The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[ObberGobb]

I'm late to the party on this one, but I think True Adamantium bodies should definitely scale to peak Worthy Thor. They're consistently beyond Thor's capacity to harm at all, and it takes Thor explicitly going all-out to harm Secondary Adamantium Ultrons.

Do you know which are true and which are secondary? In my readings so far (I'm at 1985 in my Avengers read-through), they haven't made a distinction.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Do you know which are true and which are secondary? In my readings so far (I'm at 1985 in my Avengers read-through), they haven't made a distinction.

They hadn't made a distinction until Ultron Unlimited in 1999. From what I understand, if it was broken or damaged before that point they retconned it into being secondary adamantium

 

[MrKerf]

I don't mind waiting until she responds.

Impress should be busy irl for some time, as I recall.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm late to the party on this one, but I think True Adamantium bodies should definitely scale to peak Worthy Thor. They're consistently beyond Thor's capacity to harm at all, and it takes Thor explicitly going all-out to harm Secondary Adamantium Ultrons.

Thor can and has very much damaged considerably harder metal than true Adamantium with his strikes, such as Captain America's shield and the Destroyer armour, and he defeated his uncle Cul, who completely shattered Captain America's shield.

Kurt Busiek, despite being an excellent writer, had an extremely lowballed view of Thor's full power, explicitly placing him far below the Silver Surfer, Binary, or the severely depowered Post-Crisis Superman, and as such depicted him having to go all-out to damage even secondary adamantium during his prominent Ultron Unlimited storyline, but this was a typical Marvel Comics inconsistency.

 

[Antvasima]

They hadn't made a distinction until Ultron Unlimited in 1999. From what I understand, if it was broken or damaged before that point they retconned it into being secondary adamantium

The retcon doesn't logically work, no matter how much Tom Brevoort wants it to. Both Hulk and Thor have explicitly repeatedly damaged true adamantium, or performed even greater feats, as far as I am aware.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Thor can and has very much damaged considerably harder metal than true Adamantium with his strikes, such as Captain America's shield and the Destroyer armour, and he defeated his uncle Cul, who completely shattered Captain America's shield.

Kurt Busiek, despite being an excellent writer, had an extremely lowballed view of Thor's full power, explicitly placing him far below the Silver Surfer, Binary, or the severely depowered Post-Crisis Superman, and as such depicted him having to go all-out to damage even secondary adamantium during his prominent Ultron storyline, but this was a typical Marvel Comics inconsistency.

That’s not really an inconsistency though, ultron’s more durable than just plain adamantium, just like how iron man’s armor is more durable than plain iron(I know it’s not actually iron but the point is the same)

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Thor can and has very much damaged considerably harder metal than true Adamantium with his strikes, such as Captain America's shield and the Destroyer armour, and he defeated his uncle Cul, who completely shattered Captain America's shield.

Kurt Busiek, despite being an excellent writer, had an extremely lowballed view of Thor's full power, explicitly placing him far below the Silver Surfer, Binary, or the severely depowered Post-Crisis Superman, and as such depicted him having to go all-out to damage even secondary adamantium during his prominent Ultron Unlimited storyline, but this was a typical Marvel Comics inconsistency.

Base Thor has never damaged protoadamantium, and typically can't touch the Destroyer armor. The instances of him denting Cap's shield were when he had the Allpower. Additionally, the Thor that fought and tied with Cul was given special armor by Odin in addition to the Odinsword itself.

 

[Antvasima]

He used the Destroyer armor as a punching bag and severely dented it, and wasn't physically powered up when he fought Cul as far as I recall. Also, Hulk and Thor have damaged true adamantium several times as far as I am aware from their Marvel Comics wiki pages. Kurt Busiek and Tom Brevoort cannot just offhandedly lie and state that it never happened no matter how much they want to lessen Thor's stature.

 

[Antvasima]

That’s not really an inconsistency though, ultron’s more durable than just plain adamantium, just like how iron man’s armor is more durable than plain iron(I know it’s not actually iron but the point is the same)

No. Ultron's "skin" is made of regular adamantium.

 

[Rgerdeena]

No. Ultron's "skin" is made of regular adamantium.

Sigh, there’s literally real life methods to make metals more durable, the most well known is slowly heating then rapidly cooling them, a supergenius like ultron can do much more effective stuff to increase the durability of the metal than real life people can

 

[MrKerf]

So, can someone briefly explain what Utgard is? I don’t follow Gods, especially Elder.

 

[Rgerdeena]

So, can someone briefly explain what Utgard is? I don’t follow Gods, especially Elder.

It’s basically those who sit above in shadow’s equivalent of what Asgard is to asgardians

 

[Antvasima]

Sigh, there’s literally real life methods to make metals more durable, the most well known is slowly heating then rapidly cooling them, a supeegenius like ultron can do much more effective stuff to increase the durability of the metal than real life people can

That is pure speculation, and adamantium is already considered to be optimised within a Marvel Comics context.

