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The Xeelee vs the time lords (1 vote left)

I thought Xeelee's 11D material was no true 11D (I do not know the verse, I am only guided by the profile)
 
I found it

HIGHER SPACE TIME DIMENSIONS

Given the sci fi nature of the sequence, it is no wonder that the subject of higher spatial dimensions and their possible usages comes up in it. From the series we do get to know that all together there are eleven space time dimensions present in the main universe of the sequence. Out of them only four, three spatial and one temporal, are expanded. The rest is compactified, with most of them being on the Planck scale ( 1.612*10-35 m. ) and taking shapes of Calabi-Yau manifolds. To clarify here, these are the shapes that such compactified dimensions do take at Planck scale in M-theory, which is stated to be a part of Xeeleeverse physics at a few instances. A single of this additional dimensions is an exception, with its size being on the scale of a millimetre:

[Our Universe is an eleven-dimensional object. All but four of those dimensions are compactified - rolled up to an unimaginable thinness. – Vacuum Diagrams]

[‘Perhaps you understand that the universe has more dimensions than the macroscopic, the three spatial and one of time. Most of the extra dimensions are extremely small.’ A technical sidebar translated this for Hex as ‘Planck scale’

‘But one extra dimension is rather larger, perhaps as much as a millimetre.‘]


In this framework the main universe can be again thought of as a brane, with these additional spatial dimensions separating it from both distant parts of itself, folded down in those higher dimensions, as well as from completely different universes in the Bulk.

By controlling the shapes of the compactified dimensions in the given universe, one is capable of changing the local laws of physics, allowing to perform such actions like hyperdrive jumps:

["Remember, though, the extra dimensions are here, still, but they're rolled up very tightly, into high-curvature tubes a Planck length across."

"So we can't see them."

"No. But - and here's the trick we think the Xeelee have exploited. Spinner the extra dimensions do have an impact on our Universe. The curvature of these Planck tubes determines the value of the fundamental constants of physics. So the way the tubes are folded up determines things like the charge of an electron, or the strength of gravity."

Spinner nodded slowly. "All right. But what has this to do with the hyperdrive?"

"Spinner-of-Rope, we think the Xeelee found a way to adjust some of those universal numbers. By changing the constants of physics - in a small region of space around itself - the hyperdrive can make spacetime unfurl, just a little."

Louise lifted her face. "Then the nightfighter can move, a short distance, through one of the higher dimensions.

"Think of a sheet of paper. Spinner. If you're confined to two dimensions – to crawling over the paper - then it will take you a long time to get from one side to the other. But if you could move through the third dimension - through the paper - then you could move with huge apparent speed from one place to another..." - Ring]
 
Note:

"The Universe in the Xeelee Sequence is claimed to be eleven-dimensional, that being ten spatial + one temporal dimension. However the temporal dimension is an illusion created by the uncountably infinite number of matter configurations in Configuration Space and the extra seven spatial dimensions past our main three are compactified, that meaning they are bundled to be in a Planck scale and thus may not apply to any tiering metric."-The xeelee's profile


again I do not know the verse but it seems that the higher dimensions do not qualify for 11D
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
again I do not know the verse but it seems that the higher dimensions do not qualify for 11D
Click to expand...

It rather shows that dimensional tiering doesn't work in some fictional universes. But it is just my opinion.

It seems to me dimensional tiering doesn't "properly" work in DW as well, because The Time Vortex is just a 5th dimension:

[ʻIʼm not sure about the technicalities. In laymanʼs terms the TARDIS removes itself from Minkowski space, then integrates itself into a fifth dimension. It travels through something called the Vortex, a transdimensional spiral built by the Doctorʼs people which encompasses all points in space and time. Then, the TARDIS just reorientates itself at the other end, and reestablishes a plasmic real-world interface.ʼ - Just War]

and these 5 dimensions "were triumphant":

[‘When the universe was created, dimensions started to solidify out of the primal chaos. But five got there first – the three spatial dimensions and two of time.’ The Doctor couldn’t bite his tongue any longer. They might be a trinity of professors, but the Doctor had learnt this in elementary class at the Academy! Holding his hands up in protest, he remembered one of his primers: Rassilon’s Guide to the Multiverse, volume 3. The one without the pictures. ‘At the risk of sounding like a high-and-mighty Time Lord, I am a high-and-mighty Time Lord. And to quote one of my elementary texts in the matter: “And in the aftermath of Event Zero, eleven dimensions did fight for existence. Five were triumphant – together they did become the three dimensions of space, and the two dimensions of time through which we travel. But the remaining six dimensions did still exist: although beaten, although denied their dominance, they curled and curdled amongst themselves to become a six-fold universe, separate yet conjoined. - quantum archangel]

Also, higher dimensional beings (Chronovores) cannot so easily enter lower dimensions:

[‘The time vortex is the second temporal dimension – it’s the region through which TARDISes travel, the region that TOMTIT creates a gap through to enable matter transmission. When the dimensions froze out of the void it became inexorably linked to Calabi-Yau Space. The Chronovores may live in the time vortex... but they eat and feed in what you call Calabi-Yau Space. You’re trespassing on their feeding grounds!’ - quantum archangel
By the Ancient Covenants forged in Event One, the Big Bang, the four dimensions of space-time were forbidden to the Chronovores; they were unable to leave their twin domains of Calabi-Yau Space and the time vortex unless summoned- quantum archangel]

[By the Ancient Covenants forged in Event One, the Big Bang, the four dimensions of space-time were forbidden to the Chronovores; they were unable to leave their twin domains of Calabi-Yau Space and the time vortex unless summoned- quantum archangel]

The most interesting thing is that their 11-D transduction barrier cannot protect them from the destruction of the 5th dimension (The Time Vortex):

[MASTER: But this is fantastic, isn't it? The Time Lords restored.
DOCTOR: You weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres. The War turned into hell. And that's what you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending.
MASTER: My kind of world.
DOCTOR: Just listen! Because even the Time Lords can't survive that.
RASSILON: We will initiate the Final Sanction. The end of time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart.
MASTER: That's suicide.
RASSILON: We will ascend to become creatures of consciousness alone. Free of these bodies, free of time, and cause and effect, while creation itself ceases to be.
DOCTOR: You see now? That's what they were planning in the final days of the War. I had to stop them.]

