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Three commanders revision

Yamatoryujin

Yamatoryujin

314
98
This has been something discussed a few times in the discussion threads, its in regards to the idea that the Three commanders from Dies Irae Machina , Eleonore, and Schreiber should be scaled to "Legion Empowerment" Wilhelm . The reason for this is quite simple, Wilhelm did not receive some special type of boost, he simply became an Einherjar. During his fight with Methuselah, Wilhelm goes into further depth about he is able to match the ancient God of Darkness.

https://imgur.com/a/MTe36fP - Here are some screens from Ikabey with a little summary to explain what's happening

Now some people may object to the infinite soul line with reference to Schreiber in Rea's route, but that's not really right. Our dear Anna was going through some internal shit because the Mad Monk mind raped him and undermined his very desire, unleashing his "true" Briah, and leading to his downfall.

https://imgur.com/a/dTl0kf0

Falling under the weight of your own desires isn't an uncommon theme in the Shinza series, the same thing would have occurred in KKK with Soujirou , if it wasn't for Shiori acting as the sheath to the brilliance of his blade.

I also propose that we should add keys indicating the amount of swastikas opened, namely 5 (when they are summoned, but they can show up earlier), 6(most fights take place at this stage), and 8 (irrc, the final fight between them and Ren in Rea's route took place at this stage).

Assuming that they are at a 100% with 8/8 open they would be at the following Strength, unless this has been quantified in the story, which I cannot recall:


1/8

12.5%

2/8

25%

3/8

37.5%

4/8

50%

5/8

62.5%

6/8

75%

7/8

87.5%
- One little thing that I forgot to mention, was that the powergap between the Three Commanders and the L.D.O in DI is ridiculous. IRCC, Eleonore one shot Tubal Cain with a spark from her cigar at 5 swastikas' open in Rea's route, and Cain is one of the strongest regular members.
 
It begins

Aren't Einherjar immortal as long as Reinhard is alive and kicking?
 
Effectively yes, but he has the final say if he wants to resurrect them. Like in Kei's route when Wolfy died he gave him a time out, and when the other two went down Merc got him to not resurrect them.
 
Oh yeah forgot to mention that EFF Ren should scale to this as well, since WoG is that he can beat any of the commanders in a 1v1.
 
Still enough for Type 8 Immortality albeit with some weaknesses.

Agree

Most feats for Commanders are in the 5, 6 swatiskas opened.

8 Swatiskas Commander are basically their full power and have shown little to no feats apart from fighting and stomping EFF Ren.

Some feats for 5~6 Swatiskas:

  • Eleonore vaporizing Tubal Cain casually with a single spark of her cigar with 5 swatiskas
  • Machina one punching Cain with 5 swatiskas
  • Wolfgang stated to be stronger physically than Cain and Wilhelm again, 5 swatiskas.
  • Eleonore basically not having a single scratch on her body despite Cain attacking with his full might 5 swatiskas IIRC
It's clearly shown that they are constantly shown as superior to regular LDO

Sometimes you get to see them fighting on close grounds but there's certainly a reason as to why it happened (Wilhelm keeping up against Wolfgang due to how his Briah works)
 
Assuming this gets accepted and 5-B (likely far higher), is them at full strength, and assuming that at 5 open they're at 62.5% and at 6 they're 75%, would that put them as a tier 6-B/6-A?
 
Actually, we need to calc Eleonore's feat of dispersing an storm just by entering the world. This calc could put them on Tier 6.
 
actually cain is the strongest regular member afaik in physical strength. Wil comes next then biri-biri (not counting ren in this)

I would like to add the feat about ren's frozen lightning with machina reacting was only 5 swastikas open (I forgot the number) so he is very likely faster at full power. And the one punch was when ren have incomplete briah in kei route so there is that. Ppl like wil only can keep up cuz like alrfy said his briah is a pain due to mechanics
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
actually cain is the strongest regular member afaik in physical strength. Wil comes next then biri-biri (not counting ren in this)
I would like to add the feat about ren's frozen lightning with machina reacting was only 5 swastikas open (I forgot the number) so he is very likely faster at full power. And the one punch was when ren have incomplete briah in kei route so there is that. Ppl like wil only can keep up cuz like alrfy said his briah is a pain due to mechanics
Click to expand...
Weren't Bey and Beatrice more or less equal physically though?
 
@Cynical Due to Cain soul (Sakurais + Beatrice) + Zombie body. He's physically the strongest in terms of normal LDO
 
The "victor" was split in half iirc, Machina maintained his form but lost his identity and the other half was overtaken/based on Lotus' soul.
 
