The silliest Naruto LS upgrade

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Wait are you sure? The links all work for me.
This is the anime clip.
Here's the manga in a new link.

Does the Ohnoki scan I sent here work for you?

The anime clip is blocked, but the manga link works for me.

 

[Qawsedf234]

When did saying "this is bullshit" become a crime.

It's not. It may make a situation worse and depending on the context it could be considered an aggravating factor to an actual rule break, but unless directed at a user saying that an idea, calc, or suggestion is stupid (even with crass language) is not a rule violation.

For the thread this is a striking feat being treated as a LS feat, which I also disagree with. I don't believe this should be used.

 

[DavidTPPM]

For the thread this is a striking feat being treated as a LS feat, which I also disagree with. I don't believe this should be used.

I'm sorry but are we looking at the same feat?
Sasuke literally grabs and lifts an object in front of his face. He literally performs this exact lifting movement:

Like reading the responses to this thread has been really funny. It's so clear that people just don't like the feat (which is understandable, again I don't like it either) but can't actually find a logical way to disregard it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm sorry but are we looking at the same feat?

I'm looking at the one where Sasuke swings his sword to counter Mifune's sword swing. Which isn't a lifting strength feat but a striking strength one that just needs to supply an equal amount of force to stop Mifune's blade.

This just isn't usable to me.

It's so clear that people just don't like the feat (which is understandable, again I don't like it either) but can't actually find a logical way to disregard it.

Sasuke swung a sword to block a sword swing. That's just not a LS feat. Even the act of just blocking the sword isn't LS but durability. I just outright don't see this as a valid feat.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm looking at the one where Sasuke swings his sword to counter Mifune's sword swing. Which isn't a lifting strength feat but a striking strength one that just needs to supply an equal amount of force to stop Mifune's blade.

This just isn't usable to me.


Sasuke swung a sword to block a sword swing. That's just not a LS feat. Even the act of just blocking the sword isn't LS but durability. I just outright don't see this as a valid feat.

He's (trying to) say[ing] that him swinging the sword in itself is a LS feat because of the speed he swung it at

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's (trying to) say[ing] that him swinging the sword in itself is a LS feat because of the speed he swung it at

If they are, then I also disagree. We don't (or at least shouldn't) treat non-sustained movements as lifting strength showings.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Don't you need at least Above Average Human weight to pass? Hell even Average Human weight would be fine by me, but this shit below average human.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm looking at the one where Sasuke swings his sword to counter Mifune's sword swing. Which isn't a lifting strength feat but a striking strength one that just needs to supply an equal amount of force to stop Mifune's blade.

Yeah swinging a sword upwards is still lifting the sword lmao.
Are you telling me this isn't a person lifting a dumbbell?

Because man this whole time I thought I was "lifting weights" when working out.

Turns out I was striking weights instead.

This just isn't usable to me.

I mean sure but is there an actual on-wiki accepted reason?
Honestly all I want is a reason that isn't either making up non-existent policies (like Daleseans made up "you must prove air feels like a solid to him" rule), ignoring supportive evidence (like Damage ignoring kid Naruto performing close enough feats of LS), or lying (pretending like bicep curling something is "striking")

Sasuke swung a sword to block a sword swing. That's just not a LS feat. Even the act of just blocking the sword isn't LS but durability. I just outright don't see this as a valid feat.

I'm not focusing on the blocking but on the act of lifting that sword. This just a misleading explanation of the proposal because you're making it sound like I'm trying to scale LS off of Mifunes strike being blocked when that isn't the case at all. Mifune only acts as a timer here, nothing else.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He's (trying to) say[ing] that him swinging the sword in itself is a LS feat because of the speed he swung it at

I'm not trying or saying. It objectively is.
Both mathematically speed (or rather acceleration) and mass are equally important to LS.
And biomechanically this is literally one of the most common lifting movements for working out. (although with a horrible technique)

You can say whatever you want about whether wiki policies or outliers make it unusable, but this is FACTUALLY a class P lifting strength feat.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Yeah swinging a sword upwards is still lifting the sword lmao.
Are you telling me this isn't a person lifting a dumbbell?