 

[Antvasima]

It’s basically those who sit above in shadow’s equivalent of what Asgard is to asgardians

It is possible that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow will be revealed to be manifestations of Utgard-Loki, but we do not know that yet as far as I am aware.

 

[Rgerdeena]

It is possible that Those Who Sit Above In Shadow will be revealed to be manifestations of Utgard-Loki, but we do not know that yet.

Why is that relevant to what I said?, not trying to sound rude or anything but I genuinely have no idea what that has to do with what I said

 

[Antvasima]

Doesn't really explain the reasoning for High 3-A, especially when "a machine that could collapse infinite timelines into one" sounds like a Multiverse level+ feat.

Yes. I think that feat should be moved to a later, higher, tier for Thor.

So should we fix this quickly?

Anyway, about this...

 

[Antvasima]

Why is that relevant to what I said?, not trying to sound rude or anything but I genuinely have no idea what that has to do with what I said

MrKerf asked about the current Utgard storyline with the elder gods, as far as I understood.

 

[MrKerf]

It’s basically those who sit above in shadow’s equivalent of what Asgard is to asgardians

Uh-huh. I see. And how is it connected to the Elder Gods? Like… Are Utgard guys the Rlder Gods, or were they before, or created?

 

[Entity]

So, can someone briefly explain what Utgard is? I don’t follow Gods, especially Elder.

Utgard is the realm created by Utgard-Loki beyond the Far Shore, the Utgard Gods are a group of Elder Gods who survived Atum's massacre

 

[Rgerdeena]

Uh-huh. I see. And how is it connected to the Elder Gods? Like… Are Utgard guys the Rlder Gods, or were they before, or created?

There’s also 5 elder gods that live there, two of which are utgard Thor/toranos and utgard Loki

 

[MrKerf]

Utgard is the realm created by Utgard-Loki beyond the Far Shore, the Utgard Gods are a group of Elder Gods who survived Atum's massacre

I am asking specifically because of that feat, yes. Ever since Impress asked me to look at the Thor thread. Basically, what’s the mechanism of Utgard-Loki reaching the Outside?

 

[Entity]

I am asking specifically because of that feat, yes. Ever since Impress asked me to look at the Thor thread. Basically, what’s the mechanism of Utgard-Loki reaching the Outside?

He says he will create a realm for himself and other Elder Gods and that's it, he creates the realm and walks away, leaving the keys to Gaea

 

[MrKerf]

He says he will create a realm for himself and other Elder Gods and that's it, he creates the realm and walks away, leaving the keys to Gaea

-_-

 

[Entity]

-_-

That's what I remember, I wanted to check the chapter but the site is not working

 

[Entity]

-_-

Just checked, that's it. He begins to build the gate and says he'll form his domain, his own out-land. As he has built the gate, he gives the key to open it to Gaea, then nothing else.

 

[Antvasima]

That's what I remember, I wanted to check the chapter but the site is not working

rco station dot xyz, bat cave dot biz, and get comics dot org still seem to be working, but the others I know of are down.

 

[MrKerf]

Just checked, that's it. He begins to build the gate and says he'll form his domain, his own out-land. As he has built the gate, he gives the key to open it to Gaea, then nothing else.

Brother, no wonder people say Marvel is wanked, we give out high ratings for things like these?

How do we treat such things again? The qualitative difference between Eternity and Outside should be unreachable to... pretty much everyone except from the help from similar source.

 

[Entity]

Brother, no wonder people say Marvel is wanked, we give out high ratings for things like these?

How do we treat such things again? The qualitative difference between Eternity and Outside should be unreachable to... pretty much everyone except from the help from similar source.

Everyone who is at least at the same level of Eternity can journey through the Outside or you can use the magic of God of Stories Loki to protect yourself from being erased

 

[MrKerf]

Everyone who is at least at the same level of Eternity can journey through the Outside or you can use the magic of God of Stories Loki to protect yourself from being erased

Eternity states twice that he has no influence Outside his own being and can't aid anyone there, when did he journey there?

 

[Entity]

Eternity states twice that he has no influence Outside his own being and can't aid anyone there, when did he journey there?

