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Thoughts on SSG Multiplier ?

Ssj3 Vegito? I was only referring to ssj Vegito from Buu saga. Goku says that ssjgod is a power beyond anything he has ever felt which would include ssj Vegito since he knows how strong Vegito is. But I lowball it so ssjgod=ssj Vegito.
 
@TheMerchant66 Ah. okay

Still a little unclear as to how that would add-up since Goku & Vegeta trained in Base. Never needing to train using SSG.
 
1) No. SS2 Vegeta isn't 1/10th universal. Beerus was lying when he said he was using that much, as confirmed by Whis after the fight.

2) What is there more to explain...? Even Kefla said she felt she could one shot a universe at her full power. I don't really get where Kefla came from tho.

And the rest is downplay, trying to use Dragon Ball Super's horrible scaling to justify seeing them weaker. Also, Goku after being fatigued by UIO was able to handle stronger versions of Kale and Caulifla in just SSG, so it's clear Goku was holding back against Kale initially. He was even able to fight SS2 Caulifla in base.

The scaling is stupid. The only reason why you should be believe they're Universal is because there's feats for it. Wonky scaling doesn't suddenly negate feats. Does everything the Specter did get negated because Batman kicked him once?
 
And it's kinda bad for you to say that you think SSGSS is weaker than initial SSG Goku, who trained and got stronger than that in his base. To say that Kefla is still weaker than intial BoG Goku is... Bad.
 
@Amexim

Thats not at all what i said.

Since goku was tired during that fight, that is what made Kefla seem so strong. So what if she thinks she can destroy a Universe ?

The Saiyan Girl never even knew what SSJ was "a couple of minutes ago " - how is she supposed to know whats its like to even destroy a Universe ? Let alone a Planet ? There's not even the slightest-bit of indication as to what kind of training and/or before their debut


As in ... every Transformation of Goku being " downgraded to Kefla's level " due to him being tired. In other words, Goku was so tired that the output for SSGSS and SSG was so low.

And honestly, feats don't have any true depth in DBS

1) 17 damages Jiren whereas Goku, Vegeta and Hit never could

( and being " off-guard " doesn't cut-it either )
 
@Amexim ,

Due to how Vague DBS as whole, you'd have to examine many different other events that transpired in order to figure out SSG ( that's the closest anyone will ever get

" thats why I'm mentioning Kefla "

It has nothing to do with downlplay ... Kefla is weak. Period

As such, if SSG & SSGSS has trouble with Kefla - then thats further proof of overestimating SSG

... the only reason why Goku had any trouble is because he was tired battling against Jiren - which creates the illusion of Kelfa being strong


EDIT: The only key thing in noting is that Goku isn't as tired when fought against Kid Buu ... but still noticeably tired enough to have trouble with Kefla due to how weak she is
 
So what if there's no reason for it? I mean, I agree it doesn't make sense, but not every scaling fact needs justification. To imply that Caulifla and Kale aren't even planet level-- it's kinda ridiculous.

Statements from Piccolo in the same episode make it clear that she was comparable to Ultra Instinct omen Goku from the fight against Jiren. Who should be far stronger than BoG SSG Goku. Who you claim is legitimately on the level of 70% of Beerus' full power.

That would mean Kaioken Blue, who shouldn't be WEAKER than who he was before-- would be stronger than Beerus. When that's false. Vegeta being 10% of Beerus' is also an exaggeration and lie from him. Vegeta's super Saiyan God Blue would break passed Beerus. Hell, since their base forms are about equal to SSG initially, just super Saiyan destroys Beerus.
 
Amexim said:
To imply that Caulifla and Kale aren't even planet level
Click to expand...
Kefla is above SSJ3 Goku, but below SSJ Vegito - that's what I'm trying to say. Even if she was higher than SSJ Vegito ... then she is definitely lower than SSJ2 Vegito
 
I dont think it has a multiplier, it simply gives him god ki and makes hes body stronger with it. ssgss is 50 times that
 
Amexim said:
Statements from Piccolo in the same episode make it clear that she was comparable to Ultra Instinct omen Goku from the fight against Jiren.
Click to expand...
" Half-Empty, Half-Full ". Piccolo's Statements only confirms what I've been saying. Goku was tired

Simply put:

Frieza did not heal Goku all the way - the only indication is that he healed Goku only a

" little bit "

Screenshot (659)


Meaning that Kefla was fighting against a Weakened Ultra Instinct.
 
even so, there's nothing to refute Kale tanking SSGSS Goku's Kamehameha before he ever fought against Jiren ... when she was later struggling with a tired-out Goku.( after he fought against Jiren

( https://i.imgur.com/m0Vu5Dk.jpg )


Which practically confirms that SSGSS is not x50, whereas SSG is not too far off from SSJ Vegito or possibly SSJ2 Vegito level
 
to be honest, your trying too hard.

