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Tier 0 Force

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Re5yh said:
not yet
Click to expand...
You should keep bumping every day no one responds otherwise this thread will get buried somewhere. Also tag more mods and admins on their message walls, there hasn’t been any opposition to this and its been going for months
(Also looks like Fire Man agrees? Add his vote to the crt since he is an admin)
 
I'm breaking down the scans associated with each statement.

Boundless (
  • 1
    • The Force is an infinite[3],
      • “An infinite mystery is the Force.” “Much to learn, there still is.” "Infinite knowledge…” “Infinite time, does that require.”
    • all-encompassing[4]
      • "All is one, and one, therefore, is all. No duality exists in this statement. This is how you must think. This is what guides you, what tells you how to conduct yourself. This is the Force, the energy that lives in everything, that is existence itself—"
    • oneness
      • "The Force is one. The Force is everything and everything is the Force. The Force does not take sides. The Force does not even have sides." "The Force defies explanation."
    • beyond and utterly[5]
      • "It has no separate components." "The Force is everything."
    • devoid of duality,
      • "All is one, and one, therefore, is all. No duality exists in this statement. This is how you must think. This is what guides you, what tells you how to conduct yourself. This is the Force, the energy that lives in everything, that is existence itself—"
    • as well as natural, spiritual,
      • "a natural and a mystical presence"
    • and metaphysical
      • "the Darkshear—described as a piercing metaphysical spear of midnight black."
    • separation
      • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
    • and differentiation.
      • "Barriss frowned. “Jedi refer to the ‘light side’ and the ‘dark side,’ but really, these are only words, and the Force is beyond words. It is not evil, just as it isn’t good—it simply is what it is.""
  • 2
    • Both the Light and Dark sides of the Force, respectively, are nothing more than words of ignorance to the Force's[6]
      • "The Force is one, Jacen Solo. The Force is everything, and everything is the Force. I’ve told you already: the Force does not take sides. The Force does not even have sides." "The Force is one." “Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand.”
    • fundamentally unknowable nature,
      • "all interpretations that have been and will be made of the Force are ultimately not the Force. The interpretations are something other than the Force, nothing more than feeble thoughts and ideas. This is how concepts such as the Living Force are born—by sentient beings attempting to grasp the Force."
    • which exceeds,
      • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
    • as well as contains all of the supposedly distinct aspects of existence.
      • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
  • 3
    • The Force is both within and without, limitless, sublime, and wholly beyond true conception[7] ,
      • "the Force itself in its beautiful infinite entirety, a thing both within and without, limitless and sublime and wholly beyond comprehension."
    • and is ultimately
      • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
    • and fundamentally distinct from
      • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
    • all conceptualizations imposed upon it by the life which exists throughout it[8],
      • "To love any is to love all, for none can exist without every other. The Universe. The Force. All is one." "
      • "We are One. And Jacen cannot tell if those words come from him to the World Brain, or from the World Brain to him, for Jacen and the World Brain are only different faces of the same thing. Call it the Universe, or the Force, or Existence: those are only words. They are half truths. Less. They are lies. The truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it."
  • 4
    • Whether it be as a non-sentient energy field governed by Midi-Chlorians, the sum and totality of all creation, an eternal entity, knowing and unknowable,
      • It may be a nonsentient energy field, the sum of all creation. It may be an eternal entity, knowing and unknowable. It may be both of these and more; it may be something else entirely. The only certain truth is that the Force exists and is omnipresent."
    • the universe or existence[9],
      • "To love any is to love all, for none can exist without every other. The Universe. The Force. All is one." "
      • "We are One. And Jacen cannot tell if those words come from him to the World Brain, or from the World Brain to him, for Jacen and the World Brain are only different faces of the same thing. Call it the Universe, or the Force, or Existence: those are only words. They are half truths. Less. They are lies. The truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it."
    • or even thought itself,
      • "all interpretations that have been and will be made of the Force are ultimately not the Force. The interpretations are something other than the Force, nothing more than feeble thoughts and ideas. This is how concepts such as the Living Force are born—by sentient beings attempting to grasp the Force."
    • they are all simply words, "half truths", or lies, in which it's "truth" will always be greater than any naming or conceptualization which[10]
      • "We are One. And Jacen cannot tell if those words come from him to the World Brain, or from the World Brain to him, for Jacen and the World Brain are only different faces of the same thing. Call it the Universe, or the Force, or Existence: those are only words. They are half truths. Less. They are lies. The truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it."
    • can, has, or could ever be imposed upon it, none of which would ever reflect it's true nature, which defies explanation entirely.”[11]
      • "The Force is one. The Force is everything and everything is the Force. The Force does not take sides. The Force does not even have sides." "The Force defies explanation."
)

Overall, it's mostly fine. Help clarify the "not sure"s I mentioned.