Because man this whole time I thought I was "lifting weights" when working out.

I'm not talking about the motion. I'm talking about the weight. 1 kg is literally Below Average Human according to our LS Standards. If it was at least Average Human Weight (50 kg+), then I think you would have had an argument.

Turns out I was striking weights instead.

Not even making that argument lmao

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah swinging a sword upwards is still lifting the sword lmao.

Not on-site:

Furthermore, fiction commonly features characters capable of striking with vastly greater energy than needed to lift weights they struggle with. As such, to accommodate for fictional portrayals, our indexes don't assume that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it if said character didn't explicitly display such lifting feats. Thus, Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are generally not comparable and should be evaluated separately.

As such, pushing and pulling feats are also considered part of this statistic as long as they have proper calculations to account for the difference from lifting. The weight of something pulled across a horizontal surface often needs to account for the appropriate friction coefficient after finding the mass of the object. Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be separated from physical strength when used in a lifting feat. Tearing also falls within this category, but it is unreliable for calculating overall lifting ability most of the time, as the force used in a tearing motion is much lower than a lift, as a tearing motion uses much fewer muscle groups and is an awkward application of force compared to other movements. Likewise, throwing an object a certain height upwards can be used as a lifting feat, as doing so would require greater strength than merely lifting the object.

Swinging a sword very fast to block another sword isn't lifting strength. It's striking strength and wouldn't scale to LS without proper cause. Which isn't given here.

Are you telling me this isn't a person lifting a dumbbell?

A false equivalency. That is a real person subject to real physics. Not a magic ninja man who allegedly swung a sword at 99% lightpseed without generating a nuclear fireball from the friction such a feat would entail.

I mean sure but is there an actual on-wiki accepted reason?

It's a rapid non-sustained action. LS at its core function is a sustained force or action. Swinging a blade fast does not fit that criteria in most circumstances.

Honestly all I want is a reason that isn't either making up non-existent policies (like Daleseans made up "you must prove air feels like a solid to him" rule)

You have five moderators, three of which are calc members, telling you that it does not fit our criteria. It just doesn't fit our criteria. The feat is inherently going to be listed as a striking feat because Sasuke is swinging a sword really fast rather than putting sustained effort into it.

This is in fact a notable problem on the wiki for misuse of LS calcs and there's a staff/calc thread currently covering it.

This just a misleading explanation of the proposal because you're making it sound like I'm trying to scale LS off of Mifunes strike being blocked when that isn't the case at all

You're trying to take Sasuke's speed from swinging his sword and then scaling it to the sustained force he can lift. That is fundamental just not a lifting strength feat on the site for the reasons I posted earlier.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not on-site:

That says we separate striking and lifting strengths.

This isn't a striking feat.

Swinging a sword very fast to block another sword isn't lifting strength. It's striking strength and wouldn't scale to LS without proper cause. Which isn't given here.

You keep trying to force the word "swinging" there to avoid the fact he's literally lifting the sword.
Yes he's swinging a sword BY LIFTING IT in front of his face.

A false equivalency. That is a real person subject to real physics. Not a magic ninja man who allegedly swung a sword at 99% lightpseed without generating a nuclear fireball from the friction such a feat would entail.

Excuse me?
Are you suggesting that any fictional feat cannot use the real world for reference?

Because then we gotta nuke the ENTIRE wiki. Every calculation is now incorrect because it uses IRL laws of physics and formulas to measure it. Hell the tiering system references IRL objects and measurements so we gotta nuke that as well.

It's a rapid non-sustained action. LS at its core function is a sustained force or action. Swinging a blade fast does not fit that criteria in most circumstances

No it's not. This constantly gets brought up in LS threads and constantly gets rejected. The very quote from our LS page you yourself pasted in this very comment mentions throwing feats as viable for LS.

Likewise, throwing an object a certain height upwards can be used as a lifting feat

Throwing is not a "sustained motion" any more than this is. Literally the only mechanical difference between throwing an object and what Sasuke did is that Sasuke didn't release his fist at the end of his movement.

Again even the very pages you're quoting agree with me.

