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Tier 0?

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I came across this and haven't read the novel but I'm just curious.

I think this is probably tier 0 but what do y'all think?

“I don’t know. It seems all contradictions.” Truth shrugged.

“Really? Where?”

“I am the disgraced and the exalted one? I am merciful and I am cruel?” Truth asked.

“What if I were neither disgraced nor exalted? Would that resolve the contradiction? Or what if I was both merciful and cruel?”

“How could that be possible?”

“Simple. I am not this.” The prophet waved at themselves. “As you are not this.” They waved at Truth. “Since I am not this dross, I am that which is perfect, eternal, and free. But that spark, that perfect self, is trapped in this ball of mud and dung. So I am both disgraced and exalted, and I am neither of those things, for what I truly am is perfection, which is beyond honor and shame. Likewise, I am merciful and cruel, for my perfection incorporates those ideas but sublimates them.”

The prophet took another look at Truth. “'Sublimates' means to improve or refine. I’m using it to mean that my perfection perfects the concepts and includes them in its totality.”
“Oh wow! A lousy craftsman! Well that just explains everything. No, slapnuts, that doesn’t fly. The Craftsman had to come from somewhere. At some point there was a transition from your realm of perfection to a realm of imperfection. Which means that God, the Perfect Realm or however you want to construct it, cannot be both infinitely wise and infinitely good. If it was infinitely wise, it would never allow an imperfect world to come into being, because it would be introducing evil to the universe to no purpose. Likewise, if it was infinitely good, even if it was unskillful in its actions, it would take steps to ensure there was no evil.”

Truth did his own, mocking, grand wave to the world. “We got an imperfect world AND evil. The only possible consequence of your premise is that an infinitely powerful god felt that it would be most pleasing if humanity was created to suffer for its enjoyment. Your Creator God is a monster. Not ignorant, cruel.”

“Spare me the theatrics,” The Prophet said, raising their hands theatrically. “Humanity is never going to be able to fully comprehend the mind of God- it is literally, definitionally, beyond us. We can only grab on to bits of it through reason and mystic revelation that transcends reason. That’s it. That’s what we get! God’s thought process behind the universe, the realms of existence emanating out from that perfect monad, the beings that inhabit those realms, and yes, even the blasted Craftsman, all of them, are beyond human comprehension.”
The Prophet’s voice became sonorous. “The material world is an illusion, a faint approximation of the true reality of the Pleroma- the vast, true universe that exists above the muck of the world. The higher we raise ourselves to that infinite perfection, the more powerful our magic and our arts become. By raising our wisdom, by polishing our souls, we can escape the mud. No matter how many lifetimes it takes, such must be our purpose. And in the process, we become God’s answer to your question- Why would a perfect God create an imperfect world?”
“Heh. Let me save you a little time. You know what’s on the other side of all that celestial machinery? At the origin of the Pleroma? Once you get past the Archons and Aeons and Angels and Demiurge and heavenly demons and the Ogdoad and all that other bullshit? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. A void that obliterates meaning. I can’t even call it a screaming void, because it obliterates that too. I have seen it. I have had a divine revelation, oh yes! I have had my own enlightenment. And you know what I learned? There is a God, and it destroys us.

“All that meaning we accumulated in life, everything we learned, everything we achieved, it all gets ground away, over and over again, until we finally return to the void and are obliterated. That’s it. That’s the end of the ******* celestial road. You keep climbing higher and higher, losing more and more, until you are completely unmade. So **** doing it the ‘right way.’ **** a quiet life and a peaceful death. **** God, the angels, the devils, and **** you too if you think I’m going to feel bad about any of this. My only regret is that ******* space worm escaped before I could refine her into a new body. Now I have to spend who-knows-how-many years having a nap, waiting to build up the empire all over again.”

There's probably a lot more stuff I'm missing lol.
 
What bout this

The Prophet sneered. “Let me lay it out for you then. This world is amazing. But it isn’t perfect. That much we can agree on. It’s changing all the time, there is pain and ignorance and all that. If it was perfect, it would be unchanging and eternal, and infinitely good. Since it’s not, we can say that it’s not perfect and to some degree, not good. Good in the sense of having achieved the highest degree of virtue.”



