• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Tier 0 Battles

Messages
1,289
Reaction score
60
Is it allowed to make battles between Tier 0 (Omnipotent) characters, be it in VSBattles or "serious" Joke Battles? And if yes, do they have special specifics different from normal characters? If not, what is the highest Tier usable in VSBattles and "serious" Joke Battles?

Q: What happens if two Tier 0s fight?

A:
Absurd notion.
And while i did read this, it still doesn't answer the more important questions like "Is such fight allowed" or "How to determine who would win".
 
Last edited:
Is it allowed to make battles between Tier 0 (Omnipotent) characters, be it in VSBattles or "serious" Joke Battles?
No, because such a fight isn’t coherent at all. Tier 0s are too transcendental for fights and already encompass all modes of being that would articulate such a fight.

I mean, they are literally defined by immutability. And two Tier 0s can’t exist within the same verse, so obviously they can’t exist cross-verse either.

If not, what is the highest Tier usable in VSBattles and "serious" Joke Battles?
High 1-A+ Type 1.

Also, you’re only allowed to bump after 12 hours of inactivity per post.
 
Is it allowed to make battles between Tier 0 (Omnipotent) characters, be it in VSBattles or "serious" Joke Battles?
No, because such a fight isn’t coherent at all. Tier 0s are too transcendental for fights and already encompass all modes of being that would articulate such a fight.

I mean, they are literally defined by immutability. And two Tier 0s can’t exist within the same verse, so obviously they can’t exist cross-verse either.
Then, can Tier 0's fight in "serious" Joke Battle?

I mean, they are literally defined by immutability. And two Tier 0s can’t exist within the same verse, so obviously they can’t exist cross-verse either.
What if one Tier 0 sits in one Verse, another Tier 0 sits in another verse, and they attack each-other despite sitting in different verses due to their absurd reach?
 
Then, can Tier 0's fight in "serious" Joke Battle?


What if one Tier 0 sits in one Verse, another Tier 0 sits in another verse, and they attack each-other despite sitting in different verses due to their absurd reach?
Them fighting is not a coherent notion to begin with.

And if you “fight a Tier 0”, then that disqualifies it being Tier 0 begin with. I already said that it’s too transcendental for it to fight.
 
Well then, under which cases fights between Tier 0's are allowed? You want to say that even JokeBattles isn't non-serious enough?
 
Well then, under which cases fights between Tier 0's are allowed? You want to say that even JokeBattles isn't non-serious enough?
It doesn't matter how "non-serious" the medium is, the issue lies in the very nature of Tier 0, transcending all multiplicity. If you have "two" Tier 0s fighting each other, then neither of them actually qualify for Tier 0 anymore, since the core requirement of the tier, transcending all multiplicity, is no longer being met. It's impossible to put "two" Tier 0s in a single situation and have them fight, because "twoness" as a property, as well as any numerical amount (even 1 technically), is a category error at this level, like trying to figure out what color the vacuum of space is. The answer, of course, is that it doesn't, and cannot, have a color at all. In the same vein, the very question "What happens if two Tier 0s fight?" ascribes a property to Tier 0 which it cannot, by it's very nature, have.
 
It's impossible to put "two" Tier 0s in a single situation and have them fight, because "twoness" as a property, as well as any numerical amount (even 1 technically), is a category error at this level, like trying to figure out what color the vacuum of space is. The answer, of course, is that it doesn't, and cannot, have a color at all.
Assuming that you're facing a direction without any objects (e.g. planets, stars, etc) and that you're not in soft sci-fi (which can have colored vacuum), vacuum of space is usually black. At least, it seems to be black - it actually has no color, due to not having mass or ability to reflect light at all.

Can "twoness" problem be circumvented in a way, which still makes it possible for Tier 0s to fight without being in same place and getting disqualified? Like, one sitting in one verse and another in other, and they attacking each-other through verses? Or perhaps some other workaround.