Also, I think we can condense it better. It seems to repeat itself with the same scans. We don't need to keep linking the same scan but in a different sentence.

Also, I think these two come from The New Jedi Order: Traitor, not Tales of The Jedi Companion - Chapter 1.

oneness beyond and utterly
 
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Maybe something like:

Boundless (The Force is "An infinite mystery," a "beautiful infinite entirety," with "natural," "mystical," and "metaphysical" properties. "Only the Force is real." "Force energy that embodied [one's] essence in both mind and form" is "more real and tangible than the flesh-and-blood." "There is no life, there is only the Force." It is an "ineffable truth that all life was illusion, that the only existence lay beyond their bodily shadows in the divine glow of the Force itself." Even "[time was] an illusion" to the Force." "The Force is one. The Force is everything and everything is the Force." "Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand.” "All is one, and one, therefore, is all." "No duality exists." It has neither "separate components" nor "sides." "The Universe. The Force. All is one." People are "only different faces of the same thing." "The Force is beyond words." "It simply is what it is." It is "both within and without, limitless and sublime and wholly beyond comprehension." "All interpretations that have been and will be made of the Force are ultimately not the Force. The interpretations are something other than the Force, nothing more than feeble thoughts and ideas." "Concepts such as the Living Force" come from "sentient beings attempting to grasp the Force." It is "bigger than the words we use to describe it."

Omnipresent (The Force exists and is omnipresent)
 
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The quotes in use were already previously accepted with the Tier. This is just finalizing the presentation on the page. With this in mind, it should be fine to finalize the end presentation with just me and maybe another staff.
 
Also, I think these two come from The New Jedi Order: Traitor, not Tales of The Jedi Companion - Chapter 1.
Click to expand...
First is from Traitor, second is from TOTJ Companion
"all interpretations that have been and will be made of the Force are ultimately not the Force. The interpretations are something other than the Force, nothing more than feeble thoughts and ideas. This is how concepts such as the Living Force are born—by sentient beings attempting to grasp the Force."
Click to expand...

Fake scan, use this instead.
  • separation
    • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
Click to expand...
In case you don't already know, being non-dual would also qualify as a lack of separation/differentiation, so clarification isn't needed here.
  • which exceeds,
    • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
  • as well as contains all of the supposedly distinct aspects of existence.
    • Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in the scan for this.
Click to expand...
1. "exceding existence" should be implied through the TOTJ Companion scan, inasmuch as describable aspects never reflect the true nature, and are instead reduced to aspects which are lower (through plaugeis' musings in book of sith) than the Force in it's entirety, and the Force not being dependent on anything should also imply this.
2. The True Nature being all-encompassing should satisfy this.


It may be a nonsentient energy field, the sum of all creation. It may be an eternal entity, knowing and unknowable. It may be both of these and more; it may be something else entirely. The only certain truth is that the Force exists and is omnipresent."
Click to expand...

Just a comment on this scan which might pose a issue, they are describing a ineffable aspect yet say it's created through life, so I wonder how you guys will reconcile that. Also if you wish I may provide scans for my earlier disagreement for the rating.

@Firestorm808
 
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Re5yh said:
Also, can we add the profile now?
Click to expand...
no

EDIT: Firestorm hasn't looked at P&A yet, and from what I know P&A is a new proposal (not previously accepted as tier 0) so it would still need more votes.
 
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Grand_Astartes said:
This one from the OP is the most recent as far as I am aware. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Beelzebub100/The_Force#The_Force

There are probably some minor changes that need to be made abilities-wise, but that can be another thread, to be honest. This one has gone on for quite a while now..
Click to expand...
So apparently, this version of the page got changed, and the Control, Sense, and Alter powers and abilities were removed, in favor of the general Tier 0 abilities (which logically contain every ability on the wiki, so not really a big problem) and a few Star Wars-specific abilities. If we're still looking at a version that is a bit more specific and contains the Tier 0 abilities and the Control, Sense, and Alter sections, then Stonekillerz's Force profile still has all of these things.

These are all fairly clear-cut cut so hopefully this can end soon. I would advocate that we use the Attack Potency justification from Beelzebub's Force profile, and use the Stonekillerz's Force profile proposal for the remainder of the profile. Essentially, I think combining these elements from the two blogs would create the most holistic view of the Tier 0 Force.
 
OTG0001 said:
First is from Traitor, second is from TOTJ Companion


Fake scan, use this instead.

In case you don't already know, being non-dual would also qualify as a lack of separation/differentiation, so clarification isn't needed here.