“Oh very logical. Super stuff. You just said that what is good is that which is beloved by the Gods, and since this world isn’t good, it isn’t loved by the Gods. Either that, or the Gods were unable to make a perfect world, meaning they themselves were less than perfect and therefore less than infinitely good. You sure are determined to catch a blasphemy charge, huh?” Truth rolled his eyes and started slowly applauding.



One enterprising soul in a local tavern had set out a slate and was keeping a tally of points on either side. The slaves were circulating, filling the wine bowls of spectators as raucous cheers and boos started breaking out here and there.



This was, after all, Alexandria. Such arguments were common entertainment here at the crossroads of thought.



“Oh spare me your cheap piety! Naturally we can say that God is infinitely perfect and infinitely good because we can conceive of perfect things. Rationally, if a thing can be conceived of, it must exist on some level, and since it cannot exist in this world, it must exist in a higher world. The rational outcome is, of course, a realm of only perfect, and perfectly true, things from which all things are derived. A realm that is, of itself, God.” The Prophet ignored the flatbread, waving their finger in Truth’s face.
“Alright, so you can imagine the sand in the desert without any trouble, right? Right. But you would have a hard time imagining each individual grain of sand in the desert. That’s way too many. Way more than you could count in your lifetime, let alone keep all of them in your mind at the same time.”

Truth nodded again. “And this is a cycle?”

“No.” The prophet looked up to the heavens and pressed on. “This is the universe. The universe is everything. It is the desert AND it is all the grains of sand that make up the desert AND it is the idea of all those grains of sand making up a thing called the desert. It is the fixed memory of a boy called Truth staring at a patch of millions of individual grains of sand and going ‘Yep, desert.’ All that is the universe.”

“And you telling me about it is the universe too?”

“Yes.” The prophet smiled slightly. “The stars in the sky, the sky, the sun, the clouds, every single thing you can see or imagine, every single thing that is is the universe.”
“Sure, him. Her. Whatever. Look. When we talk about “God,” we, all of us, are like you. Trying to imagine the desert as all those little grains of sand is impossible. We just lump it together and don’t think too hard about what it actually means.”

“Alright?”

“So think about “God.” Something big enough to create everything. Something strong enough to create everything. To rule over life and death-” Truth raised his hand. The Prophet drooped. “You are poly- that is, you worship multiple gods?”

“No, just the Great God of Storms, but there are others, you know. Wouldn’t want to get married without the Mother of Rivers’ blessing after the feast.” Truth explained.

“Yeah, fair.” The Prophet rubbed their eyes and looked over at the young man who, against all available evidence, was going to be their all time best student and follower.

“But what’s the secret?” Truth asked.

Secrets, plural, and the first one is that you can’t just be told. You have to get your own understanding of them. Not just thinking it through, but divine revelation, something that sears a piece of the mystery straight into your mind and soul.”

Truth looked rocked, then narrowed his eyes. “But you can’t eat God’s brain, right? So you can’t do that knowledge cramming thing you were talking about before. Which is why it’s a secret.”

“Yes! Exactly.” The Prophet offered their palms to the sky in a gesture of thanks.

“And your hymn starts making more sense once you have had some of these revelations?”

“Also yes.”

“Ok… so what’s the universe? Just everything?”

“No. Well, alright, yes, it is “everything,” but “everything” is a lot more than you are thinking. Like, do you think a sheep knows what the desert is? Or does it just know it can’t find grass or water?” The Prophet asked.

“Can’t find grass or water.”

“Right. Because the idea of a “desert” does not exist for it. It literally cannot think of something that way. Same thing with humans. Just too small, too simple to really wrap your head around the concept of “everything.” Because if you really could understand “everything” you would be God.”

“Why? I can’t put a baby in a mountain’s belly.” Truth cocked his head to the side, then frowned. “Probably. I haven’t tried. It looks uncomfortable, and I am saving myself for marriage.”

“Because you would understand everything, including how to do that. Or why you shouldn’t do that. Or what would happen if you tried to knock up a mountain. Not imagining it, knowing it. Because you know the past and the future too, as it is part of ‘everything.’ The story of every single grain of sand, everywhere, and the story of every living thing to ever have looked at that single grain of sand. You would know EVERYTHING. And nothing mortal can do that. So you would be more than mortal. More than a demon. You would be God.”
The terms are pretty unquantified here, so it’s definitely reducible to 1-A I’d say
 
If it isn't 0 still then it's most definitely High 1-A since God is completely above the material hierarchy of realness, with degrees of realness being completely subject to his mind, and possesses an otherness to it rather than a simple +1
 
It’s so funny too because Aquinas holds that this specific argument is untenable because you can’t comprehend of God to begin with.