You have five moderators, three of which are calc members, telling you that it does not fit our criteria.

Setto mentioned a KE rule which mentioned that if a verse correlates speed and strength then we actually can use feats like this, and after I proved Naruto does correlate them he didn't reply again.

Damage called it an outlier which doesn't even mean he's saying it's against our policies (hell he made a staff thread to decide whether it should be). He also ignored me when I brought up 2 other feats close enough to this one to not make it an outlier. Either way, doesn't matter.

Dalesean literally just made up his own rules that are nowhere on the wiki when I showed that the ones actually on the KE page support the calc.

KT just called it bullshit.

That's 2 mods with an unclear stance about the actual validity within current standards, 1 literally just making up his own non-existent standards, and 1 that didn't even bother coming up with an excuse and just called it BS.

So I'm sorry if I don't take "this is bullshit" and "lifting weights isn't a lifting strength feat" as good responses lmao.

It just doesn't fit our criteria. The feat is inherently going to be listed as a striking feat because Sasuke is swinging a sword really fast rather than putting sustained effort into it.

This is in fact a notable problem on the wiki for misuse of LS calcs and there's a staff/calc thread currently covering it.

Vsbw: the only place where being too strong gets you downgraded

You're trying to take Sasuke's speed from swinging his sword and then scaling it to the sustained force he can lift. That is fundamental just not a lifting strength feat on the site for the reasons I posted earlier.

I'm not trying, I'm doing exactly that.
I'm taking the mass of what Sasuke is lifting and multiplying it by the acceleration during that lift to find out the force at which he can lift stuff.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT FORCE IS

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

arguing it's not an LS feat is the goofiest straw grasp I've seen, you can reject the calc for the same reason as Damage and co without needing to do mental jumping jacks to attempt further invalidation of his proposal

if he's lifted / moved mass it IS a Lifting Strength feat, doesn't necessarily have to be a class P one tho

It's not. It may make a situation worse and depending on the context it could be considered an aggravating factor to an actual rule break, but unless directed at a user saying that an idea, calc, or suggestion is stupid (even with crass language) is not a rule violation.

this affirmation was unneeded, I didn't call his actions rule breaking, attacking an overly exaggerated version of what I said and outright ignoring what he's actually done is not it dude, I will remind you I didn't demand he be penalized I requested him not to bring that energy here, that was the end of it. why? because those things lead to this level of drama

 

[Qawsedf234]

This isn't a striking feat.

What he does in that scene would not constitute as a lifting strength feat on the wiki. Which is why I said it's a striking feat.

You keep trying to force the word "swinging" there to avoid the fact he's literally lifting the sword.
Yes he's swinging a sword BY LIFTING IT in front of his face.

I'm not forcing the word inti the feat, the feat is him rapidly drawing and moving his sword to intercept Mifune's slash, which isn't a LS feat per our standards.

Are you suggesting that any fictional feat cannot use the real world for reference?

I'm saying you're using your evidence wrong for the wiki. A real person is subject to real rules, which is why a dumbell curl is both a striking and lifting feat. Sasuke is subject to the wiki view on fictional physics, which separates the two as different statistics. It's why someone running at 99% lightspeed doesn't grant them Class P lifting strength by default and in a lot of cases doesn't even grant them AP because they break KE principals.

Because then we gotta nuke the ENTIRE wiki. Every calculation is now incorrect because it uses IRL laws of physics and formulas to measure it. Hell the tiering system references IRL objects and measurements so we gotta nuke that as well.

I think you're just misunderstanding the problem with the calc. It's just not a LS feat on the wiki.

Throwing is not a "sustained motion" any more than this is. Literally the only mechanical difference between throwing an object and what Sasuke did is that Sasuke didn't release his fist at the end of his movement.

Again even the very pages you're quoting agree with me.

If Sasuke threw his sword at 99% lightspeed which intercepted Mifune it would be classied as LS and I wouldn't have commented on it. But he doesn't, so it doesn't count as LS either.

So I'm sorry if I don't take "this is bullshit" and "lifting weights isn't a lifting strength feat" as good responses lmao.