1. "exceding existence" should be implied through the TOTJ Companion scan, inasmuch as describable aspects never reflect the true nature, and are instead reduced to aspects which are lower (through plaugeis' musings in book of sith) than the Force in it's entirety, and the Force not being dependent on anything should also imply this.
2. The True Nature being all-encompassing should satisfy this.




Just a comment on this scan which might pose a issue, they are describing a ineffable aspect yet say it's created through life, so I wonder how you guys will reconcile that. Also if you wish I may provide scans for my earlier disagreement for the rating.

@Firestorm808
Click to expand...
I see.

I will remove the fake scan. It seems to be fanfiction from theforce.net or something similar.

"Vergere nodded. “Jacen, to tap deeply into the Unifying Force, we will have to surrender our desire to control events. We will have to unbridle ourselves of words and of thinking, because thoughts, too, are born of the physical world. We must refrain from analyzing the Force, and simply allow the Force guide us. Our relationship with the Force must be impeccable, without the need to be supported by words or reason. We must carry out the commands of the Force as if they were beyond appeal. And we must do what must be done, no matter who attempts to stand in our way.”

How would we trim this down?

"Over the millennia the Force has been called by an uncountable number of names: the Unity, the Way, the Power, Magic. All hint at one aspect or another of the Force’s all-encompassing presence, but none completely reflect its true nature."

This seems okay.
 
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Phsccarvalho said:
no

EDIT: Firestorm hasn't looked at P&A yet, and from what I know P&A is a new proposal (not previously accepted as tier 0) so it would still need more votes.
Click to expand...
Grand_Astartes said:
So apparently, this version of the page got changed, and the Control, Sense, and Alter powers and abilities were removed, in favor of the general Tier 0 abilities (which logically contain every ability on the wiki, so not really a big problem) and a few Star Wars-specific abilities. If we're still looking at a version that is a bit more specific and contains the Tier 0 abilities and the Control, Sense, and Alter sections, then Stonekillerz's Force profile still has all of these things.

These are all fairly clear-cut cut so hopefully this can end soon. I would advocate that we use the Attack Potency justification from Beelzebub's Force profile, and use the Stonekillerz's Force profile proposal for the remainder of the profile. Essentially, I think combining these elements from the two blogs would create the most holistic view of the Tier 0 Force.
Click to expand...
It seems that the P&A do not have any scans for evaluation.
 
Firestorm808 said:
It seems that the P&A do not have any scans for evaluation.
Click to expand...
That throws a big wrench in. Can any of the P&A be used without scans? All of the abilities listed are on Wookiepedia with many sources, but I know that a majority of these sources would require a pretty big commitment to find, screenshot, and such. Dang it.
 
Grand_Astartes said:
That throws a big wrench in. Can any of the P&A be used without scans? All of the abilities listed are on Wookiepedia with many sources, but I know that a majority of these sources would require a pretty big commitment to find, screenshot, and such. Dang it.
Click to expand...
We could probably copy and paste from the existing legends profiles and modify the wording it a bit.

For brevity, we can just do the barebone obvious stuff and add the more complex force abilities in a later thread.
 
Re5yh said:
The references are in God cat's blog
Click to expand...
That blog has different powers listed than Stonekillerz’ Force profile, so there’s still several abilities in the P&A that are completely unjustified.
 
Firestorm808 said:
"Vergere nodded. “Jacen, to tap deeply into the Unifying Force, we will have to surrender our desire to control events. We will have to unbridle ourselves of words and of thinking, because thoughts, too, are born of the physical world. We must refrain from analyzing the Force, and simply allow the Force guide us. Our relationship with the Force must be impeccable, without the need to be supported by words or reason. We must carry out the commands of the Force as if they were beyond appeal. And we must do what must be done, no matter who attempts to stand in our way.”

How would we trim this down?
Click to expand...
Probably something like:

...fully removed from thought and cognitive faculties,
 
Firestorm808 said:
We could probably copy and paste from the existing legends profiles and modify the wording it a bit.

For brevity, we can just do the barebone obvious stuff and add the more complex force abilities in a later thread.
Click to expand...
I think this approach makes the most sense (albeit most of the legends' profiles kinda suck and are very outdated). In that case, I think Beelzebub's profile gets the gist of the main abilities for now. Once this thread is finally done, I'll find some time later and pull some all-nighters to crank out the references and retrieve the scans. Hopefully, the sources are available online and not some lost media.

Is everyone else fine with this approach?
 
Grand_Astartes said:
I think this approach makes the most sense (albeit most of the legends' profiles kinda suck and are very outdated). In that case, I think Beelzebub's profile gets the gist of the main abilities for now. Once this thread is finally done, I'll find some time later and pull some all-nighters to crank out the references and retrieve the scans. Hopefully, the sources are available online and not some lost media.

Is everyone else fine with this approach?
Click to expand...
Should be fine.
 
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