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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

I think that Erik Masterson had a considerably higher raw power level than the vast majority of heralds, possibly being equal to the original Thor when the latter is calm, but lacked severely in the skill department. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Erik Masterson had a considerably higher raw power level than the vast majority of heralds, possibly being equal to the original Thor when the latter is calm, but lacked severely in the skill department. 🙏
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Well, at one point, Eric Masterson did fight a furious Thor who thought he killed Sif so was trying to kill him. I vaguely remember someone like Odin or something saying that Eric was only below Thor in experience. But on the other end, Loki told Eric that he only had a tenth of the original Thor's power.
 
One tenth fits with Thor being ten times stronger when in warrior's madness mode though, but since that had not been introduced yet at the time of Loki's statement, I suppose that Erik would simply be equal to normal Thor, not doesn't hold back Thor. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
One tenth fits with Thor being ten times stronger when in warrior's madness mode though, but since that had not been introduced yet at the time of Loki's statement, I suppose that Erik would simply be equal to normal Thor, not doesn't hold back Thor. 🙏
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I don't think that's what was implied though. Like Thor has never actually used the real Warrior's Madness to my knowledge, and Loki was saying it to explain why he was beating Eric Masterson so easily. I suppose you could say that Loki was lying to taunt him though.
 
Maybe Erik Masterson was just 1/10th as skilled in using Thor's powers? 🙏
 
ObberGobb said:
Ok I'm thinking this in regards to Heralds:

Option 1: Everyone who scales to Thor scales to Yggdrasil. Heralds end up at probably High 1-B. This would be everyone currently 3-C or Low 1-C being upgraded to High 1-B.

Option 2: Same as above but we treat Yggdrasil as 2-A, and everyone becomes 2-A.

Option 3: High Heralds scale to Thor's Yggdrasil feat and will be High 1-B (Peak Thor, peak Hercules, peak Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, Kurse, Mangog, 2nd key Silver Surfer, maybe Ultron). Normal Heralds (Everyone currently Low 1-C or 3-C) scale to 2-A based on Eric Masterson's feat and hopefully some supplemental feats.

Option 4: Same as above, but if there are no other feats around 2-A, we might have to drop it. In this case, something in Tier 3 or even as low as Tier 4.


My thoughts on the scaling are that nobody should scale to feats done by characters like Thor, Hulk, Hercules, etc., but they should be able to scale to their normal states. So if we have statements of a character being on Thor's level, that would be treated as them scaling to Herald Tier. Characters who are explicitly and consistently more powerful than someone like Thor should either scale to his soon-to-be High 1-B Yggdrasil feats, or get a "possibly." I think Ultron falls into this category as to my knowledge, Thor has never so much as scratched him. Characters like Sentry and Thanos should be a flat High 1-B as not only are they shown to be more powerful than Thor, they also have feats against Skyfather Tier characters.

My thoughts on Thor's scaling have changed. For one, only one of his Yggdrasil feats is him in a "Beyond peak" state, the Worldengine feat. If even literal baby Thor scales to Yggdrasil, I don't think we have a reason to think he only scales to Yggdrasil at his peak. I also think he operates at "normal" Herald level 99% of the time. In Blood and Thunder, when he was shown to be vastly more powerful than Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, and Adam Warlock even before getting the Power Gem amp, Sif thought his strength was amped 10x by Warrior's Madness. It wasn't, this is just how strong bloodlusted Thor is. This is important because it shows peak Thor is vastly above Herald Tier, but also that even Sif, a fellow god, had never seen him this strong before, so she judges Thor's strength to be comparable to those three.

I don't want to do a CRT yet, but I want to hear your thoughts on my thoughts so far.
Click to expand...
I lean toward option 3
 
ObberGobb said:
Ok I'm thinking this in regards to Heralds:

Option 1: Everyone who scales to Thor scales to Yggdrasil. Heralds end up at probably High 1-B. This would be everyone currently 3-C or Low 1-C being upgraded to High 1-B.

Option 2: Same as above but we treat Yggdrasil as 2-A, and everyone becomes 2-A.

Option 3: High Heralds scale to Thor's Yggdrasil feat and will be High 1-B (Peak Thor, peak Hercules, peak Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, Kurse, Mangog, 2nd key Silver Surfer, maybe Ultron). Normal Heralds (Everyone currently Low 1-C or 3-C) scale to 2-A based on Eric Masterson's feat and hopefully some supplemental feats.