You can feel that way, but it's their responses and they're saying that you're wrong in your interpretation of the feat.

I'm not trying, I'm doing exactly that.
I'm taking the mass of what Sasuke is lifting and multiplying it by the acceleration during that lift to find out the force at which he can lift stuff.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT FORCE IS

And this particular feat is not something where that force can be scaled to lifting strength.

If you want to include the feat, make a staff thread where swinging an object quickly as counts as LS. At the moment I just don't see it as a valid justification.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Which is why I said it's a striking feat.

If this is a striking feat can you please pinpoint who exactly is Sasuke striking?

Is there some microscopic mosquito above his head that Sasuke was trying to hit and we just don't see it?

Because I'd love to agree with you but I really don't see Sasuke striking anything or anyone.

I'm not forcing the word inti the feat, the feat is him rapidly drawing and moving his sword to intercept Mifune's slash, which isn't a LS feat per our standards.

Which standards state lifting objects in a nearly identical fashion to weight lifting exercises is not lifting strength?

I'm saying you're using your evidence wrong for the wiki. A real person is subject to real rules, which is why a dumbell curl is both a striking and lifting feat.

A dumbbell curl isn't a striking feat whatsoever. Even irl the muscle groups you're using for most punches and for a bicep curl are not the same and those that are the same are not put under the same amount of tension.

And again what part of the wiki states a dumbell curl is not a lifting strength feat? Are you giving an official staff statement that if a character were to bicep curl a 500 kg dumbell we still wouldn't consider that a lifting strength feat?

I think you're just misunderstanding the problem with the calc. It's just not a LS feat on the wiki.

No I'm not misunderstanding the problem. My problem is that you're claiming it's not a LS feat "on the wiki" but you can't cite any standards that actually support this.

And from a logical standpoint, the claim that weight lifting exercises aren't considered lifting is just absurd so that doesn't help explain your stance either.

If Sasuke threw his sword at 99% lightspeed which intercepted Mifune it would be classied as LS and I wouldn't have commented on it. But he doesn't, so it doesn't count as LS either.

Huh? What's the difference?
So if Sasuke performed the exact same movement at the exact same speed in the exact same fashion for the exact same purpose BUT he released his grip at the end of it, that'd be a LS feat?

Why does Sasuke not releasing his grip somehow un-LS this? Correct me if I'm wrong but the actual "lifting" part of a throwing feat is BEFORE the object is released from your hand, not after. So how does Sasuke not releasing his sword make this not lifting strength?

You can feel that way, but it's their responses and they're saying that you're wrong in your interpretation of the feat.

I agree, I never said otherwise.

If you want to include the feat, make a staff thread where swinging an object quickly as counts as LS. At the moment I just don't see it as a valid justification.

See? You did it again. You desperately tried to avoid describing the feat accurately because you know saying "make a staff thread where lifting an object quickly counts as LS" would sound absolutely ridiculous. It's also not entirely accurate. The definition of "swinging" is:

the action of moving back and forth or from side to side while suspended or on an axis

This does not fit what Sasuke is doing. However the definitions of "lifting":

1. raise to a higher position or level.
2. pick up and move to a different position.

Absolutely 100% fit the action.


I don’t even necessarily want to include the feat, I couldn't care less about a +1 tier LS upgrade for the most ignored statistic on the profile. I just want an explanation for why it's not acceptable that isn't just lying for the sake of ignoring something we don't like.

 

[Dalesean027]

Is there any reason for this to still be ongoing when its literally against our current policies and has disagreements of 3 CGMs, 2 thread mods, and 2 admins?

Myself, Seiji, Damage, KT, and Qaw

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I think it's fine to wrap up now.

 

[KingTempest]

TLDR: Swinging weapons isn't lifting strength nor is it a lifting strength feat unless it's heavy enough

 

[Dalesean027]

Closing

 

[Armorchompy]

Is there any reason for this to still be ongoing when its literally against our current policies and has disagreements of 3 CGMs, 2 thread mods, and 2 admins?

Myself, Seiji, Damage, KT, and Qaw

And me : D