The creators probably didn't even remember the times 50, nor do they have a multiplyer in mind. The entire thing was made for fightz , not logical scaling,t rying to put a number on it is illogical
 
Kefla is above SSJ3 Goku, but below SSJ Vegito - that's what I'm trying to say. Even if she was higher than SSJ Vegito ... then she is definitely lower than SSJ2 Vegito

SSJ2 Berserk Kefla was going to 1-shot an UIO Goku thats superior to the UIO Goku against Jiren (first encounter). So...

Edit: "Meaning that Kefla was fighting against a Weakened Ultra Instinct. " Uh no. The very fact that Kefla was going to 1-shot an UIO Goku that's stated to be stronger than before alone debunks this.
 
"Which practically confirms that SSGSS is not x50, whereas SSG is not too far off from SSJ Vegito or possibly SSJ2 Vegito level"

Are you seriously implying that fusion is superior to God form even though its EXPLICITLY STATED that fusion (Vegito) wouldnt stand a chance at all against Beerus while god at least put up some chance? And no, goku black arc Vegito had god ki so that argument doesnt work.
 
You also forget that Goku's super saiyan form was at first equal to SSG at the time, and now Goku's Base is stronger than that-- at the very least, SSG Goku from BoG is weaker than SS2 Caulifla. No. You make no sense, I'm sorry
 
Well Ultra Instinct isn't even a Transformation - " its just fighting without thinking ". Whis hinted to what it is multiple times in DBS.


If a large,handful amount of people here seems to be dead-set into believing Kefla is near Ultra Instinct Level - or even beyond it. Then thats ... " interesting " to say the least.


But with Kefla in mind ( and other events that transpired in DBS ) ... where would you put SSG, then ?
 
really? it OBVIUSLY makes people stronger dude. I ... I won't even bother to rfute that.


She was stated to be able to oneshot (or greatly dammage) him if she landed a hit , so she is on that level
 
UIO is a straight power up. Don't get me started on "it's just a technique".

Kefla was stated to be able to 1-Shot UIO Goku (second coming) many times. At least in terms of AP, Shes superior. Your opinion that Kefla is anything lesser is... very interesting.

Id place SSG's multiplier to be superior than anything prior (Maybe like how its portrayed in its inception?) But weaker than Blue. SSJ2 (a 100x multiplier) berserk (unknown multiplier) seems to be a stronger multiplier in combo though, at least in pure AP
 
Saying that Ultra Instinct is "just a technique" and not a power-up means ignoring every fight he has with it.

@Akreious

Piccolo(?) also stated that her power was comparable to Goku first using UIS.

Yet again saying she's anything less is ignoring a ton of context.
 
How on earth can anyone think Ultra Instinct doesn't increase strength as well? I mean not only is this stated countless times, but we literally see this happen.

It often seems like people just cannot accept how strong icky icky Kefla is so they wanna downplay Goku too.
 
... Admittedly, my approach into figuring-out Ultra Instinct ... i use alot of correlations from other fictions to assist in that. Sooo .... not to confuse anyone here ...

Ultra Instinct just indirectly increases the speed & acceleration of the user by an extrodinary/ unfathomable amount ( which is tied with the senses ) - so much so, it indirectly affects the output via punches & kicks.

( " Speed ", as in Movement Speed & Attacking Speed .)


That's the closest I'll ever get in explaining it without confusing people ~.~

EDIT: If the Senses are " disrupted " , then Ultra Instinct would be useless.
 
Aercau said:
... Admittedly, my approach into figuring-out Ultra Instinct ... i use alot of correlations from other fictions to assist in that. Sooo .... not to confuse anyone here ...
Ultra Instinct just indirectly increases the speed & acceleration of the user by an extrodinary/ unfathomable amount ( which is tied with the senses ) - so much so, it indirectly affects the output via punches & kicks.

