on them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so there weren't more than 1000 universes?

 

[RavenSupreme]

I have replied to that point. I dont see a problem for settling on it, given that our 2B rules only speak from a measly 1000 normal universes, which is a reasonable approach seeing how millions of em collide through them. The 2A thing is where we begin to enter "infinite" and "5D axises". So eh.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I can be okay with 2-B I guess. Althought that is a New 52 feat.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that the New 52 and Post-Crisis histories have largely been merged together in Rebirth.

 

[RavenSupreme]

I would be ok with 2B as well. Currently in rebirth Trigon is nothing but an influence but he has yet to appear in some form as a major Plot point / device. When that time comes I would maybe re-open the topic for update purposes. While the Teen Titans are a Shadow of their former greatness for now, I am of the believe that due to the whole Dr. Manhatten shenanigans other villains will have their time to shine in a (vsbattle) way we havent seen so far, including Tri/Rae (thinking about DK Metal as an early indicator for example).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so Trigon and Raven should be upgraded then? Who is willing to perform the change?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It wouldn't scale to Raven however. Raven should be left alone for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Why should it not scale to Raven at her peak?

 

[RavenSupreme]

So the changes for Trigon can be applied I guess. Enough time has passed.

As for Raven, due to her implied peak her getting the scaling as well should be warranted. Although simply "2B" is not true to her showings in many issues. As such my proposal would be "Varies up to at least 2B (Stronger than all of her brothers, implied to eventually surpass her father).