There's also some issue with Attack Power and Durability. Question of "can Tier 0, when he doesn't want to be damaged, be damaged/harmed in any way/one-shot by Tier 0?" is essentially Omnipotence Paradox. If Tier 0 can damage a Tier 0, then one getting damaged doesn't met the requirements of being a Tier 0; if Tier 0 can't damage a Tier 0, then one trying to damage doesn't met the requirements of being a Tier 0. As such, even if "two" Tier 0s fight without being "disqualified from Tier 0", then fight boils down into one of 2 scenarios:
  • They can't damage each-other whatsoever - as such, both have no wincons, and fight ends as Inconclusive.
  • They attack each-other at same time, both hits land simultaneously, they both die - fight ends as Inconclusive.
And since fight seemingly can't end in anything but Inconclusive, it's prohibited due to being a variant of Stomp.

Finally, can we write that every Tier 0 has "Weakness: presence of other Tier 0 characters causes them to revert to their High 1-A+ state"?
 
Last edited:
Can "twoness" problem be circumvented in a way, which still makes it possible for Tier 0s to fight without being in same place and getting disqualified? Like, one sitting in one verse and another in other, and they attacking each-other through verses? Or perhaps some other workaround.
Nope. The moment you try to make a situation where they are aware of and can interact with each other, you're essentially putting them in the same verse, existing "alongside" each other, which is incoherent on principle. Sorry buddy, I don't make the rules.

The only sensible workaround would probably be this:
There can, however, be distinction within Tier 0 if these distinctions don't introduce a variety of essences and substances in isolation and self-exclusion from each other. For example, if there are two characters A and B, and both are one and the same being/essence/substance, not being separate from each other even in their distinction. Bear in mind that such things must be stated to be the case, or at minimum have reasonable points of inference.
However this wouldn't be a true battle between Tier 0s as much as it would be a battle between different aspects of the same Tier 0. The Tier 0 would effectively be fighting itself, which, aside from being very bizarre, is also pointless since it would always end in a draw.

It should also be noted that Tier 0 does not "exist" in any "place", by virtue of transcending all differentiation:
By nature, a Tier 0 does not exist in dimensional space, not being circumscribed by any sort of numerical coordinate, nor taking up any sort of volume. Neither, for the matter, is it in a higher "meta-space," inasmuch as this still entails some notion (However disanalogous) of being in a specific location, apart from somewhere else, and thus a constricting particularity which must be transcended. In the truest sense, it is nowhere at all.
So you can't have them "sit" in different verses, since by their nature they don't "sit" anywhere.
There's also some issue with Attack Power and Durability. Question of "can Tier 0, when he doesn't want to be damaged, be damaged by Tier 0?" is essentially Omnipotence Paradox. If Tier 0 can damage a Tier 0, then one getting damaged doesn't met the requirements of being a Tier 0; if Tier 0 can't damage a Tier 0, then one trying to damage doesn't met the requirements of being a Tier 0. As such, even if "two" Tier 0s fight without being "disqualified from Tier 0", then fight boils down into one of 2 scenarios:
  • They can't damage each-other whatsoever - as such, both have no wincons, and fight ends as Inconclusive.
  • They attack each-other at same time, both hits land simultaneously, they both die - fight ends as Inconclusive.
This question essentially boils down to "Can Tier 0 affect itself?" to which the answer is basically no.
It is of interest to note, also, that the same principle applies to the Tier 0 itself: Any effects that it can actualize are infinitely transcended by its nature, precisely in being actualized and therefore contingent. Framing this argument in classical language: Anything that can go from non-actualization to actualization is subject to an underlying potentiality. A Tier 0 is above and beyond all potentiality, and therefore cannot be subject to such processes.
And since fight seemingly can't end in anything but Inconclusive, it's prohibited due to being a variant of Stomp.
No, it's prohibited because such a thing is completely unintelligible by it's very nature:
Bluntly speaking, there cannot be multiple Tier 0 beings. Since it transcends all ontological divisions, it is not coherent to conceive of many Tier 0s separately existing "alongside" each other, so that one doesn't, so to speak, touch the other. This would entail that each of the beings in question is differentiated from the others by something it has, and the others don't, and vice-versa, which contradicts the premise of the tier to begin with. Since it is already not "a" being, much less can there be many beings of that same tier.
Finally, can we write that every Tier 0 has "Weakness: presence of other Tier 0 characters causes them to revert to their High 1-A+ state"?
No. You say that the presence of other Tier 0s is an absurd notion which should not even be thought about.