( " Speed ", as in Movement Speed & Attacking Speed .)


That's the closest I'll ever get in explaining it without confusing people ~.~
Click to expand...
no, it was directly shown to increase phisical power. And that"s false equivalnce fallacy
 
Goku didn't hold his own against Jiren with really fast reaction speed alone. It was clearly established that Goku had become much stronger than ever before and Ultra Instinct isn't some kind of gimmick Dyspo would have.
 
  • Ultra Instinct Omen manages to shake the entire World of Void, which Goku couldn't do before.
  • Piccolo states "It only grazed him, but Goku's attacks are working! Even though he was no match as Blue before!".
  • Ultra Instinct Goku tanks attacks from SSB level fighters (Toppo and Dyspo) without even blinking.
  • 17 states that Ultra Instinct Goku "overcame that overwhelming difference in power".
  • Piccolo states "he hits Jiren more heavily".
  • U11 Kai states that Ultra Instinct Goku is gaining on Jiren.
  • We directly see Ultra Instinct Goku trade blows with and stun a Jiren who just roflstomped SSB Kaioken.
  • This supressed Jiren was also stated by Supreme Kai to be stronger than any past opponent.
  • Zeno states "Goku suddenly got stronger".
  • When Zeno asks why he got stronger Whis says it's because he attained Ultra Instinct.
  • Tien states that Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb wouldn't have been a great enough power boost to be able to now contend with Jiren.
  • Whis says that Tien is correct about that.
  • Ultra Instinct Goku forced Kefla to go all out in SSJ2, whereas SSJ1 was enough to knock out Blue Kaioken.
  • Ultra Instinct Goku defeated Kefla, who previously stomped SSB Kaioken.
  • Piccolo states that Kefla surpassed Goku's previous level.
  • Kefla literally states that Ultra Instinct Goku powered up, just that he's still not strong enough to beat her.
  • Literally right after this statement Goku then knocks the wind out of Kefla and harms her.
  • Toppo and Dyspo state that UI Goku's attacks became more polished against Kefla and that he's going to grow even stronger.
  • Frieza tells UI Goku to keep getting stronger.
  • Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku's first appearance curbstomps a Jiren who was using much more power than at any point prior.
  • Jiren states that Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku powered up.
  • Mastered Ultra Instinct overpowers Jiren, making Jiren break his limits.
  • Mastered Ultra Instinct ends up beating broken limit Jiren.
  • Mastered Ultra Instinct was officially stated to be "the strongest Son Goku in history".
  • Jiren, who Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku beat again, was officially stated to be "the mightiest foe in DB history".
CONCLUSION: Ultra Instinct also increases strength and power. Suggesting otherwise is pure denial. And for someone to deny cause they hate Kefla is sad. Kefla's a shit character, but she's a super strong shit character. Just facts.
 
What I find more bullshit is Vegeta and Goku's regular SSB forms being Low 2-C by the end or the series. What's even more bullshit is Frieza and Android 17 being at least 3-A just for fighting a weakened Jiren when there's no indication that they got stronger over time.
 
The Everlasting said:
If it didn't increase his power Goku would be a joke compared to Jiren.
Click to expand...
Thats what I'm saying - It did increase his power , but in order to do that, the Senses had to be sharpened, afterwards his Speed & Acceleration - *then* power increased


When i said " output " , I'm referring to power


 ''But if i explained it further .. it'll actually bring some-sort of clarity to a couples of things that transpired in DBS ... but i guess it doesn't matter since nothings official, yeah ? :s

The overall-basis of what i said is but a " paraphrased-versio " of the whole thing ... and its really best i don't persist in explaining the whole thing.

Even i don't like explaining it :'(

EDIT: Btw i was explaining the 1st Ultra Instinct - not True Ultra Instinct

( not White-haired Goku )
 
With all due respect, "Ultra Instinct only increases strength through increased acceleration" is just a speculative theory.

However we undoubtedly know, no matter what explanation one wants to use for it, that Ultra Instinct for a fact increased Goku's strength and power. Which was my point.
 