Option 4: Same as above, but if there are no other feats around 2-A, we might have to drop it. In this case, something in Tier 3 or even as low as Tier 4.
Click to expand...
ObberGobb said:
My thought is that if Eric Masterson's feat is the only 2-A we should unfortunately drop it. There are a good number of Galaxy level feats I think, and maybe some Universal ones, but Ill have to look into it more.
Click to expand...
Option 4 is the better choice. There are many scans of High 1-B Yggdrasil. The Yggdrasil holds Asgard and other God/Demonic realms which are consistently said to be above mortal plane. Scaling 3-C to Low 1-C heralds to High 1-B is still a no.


This can support Tier 2 heralds: Hiro-Kala creates a field of Old Power powerful enough to cover the distance between two universes, blocking the Enigma Force from being used.

 
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ObberGobb said:
Ok I'm thinking this in regards to Heralds:

Option 1: Everyone who scales to Thor scales to Yggdrasil. Heralds end up at probably High 1-B. This would be everyone currently 3-C or Low 1-C being upgraded to High 1-B.

Option 2: Same as above but we treat Yggdrasil as 2-A, and everyone becomes 2-A.

Option 3: High Heralds scale to Thor's Yggdrasil feat and will be High 1-B (Peak Thor, peak Hercules, peak Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, Kurse, Mangog, 2nd key Silver Surfer, maybe Ultron). Normal Heralds (Everyone currently Low 1-C or 3-C) scale to 2-A based on Eric Masterson's feat and hopefully some supplemental feats.

Option 4: Same as above, but if there are no other feats around 2-A, we might have to drop it. In this case, something in Tier 3 or even as low as Tier 4.


My thoughts on the scaling are that nobody should scale to feats done by characters like Thor, Hulk, Hercules, etc., but they should be able to scale to their normal states. So if we have statements of a character being on Thor's level, that would be treated as them scaling to Herald Tier. Characters who are explicitly and consistently more powerful than someone like Thor should either scale to his soon-to-be High 1-B Yggdrasil feats, or get a "possibly." I think Ultron falls into this category as to my knowledge, Thor has never so much as scratched him. Characters like Sentry and Thanos should be a flat High 1-B as not only are they shown to be more powerful than Thor, they also have feats against Skyfather Tier characters.

My thoughts on Thor's scaling have changed. For one, only one of his Yggdrasil feats is him in a "Beyond peak" state, the Worldengine feat. If even literal baby Thor scales to Yggdrasil, I don't think we have a reason to think he only scales to Yggdrasil at his peak. I also think he operates at "normal" Herald level 99% of the time. In Blood and Thunder, when he was shown to be vastly more powerful than Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, and Adam Warlock even before getting the Power Gem amp, Sif thought his strength was amped 10x by Warrior's Madness. It wasn't, this is just how strong bloodlusted Thor is. This is important because it shows peak Thor is vastly above Herald Tier, but also that even Sif, a fellow god, had never seen him this strong before, so she judges Thor's strength to be comparable to those three.

I don't want to do a CRT yet, but I want to hear your thoughts on my thoughts so far.
Click to expand...
1. The Masterson feat was described as erupting mystical energy simultaneously affecting all planes of reality, loosening a force not seen since the Big Bang. The “mystical energy erupting across all planes” superficially qualifies as a H1-B statement, and it being above anything done in the universe since the Big Bang would also qualify for this, not to mention the Big Bang which created 616 is not just 2-A.

2. The infinite branching of timelines explained here fits more with a L1-C universe (each juncture leads to another, ^infinity) than a 2-A one.
 
So did anybody else read the latest issue of Imperial? From my perspective, since Jonathan Hickman himself seems to think like an amoral ends justify the means to further personal selfish interests and power-mongering, no matter how many innocent lives that are casually sacrificed in the process villain, that is the worldview where his sympathies lie, and he keeps turning heroes into villains and propagating to his readers that this is the inevitable and proper way of managing the world as a whole (much like Bill Willingham), and has now turned the Black Panther, Shuri, Black Bolt, and possibly Starlord into villain protagonists, with Shuri even stating that Black Panther has the "decency" to not keep his hands clean of innocent blood, and that he is the greatest man she has ever known in conjunction... Nice.

Marvel Comics keeps turning into an increasingly amoral, malevolent, power-mad, bloodthirsty, diseased, morbid, and absolutely dystopian and unlikeable villain protagonists-driven mess. 🙏🙁
 
Antvasima said:
So did anybody else read the latest issue of Imperial? From my perspective, since Jonathan Hickman himself seems to think like an amoral ends justify the means to further personal selfish interests and power-mongering, no matter how many innocent lives that are casually sacrificed in the process villain, that is the worldview where his sympathies lie, and he keeps turning heroes into villains and propagating to his readers that this is the inevitable and proper way of managing the world as a whole (much like Bill Willingham), and has now turned the Black Panther, Shuri, Black Bolt, and possibly Starlord into villain protagonists, with Shuri even stating that Black Panther has the "decency" to not keep his hands clean of innocent blood, and that he is the greatest man she has ever known in conjunction... Nice.