So I think the Xeelee have a chance to beat the Time Lords, with or without the Transduction Barrier if we use high-end interpretation of the Anti-Xeelee.
The Anti-Xeelee is my candidate
 
Last edited:
Not a stomp, definitely. It would be a long and hard war for both sides.

As I said before:

"No, it would be a draw where the Time Lords don't have enough AOE to destroy the Xeelee because of their scale, but the Xeelee don't have enough biggatonrs to pass thru the Transduction Barrier.
But the Xeelee can win only if we use the high-end interpretation of the Anti-Xeelee."
 
Jockey-1337 said:
Not a stomp, definitely. It would be a long and hard war for both sides.

As I said before:

"No, it would be a draw where the Time Lords don't have enough AOE to destroy the Xeelee because of their scale, but the Xeelee don't have enough biggatonrs to pass thru the Transduction Barrier.
But the Xeelee can win only if we use the high-end interpretation of the Anti-Xeelee."
Click to expand...

is high end interpretation allowed or no?

cause if not that would mean matches would not be added and that would make me very sad.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
It rather shows that dimensional tiering doesn't work in some fictional universes. But it is just my opinion.

It seems to me dimensional tiering doesn't "properly" work in DW as well, because The Time Vortex is just a 5th dimension:

[ʻIʼm not sure about the technicalities. In laymanʼs terms the TARDIS removes itself from Minkowski space, then integrates itself into a fifth dimension. It travels through something called the Vortex, a transdimensional spiral built by the Doctorʼs people which encompasses all points in space and time. Then, the TARDIS just reorientates itself at the other end, and reestablishes a plasmic real-world interface.ʼ - Just War]

and these 5 dimensions "were triumphant":

[‘When the universe was created, dimensions started to solidify out of the primal chaos. But five got there first – the three spatial dimensions and two of time.’ The Doctor couldn’t bite his tongue any longer. They might be a trinity of professors, but the Doctor had learnt this in elementary class at the Academy! Holding his hands up in protest, he remembered one of his primers: Rassilon’s Guide to the Multiverse, volume 3. The one without the pictures. ‘At the risk of sounding like a high-and-mighty Time Lord, I am a high-and-mighty Time Lord. And to quote one of my elementary texts in the matter: “And in the aftermath of Event Zero, eleven dimensions did fight for existence. Five were triumphant – together they did become the three dimensions of space, and the two dimensions of time through which we travel. But the remaining six dimensions did still exist: although beaten, although denied their dominance, they curled and curdled amongst themselves to become a six-fold universe, separate yet conjoined. - quantum archangel]
Click to expand...
That is the process in how existence was organized, it does not necessarily determine how cosmology works, if we go to that within DC, the Overvoid's attempts to study existence were contaminated as well as its creations by the multiverse.
Jockey-1337 said:
Also, higher dimensional beings (Chronovores) cannot so easily enter lower dimensions:

[‘The time vortex is the second temporal dimension – it’s the region through which TARDISes travel, the region that TOMTIT creates a gap through to enable matter transmission. When the dimensions froze out of the void it became inexorably linked to Calabi-Yau Space. The Chronovores may live in the time vortex... but they eat and feed in what you call Calabi-Yau Space. You’re trespassing on their feeding grounds!’ - quantum archangel
By the Ancient Covenants forged in Event One, the Big Bang, the four dimensions of space-time were forbidden to the Chronovores; they were unable to leave their twin domains of Calabi-Yau Space and the time vortex unless summoned- quantum archangel]

[By the Ancient Covenants forged in Event One, the Big Bang, the four dimensions of space-time were forbidden to the Chronovores; they were unable to leave their twin domains of Calabi-Yau Space and the time vortex unless summoned- quantum archangel]
Click to expand...
This is due to the Ancient Covenants that prohibits them from entering the lower realm, that is why specific rituals and methods are used to enter, not due to inconsistency of cosmology.
Jockey-1337 said:
The most interesting thing is that their 11-D transduction barrier cannot protect them from destruction of the 5th dimension (The Time Vortex):

[MASTER: But this is fantastic, isn't it? The Time Lords restored.
DOCTOR: You weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres. The War turned into hell. And that's what you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending.
MASTER: My kind of world.
DOCTOR: Just listen! Because even the Time Lords can't survive that.
RASSILON: We will initiate the Final Sanction. The end of time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart.
MASTER: That's suicide.
RASSILON: We will ascend to become creatures of consciousness alone. Free of these bodies, free of time, and cause and effect, while creation itself ceases to be.
DOCTOR: You see now? That's what they were planning in the final days of the War. I had to stop them.]

So I think the Xeelee have a chance to beat the Time Lords, with or without the Transduction Barrier.
Click to expand...
The destruction of gallifrey did not matter to the time lords, they in the process of the Ultimate sanction would ascend out of physical plane to become beings of pure consciousness, that was Rassilon's plan after speaking to the council during the time block

Why would the Barrier defend them from something that they themselves are willing to do? It is as if I wanted to commit suicide but I wear an armor that I can take off but I don't
 
Reading through the responses I agree with jockey here
 
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