But even weirder enough, the author holds:
Rationally, if a thing can be conceived of, it must exist on some level
Which I’m not even sure if this would be holding up existence as a predicate or not lol. “on some level” is is being too vague for me here
 
If it isn't 0 still then it's most definitely High 1-A since God is completely above the material hierarchy of realness, with degrees of realness being completely subject to his mind, and possesses an otherness to it rather than a simple +1
Maybe I am too tired. But i don’t see this
 
Maybe I am too tired. But i don’t see this
I didn't share every context.

“Your hand is your hand, but the concept, the idea of your hand exists too, right? It’s the thing you grab stuff with. All the stuff, all the grabbing. Like, if you tried to pinch a star at night, you know you are really just playing a trick with perspective and you can’t actually pick up a star. But, theoretically, at a staggeringly high level, that is a thing you could actually do with the Meditations.”

“Prager’s yellow teeth!”

“Because what the spell actually does is it makes you a little more ‘real’ than everything else around you. Or maybe you could think of it as conferring a … higher rank in the material hierarchy? It’s not omnipotent, obviously. You need to convince the universe your conception is more real than the existing conception of whatever. Every top-quality body-refinement spell does some version of this, by the way. Just so happens that the Meditations is focused on it. And dirt cheap.”
The Meditations of Valentinian. Visualizing the perfected version of yourself you wanted to bring into the world. Imposing it on the world. Becoming more real than the real. A completely self focused spell. It was… interesting in that way. Every other spell in his arsenal was about changing the world around him, or how the world reacted to him. The Meditations didn’t give a damn about the world. The Meditations…

He let the iron horse drift to a stop by the verge. Over and over he had experienced that alienating sense of unreality. That the world was paper thin, an illusion. A demonic lie. Something to be overcome. And the Meditations had gotten there first.

What was the premise of the Meditations? That, with meditation and visualization, a mage could reinforce their own existence to the point where they could snatch the stars out of the sky. A flip of the hand could open valleys, a downturned palm could smooth away mountains. The mage was realer than the world he lived in. If only they could see it. If only they could unleash the divinity within themselves. The world offered the mage nothing. Everything they needed to achieve Godhood was within.
“Summon humanoid system interface. Hey, explain why I am somehow magic-resistant.” Truth was filled with piss and vinegar after his nap.

The System growled. “The point of body cultivation and everyone has been telling you this from the first time you heard about it, the whole damn point is making you more real than the things around you. BUT. The universe is real. It’s really damn real. It’s so real, it’s very literally the thoughts of God the Creator made manifest. And God really believes in their own work. Although this shithole is obviously quite a number of iterations down.”

“I am… locally overruling the will of God with body cultivation?” Truth looked askance.

“No, of course not, Stupid. You are just attuning yourself to a higher degree of reality. All still God’s creation, just a better quality part of it. However, your degree of attunement is small, and, again, God’s belief in their creation, even at this crummy level, is substantial.” The System’s voice dripped condescension.
“Your belief in your own creation, your concept of your body, by means of the transformation provided by the Daily Meditations of Valentinian, fueled by the Cosmic Energy provided by your astral magic cultivation, elevates the different parts of you that your body cultivation refines. You think your hand is so tough that a griddle can’t burn you, because your magic makes it so. You really, genuinely believe that. Because you have reason to. Because you have seen just how damage resistant the Meditations have made your skin in the desert. So you slap that ****** down and goddamn if you aren’t right. It only works up to a point. A magic fire, a much hotter griddle, getting hit by a wagon crossing the street, yeah, you are going to get hurt. Because the local universe can still overrule your weak-ass conception of how that’s going to go.”

“Same deal with magic, I guess. Thanks to the Meditations, I know I can resist physical damage. It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine resisting magical damage.” Truth muttered.