Marvel Comics keeps turning into an increasingly amoral, malevolent, power-mad, bloodthirsty, diseased, morbid, and absolutely dystopian and unlikeable villain protagonists-driven mess. 🙏🙁
Click to expand...
I read it.
I don't know why that's a problem, old comics were full of way to good people with clear white and black heroes and villains, now it's more complex the "gray area" I think it's good to not have such simplistic ways, have villains with "sad backstories" and heroes becoming villain-ish. Althought I'm not really liking much how often villains become good then bad again and good and bad it gets too annoying.

Overall seems that Kree Skrull will go back to the old ways of war, and the union won't last long considering how much they don't trust each other so I guess that too won't take long to go back to the old wars, I guess status quo attacking again.
 
Well, I want protagonists to actually be likeable good people, especially if they are set up as role models, not morally blur everything together until everyone is thoroughly awful and the audience is also systematically encouraged to embrace morally awful attitudes and ideals.

I wrote a story about these thematics many years ago, and refined it in my spare time much more recently. 🙏

vsbattles.com

My story: "Vile Fables For Progressive Children"

Hello. I have republished my old story online, which I originally wrote between September 2006 and May 2008, after around 7 months of hundreds of gradual refinements and errors corrections, writing a final epilogue chapter, and rewriting the author endnotes, since I thought that its almost...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I want protagonists to actually be likeable good people, especially if they are set up as role models, not morally blur everything together until everyone is thoroughly awful and the audience is also systematically encouraged to embrace morally awful attitudes and ideals.

I wrote a story about these thematics many years ago, and refined it in my spare time much more recently. 🙏

vsbattles.com

My story: "Vile Fables For Progressive Children"

Hello. I have republished my old story online, which I originally wrote between September 2006 and May 2008, after around 7 months of hundreds of gradual refinements and errors corrections, writing a final epilogue chapter, and rewriting the author endnotes, since I thought that its almost...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
Well, I separe reality from fiction so I don't really think of the characters as role models in anyway, I just accept and enjoy the story, their motivations ect. I expect people who read to have clear understanding of morality and ethics and more importatly to understand that reality and fiction are completely different. I like the gray areas because of bad actions can be made from good intentions.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I expect people who read to have clear understanding of morality and ethics and more importatly to understand that reality and fiction are completely different.
Click to expand...
That would be nice if it was true, but unfortunately it is not according to both reliable research and my own extensive experiences. Almost everybody are greatly ideologically and ethically affected by their sum total input, including but not limited to all the fiction they digest, even if they are usually not attentive and observant enough to notice it.

Also, much of the entire point of characters labelled as heroes is to present them as ideals and role models to follow. There are no valid moral excuses for using them as either propaganda for the military-industrial complex or/and for absolutely ruthless and amoral, conscience- and compassion-deprived "realpolitik", as Hickman and other writers gleefully tends to do in my experience. That is just plain evil and extremely socially destructive behaviour. Period. 🙏
 
All I can say is, glory to the unified Skrull Empire and death to every single Kree (Researching Super-Skrull has not let Skrullian propaganda affect me whatsoever)
 
Antvasima said:
That would be nice if it was true, but unfortunately it is not according to both reliable research and my own extensive experiences. Almost everybody are greatly ideologically and ethically affected by their sum total input, including but not limited to all the fiction they digest, even if they are usually not attentive and observant enough to notice it.

Also, much of the entire point of characters labelled as heroes is to present them as ideals and role models to follow. There are no valid moral excuses for using them as either propaganda for the military-industrial complex or/and for absolutely ruthless and amoral, conscience- and compassion-deprived "realpolitik", as Hickman and other writers gleefully tends to do in my experience. That is just plain evil and extremely socially destructive behaviour. Period. 🙏
Click to expand...
I rather believe that we are reading the story of heroes struggling as humans with the "power of a god", they are still humans they make mistakes and they have different opinions which might be morally ambiguous. I think it's one of the reasons why marvel became so popular that their heroes are flawed instead of the perfect role model like Superman is supposed to be, as I said I like the "flawed heroes" more than the "boy scout" which is way I read mostly marvel.
Homestly I thought other marvel fans had similar thoughts.
 