Everything outside Eternity is the Outside, he having no power there means that he does not control it, unlike with all of his internal structures. Also, the Never Queen was the 4th Cosmos originally, just like Eternity is the 7th and 8th, and she did her journey in the Mystery

 

[Entity]

Everything outside Eternity is the Outside, he having no power there means that he does not control it, unlike with all of his internal structures. Also, the Never Queen was the 4th Cosmos originally, just like Eternity is the 7th and 8th, and she did her journey in the Mystery

Also, Eternity lives in the Outside, but has no power on it, if Utgard-Loki created a realm in the Outside, it would mean that he is stronger than Eternity

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

If it's stated to be magic then I guess it'd be "limited Magic", only applicable to those daggers

I don't like the whole limited thing and in her lore the source of her powers is the lightforce, so if her daggers are magic then everything from the lightforce is magic which would include Mr Negative as well

 

[MrKerf]

Also, Eternity lives in the Outside, but has no power on it, if Utgard-Loki created a realm in the Outside, it would mean that he is stronger than Eternity

Which would make him an Elder God superior to the Demiurge-Primordial, who created Elder Gods, which logically shouldn’t be the case.

 

[Entity]

Which would make him an Elder God superior to the Demiurge-Primordial, who created Elder Gods, which logically shouldn’t be the case.

It is possible to create beings stronger than yourself as we see with Celestials and Beyonders, but this may not be the case, I don't know that much about the Demiurge, but it could also be that the Demiurge is on the same level/superior to Eternity

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress

Was your change accepted anywhere?

It's a self-evident change, she was scaled U.S. Agent and Scythia (Hippolyta), both of which we had rejected on the Scarlet Witch CRT, so she didn't have a tier otherwise.

Yeah it's a tiering change, but if something is accepted in a CRT iirc you can make changes based on that (My DC pages for instance, get changed to fit a certain accepted tier without any notification)

 

[Eseseso]

It's a self-evident change, she was scaled U.S. Agent and Scythia (Hippolyta), both of which we had rejected on the Scarlet Witch CRT, so she didn't have a tier otherwise.

Quick question. I'm going to split SW's pre-94 self from her post-94 self, and while her post 94 self has good scaling (bone-shattering punches, US Agent, Black Cat, etc.), all I have found for pre-94 SW so far is her yeeting a very large and buff guy. Is that enough for 10-A for "Classic" SW?

 

[Eseseso]

It's a self-evident change, she was scaled U.S. Agent and Scythia (Hippolyta), both of which we had rejected on the Scarlet Witch CRT, so she didn't have a tier otherwise.

Yeah it's a tiering change, but if something is accepted in a CRT iirc you can make changes based on that (My DC pages for instance, get changed to fit a certain accepted tier without any notification)

Also, the US Agent CRT more or less closed since an equal amount of staff were for and against it.

And my only issue with 9-C is that the feats for modern SW don't support her being hundreds of times weaker than US Agent and people on his level.

 

[The_Impress]

Also, the US Agent CRT more or less closed since an equal amount of staff were for and against it.

A scan evaluation is not a subjective votecount-based thread. I don't know what you are referring by "the US Agent CRT", but for the Scarlet Witch CRT I evaluated, there wasn't anything there that was ambiguous and thus required a vote count. You aren't "for or against" a CRT, you evaluate a CRT.

There can be 30 staff members that can support a scan, but at the end of the day if it's doctored it will get removed.

Quick question. I'm going to split SW's pre-94 self from her post-94 self, and while her post 94 self has good scaling (bone-shattering punches, US Agent, Black Cat, etc.)

Try to have a tangible consistency there.

all I have found for pre-94 SW so far is her yeeting a very large and buff guy. Is that enough for 10-A for "Classic" SW?

Show the scan rq? It's likely 10-A but coud be 9-C or 10-B

Also I will be honest, this is for the broader supporterbase, but we actually should stop chucking Peak Humans into 9-A off scaling alone. Like there are characters with actual, canonical super strength there that are just as, if not more skilled than 9-B+s. Like I'm not even being a logical puritan, Kingpin can get there by just being chonky and Shang-Chi in the modern era basically has his Kung Fu just make him that strong, but like, give SOMETHING to explain why far more skilled characters like Captain America and Wolverine needed the Super Soldier Serum to hit their tier, and even more skilled characters like Daredevil and Taskmaster didn't get in anyways. There can be a sort of leeway for this scaling in the 60s and 70s (I genuinely think writers forgot Captain America had super strength in the 60s and 70s), but 80s and onwards, no.

If not then can they at least stop pretending that the Cap tier is massively above Daredevil tier to the point they need a separate 8-C scaling chain or something.

Like it's either you care about cross-title scaling AND broader verse logic, or you care about neither cross-title scaling nor broader verse logic, you can't discard verse logic when applying a tier to a character.

And if we are going the whole "cross-scaling doesn't exist" route, then scaling shouldn't be brought up at all.

 

[Eseseso]

Try to have a tangible consistency there.

I'll try but it ain't easy.

Show the scan rq? It's likely 10-A but coud be 9-C or 10-B

Sure.

You weren't lying about Classic SW being a physical weakling, it's so hard finding good physical feats for her.

 

[The_Impress]

Why is chonk-y censored