“Except, and I cannot emphasize this enough, imagination is just the start of it. You need belief, rooted in knowledge taken from a personal revelation, powerful enough to forcibly reshape your reality with your magic. It’s why the Meditations are called Meditations.” The System emphasized the point repeatedly. “It’s your magic doing the reshaping, but the belief gives it form. And since magic fundamentally operates on a higher level of reality than your mudball rock, resisting it is also much harder. I swear, if you trap me for an eternity in your corpse because you “Believe in the power of imagination,” I will spend every second torturing you.”
Turn around. See the unreal for what it was. Except it wasn’t ‘unreal,’ was it? You could call it an illusion, all the invisible walls we build for ourselves and treat like they were holding us prisoner, but that lived experience was still as real as anything. And the ducks might be more real than the water they were swimming through, but didn’t they still float? The water was real enough to hold them up.

“We are seeing the shadows. We are the shadows. Our lives are the shaped by forces we cannot perceive, and because of that, our whole understanding of the world is built on shaky facts.” He started nodding to himself. “And because of that we decide what is and isn’t possible, what is and isn’t moral. Or fair. Or our fault. I’m guessing God is the fire in this metaphor?”

“For once, no. Wisdom.”

“Ah. Well. Nobody ever accused me of having too much of that.”

“For a clay doll, you’re doing fine.”

Truth smiled a little and ducked his head. The rough man ran his dirty fingers over the dog. The dog seemed quite happy about this, and rolled onto his side. More pets were, apparently, required.

“So What I think is real is the shadows on the wall, and what’s actually real is what I see when I turn around, but since I’m seeing my own shadow on the wall, the me that thinks it’s all real isn’t the real me either. The real me is the me watching my shadow. Which would be true for everyone, I’m guessing. So. You know. Awkward question incoming.”
 
It’s so funny too because Aquinas holds that this specific argument is untenable because you can’t comprehend of God to begin with.

But even weirder enough, the author holds:

Which I’m not even sure if this would be holding up existence as a predicate or not lol. “on some level” is is being too vague for me here
Well God here is still incomprehensible. These are just the best ways you can understand God, because God regardless obliterates all meaning you can ascribe to it. And you unite with God through a complete lack of attributes/meaning.
 
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It’s so funny too because Aquinas holds that this specific argument is untenable because you can’t comprehend of God to begin with.

But even weirder enough, the author holds:

Which I’m not even sure if this would be holding up existence as a predicate or not lol. “on some level” is is being too vague for me here
look at this shit bro 😭
“The notion that everything exists in a fixed timeless moment, a single complete unity of everything, denying even the possibility of change or motion, flies in the face of our common experience. It is also, quite obviously, true.” The old man said “kindly.”

Even Zeno had the decency to wince at that.

“Oh, very obvious. So obvious, you have the Goddess Night appear to explain it to you. Let me summarize, and you tell me if I missed anything.”

The old man nodded.

“The universe, true reality, is eternal because what is, exists, and if what is came to be, then it would have to come from something out of nothing for no reason, which is a logical impossibility. Likewise, since it has always existed, there would be no reason for it ever not to exist because the something that could destroy everything would still be something which is part of everything and would therefore destroy itself before it could destroy everything, which is a logical impossibility.”

Truth took a deep breath. “Likewise, since true reality is, and is everything, then it isn’t many little things but one thing, complete and whole. There is nothing but the completeness of everything. Continuing this logic, motion is also an illusion. Since the totality is complete and perfect, it is an unchanging sphere. It has no reason to change or move, therefore, it does not change or move. Our perception of change and motion, like our perception of creation and destruction, are illusions.”

“You are skipping an awful lot, but I suppose you have caught the gist of the Path of Conviction.” The glint in the old man’s eye had been joined by an increasingly nasty grin.

“So the first, most obvious question is, do you believe any of this horseshit, and second, are you just ******* with the Pythagorians and Milensians, or what?”

“Let’s go in reverse order. I am not so dull as to do only one thing with a line. Consider this- When you think, you think of something; you are attaching the name of something to it. Thought and language require objects outside themselves as a referent. Since you can think of it whenever you like, whatever can be thought of or spoken of must be eternal. Therefore, there can be no change, since change consists in things coming into being or ceasing to be.”

Truth rubbed his forehead. ”Not helping. Are you saying the argument has nothing to do with Thales’ notion of the material world?”

“I’m saying it is both an appeal to pure logic and, yes, screwing with those morons.”

“Fantastic. Super. And the whole Proem and Way of Inquiry bit that sounds like you lifted it from the Cult of Apollo or Orpheus?”