I believe he's talking about the souls gained from that Wewelsburg Castle event. The one where he gained his Holy Relic from killing other high quality souls (60,000 to be exact due to them being mostly warriors/soldiers)

Edit: Ninja'd but yes, the soul was divided into two, one for Machina and the other was based on Lotus' and made to create Ren

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Yamatoryujin said:
The "victor" was split in half iirc, Machina maintained his form but lost his identity and the other half was overtaken/based on Lotus' soul.
Click to expand...
That was just one soul, not half and half.
 
What he said was that the "victor" or the soul was split in half.
 
I'm not quite sure what your question is. Machina at the time of Ikabey had the 2nd largest soul count in the L.D.O, second only to Reinhard. However, he was not an Einherjar yet. He and the rest of the L.D.O were a lot weaker back then, during the free for all he couldn't even one punch Wilhelm without his briah. But in Dies Irae we see him casually one-shot Cain, who is stronger than Wilhelm, whilst only 5 swastikas were open.
 
@yama

I do not remember the amount of Swastikas required for commanders to manifest in the mortal real without being projections or holograms as the scan indicates.

So, before 5 or 6 Swastikas, they are Projections/Holograms?
 
They need 5, but they can temporarily manifest themselves with at least 2 Swastikas as Holograms.
 
Yamatoryujin said:
I'm not quite sure what your question is. Machina at the time of Ikabey had the 2nd largest soul count in the L.D.O, second only to Reinhard. However, he was not an Einherjar yet. He and the rest of the L.D.O were a lot weaker back then, during the free for all he couldn't even one punch Wilhelm without his briah. But in Dies Irae we see him casually one-shot Cain, who is stronger than Wilhelm, whilst only 5 swastikas were open.
Click to expand...
How was he not an Einherjar yet? Machina was literally created out of tens of thousands of Einherjar.
 
He wasn't an Einherjar yet, Wilhelm specfically exlaimed that none have recieved this blessing yet, he was getting all giddy about it. Calling the fighters in the Wewelsburg Castle event Einherjar was a stylistic choice of words. Einherjar in the actual non Masada sense are warriors who fell in battle and were taken to Vallhalla, an apt description of what took place. In the Masada sense Einherjar are immortal and are linked with Reinhard himself, their souls cannot be absorbed by others, where in the battle royale, Micheal kept absorbing souls as he went along.
 
I don't think Eleonore's feat is calculable. There's not enough information on the size of the clouds pushed aside, and we can't just assume "all of them" because there's explicitly a "hole in the heavens" (the hole is where the clouds have been evaporated, meaning everything that isn't a hole hasn't be evaporated), and the image of Eleonore still shows some fairly thick clouds behind her.
 
It is explained in Kei's route and further elaborated on in Rea's route with Machina having absorbed high-level souls. 60,000 of them or so.

And they were all Einherjar.
 
Can you give me a scan where it explicitly states they were all Einherjar and tell me where it was? I think I can understand why this might be confusing to people who played the English version (unless you played the original, in which case I apologies). With must chuuni visual novels you get blasted by tons of ÕñûµØÑÞ¬×(foreign loan words), these are almost always accompanied by Ruby text below them in Kanji to sometimes alter the meaning of the phrase at the writer's discretion. For example:

https://imgur.com/a/Ja7jcVw

It's a general writing style for Masada to employ the usage of Ruby text as seen in several pieces of his work. Which is why I'd like you to direct me to that quote. I don't doubt that they were called Einherjar due to the quality of their souls, but they were not Einherjar in the same sense that the Three commanders and Wilhelm were. Whenever the characters/narration refers to Einherjar in the context of the three commanders you always see õ©ìµ¡╗Þï▒Úøä = Immortal Hero being attached.
 
Yes they are candidates to become Einherjar. Just like how he's one during the royal battle.

They had yet to become one though
 
Yes. And due to completing that gauntlet, he had become an Einherjar, Nigredo. Unless he had yet to complete it in Interview and the mention of having half the souls.
 
The first Einherjar was Albedo, then Eleonore then Machina iirc. Its mentioned on Rein vs Merc
 
I can tell you that in Ikabey no one was linked with Reinhard, perhaps that was a retcon by Masada. Though No one was really designated to their alchemical roles until the prologue of Dies Irae - But he would obviously be given the role of Nigredo. The half the souls' thing was just conjecture on my part, since the victor was split in half I assumed he would gain half the souls as well. If that type of thing isn't allowed my bad we can just strike that out. However, I would like to get back on topic with the revision itself and the main topic of scaling them to Wilhelm and renaming the key to "Einherjar" as well.
 
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