Tier 0 is not a "thing", or a "character", or an "entity". It is the source and foundation for the individual existence of any of those things to begin with. Just as the Platonic Form of "cat" is not itself a cat, the source of all multiplicity and individuality cannot itself be an individual object that is differentiated from everything else. Thinking of it this way is incorrect and incoherent. You can't have two Tier 0s because you technically can't even have one; because Tier 0 is not an individual, it is a category, the category of "thingness" itself, containing absolutely any and all individual things. "Two" Tier 0s would mean two individual categories of individuality, which is utter nonsense.
 
Last edited:
There's also some issue with Attack Power and Durability. Question of "can Tier 0, when he doesn't want to be damaged, be damaged by Tier 0?" is essentially Omnipotence Paradox. If Tier 0 can damage a Tier 0, then one getting damaged doesn't met the requirements of being a Tier 0; if Tier 0 can't damage a Tier 0, then one trying to damage doesn't met the requirements of being a Tier 0. As such, even if "two" Tier 0s fight without being "disqualified from Tier 0", then fight boils down into one of 2 scenarios:
  • They can't damage each-other whatsoever - as such, both have no wincons, and fight ends as Inconclusive.
  • They attack each-other at same time, both hits land simultaneously, they both die - fight ends as Inconclusive.
This question essentially boils down to "Can Tier 0 affect itself?" to which the answer is basically no.
It is of interest to note, also, that the same principle applies to the Tier 0 itself: Any effects that it can actualize are infinitely transcended by its nature, precisely in being actualized and therefore contingent. Framing this argument in classical language: Anything that can go from non-actualization to actualization is subject to an underlying potentiality. A Tier 0 is above and beyond all potentiality, and therefore cannot be subject to such processes.
So, if Tier 0 can't affect itself, then it couldn't affect "other Tier 0" in a nonsensical fight. If both opponents can't affect each-other, they have no wincons, and therefore fight ends as Inconclusive.

The only sensible workaround would probably be this:
There can, however, be distinction within Tier 0 if these distinctions don't introduce a variety of essences and substances in isolation and self-exclusion from each other. For example, if there are two characters A and B, and both are one and the same being/essence/substance, not being separate from each other even in their distinction. Bear in mind that such things must be stated to be the case, or at minimum have reasonable points of inference.
However this wouldn't be a true battle between Tier 0s as much as it would be a battle between different aspects of the same Tier 0. The Tier 0 would effectively be fighting itself, which, aside from being very bizarre, is also pointless since it would always end in a draw.
This is not a truly "sensible" workaround, since fights between 2 copies of same characters invariably end as Inconclusive.

Bluntly speaking, there cannot be multiple Tier 0 beings. Since it transcends all ontological divisions, it is not coherent to conceive of many Tier 0s separately existing "alongside" each other, so that one doesn't, so to speak, touch the other. This would entail that each of the beings in question is differentiated from the others by something it has, and the others don't, and vice-versa, which contradicts the premise of the tier to begin with. Since it is already not "a" being, much less can there be many beings of that same tier.
Well, this means that all Tier 0s are identical to each-other power-wise; any Tier 0 can do literally everything. As such, pitting Tier 0s against each-other is like pitting a character against himself; it would end as Inconclusive.

And finally, it would end as Inconclusive because it absolutely makes no sense.
 
So, if Tier 0 can't affect itself, then it couldn't affect "other Tier 0" in a nonsensical fight. If both opponents can't affect each-other, they have no wincons, and therefore fight ends as Inconclusive.
Essentially yeah. Although such a fight is obviously completely nonsensical to begin with.
This is not a truly "sensible" workaround, since fights between 2 copies of same characters invariably end as Inconclusive.
Yeah that's why I said it's not a "true" workaround, it's just the only one that actually makes sense.
Well, this means that all Tier 0s are identical to each-other power-wise; any Tier 0 can do literally everything. As such, pitting Tier 0s against each-other is like pitting a character against himself; it would end as Inconclusive.
It's not like pitting Tier 0 against itself, it literally is the exact same thing, as that's the only even moderately coherent way to think of such a scenario.
And finally, it would end as Inconclusive because it absolutely makes no sense.
Really, it wouldn't end as anything at all, since such a fight is not intelligible to even think of in the first place.
 
Back
Top