“The absolute literal truth, as best I could record it.”

That got a double take from Truth.

“Pardon?”

“That happened. I described it as best I could, but… it was beyond me. I can only comprehend and put into words the barest fragment of what she showed me. The Goddess Night was wisdom herself, and as a lover of wisdom, I was granted as much gnosis as I could endure.”

“That the world is an illusion?”

“What is, is real. What we think “the world” is, is an illusion. I spent most of the poem describing the illusion as best I could, to stop people making aggressively stupid mistakes and hopefully leading them back to the Path of Conviction,” The old man said. “Almost everyone sees as a mortal and thinks as a mortal. Hard to teach them to think like the Goddess.”

“The Path of Conviction, not reason, yet you argue in favor of pure reason being more “real” than experience. This feast. This flesh. This conversation. All illusions.”

“Yes. At a certain point, gnosis, personal knowledge beyond pure reason, is required. A revelation of the truth.”

“Faith in pursuit of pure reason. An odd idea. One might even say it was contradictory.”

“Not at all. Those who love wisdom find much to love in all parts of existence. From the uses of plants, to medicine, to law, to the nature of the gods, mathematics, pure reason, and esoteric magic.”

“Magic?”

“Certainly. Every serious thinker I know of also was a devoted researcher of magic. Pythagoras, ass that he was, built a whole damn cult around his revelations. Do you think they sit around going, “Hooray for geometry?”

“Yes.”

There was a pause.

“Alright, yes, they do sit around going “hooray for geometry,” when not getting lightheaded from their own anti-bean vegetarianism. Put another way, do you really think they don’t use spells? They use them all the time. Covering up murders, mostly, I expect.”

“To be a lover of wisdom, to pursue reason, must require the hunter to arm himself with spells.” Truth looked skeptical.

“One way to put it. What more can I say? The Goddess of Wisdom revealed the unity behind the illusion. We may reason our way back to that unity, but until we can do so, we are trapped in the illusion. And while what is real is unchangeable, the unreal is changeable, by whatever means suits you.”
It's literally just parmenidean. But I think High 1-A+ (type 2) is guaranteed.
 
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“No, I do not. That’s what’s so terrifying. White light contains every color within it. Even more so than the Sun, it fits my imagination of God. Infinite variation sublimated into a single, seamless, perfect, whole. And the only fault in that infinite perfection, the only stain on that pure white, is me.”

“Sounds kind of egotistical.”

“Just my own perspective. I know perfectly well I’m not special in the grand scheme of things. But it did make something very plain. I am always alone, and never alone. The fact that I am capable of thinking both “I” and “alone” proves just how far I am from the infinite, while immersed within that infinite.

So… why get close to other little blots in the light? They are as limited and alone as I am. Nothing will be gained by clumping together, as twice nothing remains nothing. I should just remain in awe and terror at the infinitely surrounding light. It was that moment, I think, when I lost my final trace of empathy.” Mr. Black’s hands never stopped moving, fixing his vestments and trying to wear the surplice just-so as he looked intently in the polished obsidian mirror.
 
That can either be 1-A or High 1-A+.

(Also, The Fireman would be High 1-A (Type 1))
 
Which I’m not even sure if this would be holding up existence as a predicate or not lol. “on some level” is is being too vague for me here
“But we are God. We are everything, everywhere, forever. All thought, all matter, everything. We are the essence before existence, the universal predicate. We have lost nothing of ourselves in creating the universe, nor could we lose something of ourselves. Every great crime, every act of charity and mercy, it’s all us. It was always going to happen. It always did happen. It’s always happening. Because we contain all time, too, as well as existing outside of time. We are every meaning, and therefore, when some tiny speck of our infinity tries to comprehend that impossible enormity, it can only reach one conclusion.” Nag-Hamadi invited him to finish the thought.
This might be something too.
The first amongst them was the sun itself- not merely a collection of boiling gasses, but the very essence of that yellow disk in the sky. Perfectly round. Infinitely mighty. Not God, but modeled upon that universal perfection. Infinite in all ways, endless power, endless endurance, the beginning and end of all things, most particularly life. It was indifferent to anything external to itself, because it was perfectly self-sufficient. Heat, light and life were merely emmanations caused by its existence. They certainly weren’t gifts. They were the breath it exhaled, consumed by hungry trees.
 
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