@Ryukama

Just so you know, anyone can easily go back and re-watch the T.O.P Arc. Everything that transpired can be used to support another's POV on the matter


( very similar to an Open-Ended Question - the very same information you listed can be used to support another POV that could very well contradict your ow )

But I'm not going to do that.

Instead, I will just say that the ... " paraphrased-excerpt " i typed-out was solely in regards to the 1st Ultra Instinct.

( some like to call it ... " Ultra Instinct Ome " )

It was not referring to True Ultra Instinct ( some like to call it ... " Mastered " Ultra Instinct )


In order to explain True Ultra Instinct, i would be in DIRE need to fully explain the 1st Ultra Instinct before getting to that ( which i won't here )


I refuse to use those terms ( i.e. " Omen " & " Mastered " )because, imo ... its better to grasp the understanding & "nature" of it - that's the gist.


Even if i were to explain it - it would not contradict none of the points you've made. Rather, it'll just broaden the perception of *those aforementioned-points* . Because its a very technical technique.
 
Your formatting is awful. Please try to fix it.

Also, Ultra Instinct -Sign- is an official name referring to Goku's use of Ultra Instinct when he just has the aura. It's just called "Utra Instinct" when he has white hair.
 
Natse said:
What's even more bullshit is Frieza and Android 17 being at least 3-A just for fighting a weakened Jiren when there's no indication that they got stronger over time.
Click to expand...
^

I don't entirely agree with the system thats used on this Website. But it's fair in most cases. But its really the DBS anime to blame and not this Website. DBS anime is really inconsistent in more ways than one ... so that's understandable :s
 
Aercau said:
@Ryukama
Just so you know, anyone can easily go back and re-watch the T.O.P Arc. Everything that transpired can be used to support another's POV on the matter

( very similar to an Open-Ended Question - the very same information you listed can be used to support another POV that could very well contradict your ow )
Click to expand...
No they couldn't. It is explicitly stated and outright shown that Ultra Instinct is stronger than Goku's previous forms countless times.

Please show how any of my bulleted points support otherwise? All of my points were explicit statements and showings of Ultra Instinct being stronger than previous forms. So how could someone use these points to support the opposite?

How does someone stating Ultra Instinct is stronger than past forms support that it isn't stronger? How does Ultra Instinct directly showing to be stronger than past forms support that it isn't stronger?

Ultra Instinct (both the black haired version and the white haired one) is objectively stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken. I always respect how others think but there is so much blatant evidence that this is the case. Please provide any other examples if you want to suggest I'm wrong, and demonstrate how my points could be used against me like you claimed they could.
 
@Ryukama, I am unsure what you're insinuating

I am not saying that Ultra Instinct is weaker is than SSG nor SSGSS. I'm saying its really more technical than just " being stronger " - and the Anime doesn't make that apparent


( but then again by this point its hard to take DBS seriously though, am i right ? xD )

In any case, this thread is supposed to be about SSG. It'll be ... stupendously difficult to try to make a correlation between SSG & Ultra instinct "Sig" ... particularly because they are both vague in figuring-out. My purpose in mentioning Kefla is too say that it gives a vague-indication as to where SSG is at - baring in mind that Goku was still fatigue/ tired from battling Jiren the 1st time

( Using Ultra Instinct "Sign" )

I then stated that Goku was more tired-out when he fought against Kid Buu in Original DBZ - when goku tried to charge-up his SSJ3's Ki after battling with Kid Buu ... he reverted back to his Base Form. My purpose in mentioning this is that it gives a (vague) indication of how tired Goku was when he fought against Kid Buu

Goku tired in DBZ vs Goku Tired in DBS - this is the premise I was trying to make

Next

... directly vs INdirectly ... are completely different
 
Ultimately, however, the whole purpose in that is to make it aware that there are other ways to approach & analyze SSG.

Some like to start using Vegito, some like to start-off using Beerus' 10% Statement to Vegeta, or maybe Toriyama statement of " 6,10,15 " in regards to SSG Goku, Beerus and Whis

But now since DBS has ended, you could " try " to start-off using Kefla ( then " branching-out " to Vegito ) ... or maybe even other events that transpired in DBS


EDIT: Such as the Goku Black Arc


Duly note: Goku could've still been referring to Fusion Dance as opposed to Potara Fusion ... pariticually because Goku didn't have any Potara Earrings. But that's (probably) not worth getting into
 
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