I heard you guys were about to downgrade high heralds to 2-A. I believe 2-C would make more sense since most of the heralds has shown multi-universal feats rather than 2-A and yggdrasil feats high 1-B would make sense. thor and hulk who are strongest heralds can get this type of scaling 2-C up to high 1-B
 
Dreamer23421 said:
I heard you guys were about to downgrade high heralds to 2-A. I believe 2-C would make more sense since most of the heralds has shown multi-universal feats rather than 2-A and yggdrasil feats high 1-B would make sense. thor and hulk who are strongest heralds can get this type of scaling 2-C up to high 1-B
Click to expand...
High Heralds would be High 1-B via Thor and Hercules' Yggdrasil feats. I think that characters like Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, and Ultron should scale to that. Basically any character who is shown to be explicitly more powerful than Thor, or else have similar feats on that level. Like Sentry and Ultron are both shown to be far more powerful than Thor is, even implied to be above his peak. We are looking at "normal" Heralds, basically everyone who is currently 3-C or Low 1-C. We have a few Tier 2 feats for them, but unless we find more, we are thinking that they might have to be just 3-C or even like 4-B. Could you send some of those Multi-Universal feats you mentioned?
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
So.... Next sorceror supreme officially revealed.
www.marvel.com

The Marvel Universe's New Sorcerer Supreme, Revealed at Last

Scarlet Witch is the new Sorcerer Supreme! See Wanda Maximoff take magic in the Marvel Universe to new heights in 'Sorcerer Supreme,' an ongoing series launching in December.
www.marvel.com www.marvel.com
Click to expand...
Honestly, I don't hate that. I was worried they would pick someone like Storm, who is cool but has no business being Sorcerer Supreme. Wanda actually fits. Her new costume is cool too. I think the idea that the Vishanti don't like the new Sorcerer Supreme is interesting. I still love my boy Doctor Strange, but until he gets the title back just in time for his next film appearance, this will be an interesting story. Is she still the Avatar of the Darkhold? Because that already puts her easily at Sorcerer Supreme level, so also being Sorcerer Supreme on top of that is kinda crazy.
 
ObberGobb said:
Honestly, I don't hate that. I was worried they would pick someone like Storm, who is cool but has no business being Sorcerer Supreme. Wanda actually fits. Her new costume is cool too. I think the idea that the Vishanti don't like the new Sorcerer Supreme is interesting. I still love my boy Doctor Strange, but until he gets the title back just in time for his next film appearance, this will be an interesting story. Is she still the Avatar of the Darkhold? Because that already puts her easily at Sorcerer Supreme level, so also being Sorcerer Supreme on top of that is kinda crazy.
Click to expand...
I do like her "red door" spell it's very "Sorceror Supreme-ish" since people in need end up there for her to help, so I think it's fine althout I still think that scarlet witch being sorceror supreme still feels like giving a 9mm gun to Punisher.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
Btw it seems she will have an advisor counsil which will include chthon clea and wiccan
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Glad to see Clea is a part of it. I don't really know much about Scarlet Witch comics, but I thought he was a huge villain? Like Wanda's equivalent of Dormammu. Also I wish they used this opportunity to bring in some other sorcerers, like Dr. Voodoo.
 
ObberGobb said:
Glad to see Clea is a part of it. I don't really know much about Scarlet Witch comics, but I thought he was a huge villain? Like Wanda's equivalent of Dormammu.
Click to expand...
I like Clea but she works very well alongside Strange, let's see how it will work with Wanda. I have no idea how it will work for Chthon, I think it's more likely that he doesn't like Agatha and that's why he will side with Wanda there was an whole thing of Agatha stealing his heart or something like that, but i'm not keeping up with Wanda all that much.
 
I think that Scarlet Witch was the best available choice, and Bleeding Cool reported that Marvel accidentally gave this fact away over a month ago, although it won't really affect Wanda's already insanely high power level much, just likely give her more versatility.

I am obviously not at all a fan of allowing Chthon to have a say though. That smells too much of the Krakoa era X-Men's thoroughly amoral storytelling approach. 🙏
 
MrKerf said:
Let's be real: we are never reaching those levels again XD
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Let's hope not. Whatever Hickman touches seems to turn into a real world-style ideologically amoral, compassion- and conscience-deprived far right politician or oligarch. He is the opposite of King Midas in that regard. Everything he touches turns into rotten excrement.
MrKerf said:
I was rooting for Val so bad T_T
Well, not Storm at least.
Click to expand...
Let's see if Doom succeeds in resurrecting Valeria first. He just accidentally killed her in the most recent "One World Under Doom" issue.

The current Storm comicbook basically reads like a thoroughly gleefully spiteful power-mad trollfic directed against anybody who has the audacity to be Thor fan, yes. 🙏
 
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Or maybe he sacrifices all of his Sorcerer Supreme power to override the fixed event? 🙏
 
Well, he also depowered many of the X-Men, so that also needs to be undone for practical storytelling reasons. 🙏
 
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