The Hunter (Carnivores) vs Spike (Jurassic: The Hunted)

[Flashlight237]

Okay, so this should be within the Hunter's normal boundaries. First of all, The Hunter should be very well-versed in hunting dinosaurs. Spike is a dinosaur. That's well and dandy.

Spike can take on RPG-7 shots, which are worth 0.0227769677 tons of TNT. The Hunter can kill Coelophysus, which can do 8.53 kg of TNT, and even T. Rexes in the game he's from. Apparently one-shotting is a 7.9x multiplier now, so the Hunter's AP is 0.0673910009 tons.

Let's see what we can do with this... Hmm... Well, both combatants know what to do in tropical environments. The Hunter navigated the tropical and subtropical environments in the extrasolar planet the games took place in hunting for prehistoric creatures as trophies. Spike... Well, Spike is little more than a straight-up animal despite his size, but the thing is one of the key factors in any animal's survival is the ability to navigate in their environment. Given Spike most likely lives in the Bahamas (which is the only set of islands I can find in the Bermuda Triangle, not counting Bermude and the other endpoints), navigating in a tropical environment should be Spike's thing. Spike has this: "though it knows when to dodge incoming attacks like shot projectiles"... But at the same time, I feel that really isn't any different from a deer hearing a gunshot, going "Oh shit!", and running off (even though a deer getting hit would just result in a dead deer flailing its legs around on the ground).

For the sake of this, the battle should take place in the Bahamas. The Hunter will be given about eight hours in prep time to allow him to scope out a good part of the region, and he would be allowed all of his optional equipment. Here are their profiles:

The Hunter's Profile
Spike's Profile

Who takes this?

The Guy Who Specializes in Hunting Dinosaurs: 0
The Dinosaur: 0
Inconclusive: 0

 

[AThe1412]

Pretty sure you can only use the 8x oneshot multiplier in a versus match instead of using it to scale characters due to how inconsistent they are in fiction. Hunter at best heavily upscales from 8.53 kg with his strongest weapons. Still, nothing stops him from sniping Spike from kilometers away with tranquilizers.

 

[Flashlight237]

Pretty sure you can only use the 8x oneshot multiplier in a versus match

We're in a Vs Thread right now, dummeh..!

 

[AThe1412]

We're in a Vs Thread right now, dummeh..!

I know that. The way you're using it is wrong.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Yeah, it is my understanding that you cannot in any way boost a character's AP by claiming that they oneshot a character of X value, making them Y value

You can use it in a Vs Thread but only using their base AP numbers. So a 9-B would oneshot a 10-A

So you wouldn't be able to say that Hunter is 7.9x stronger than someone else due to oneshotting them under vs thread guidelines. A character who oneshots someone of 2 tons will still only be 2 tons

 

[Vzearr]

Yes. It's stated in the rules that you can't use it like that.

using it as such a multiplier for powerscaling purposes is considered Calc Stacking.

 

[Flashlight237]

Yeah, it is my understanding that you cannot in any way boost a character's AP by claiming that they oneshot a character of X value, making them Y value

You can use it in a Vs Thread but only using their base AP numbers. So a 9-B would oneshot a 10-A

So you wouldn't be able to say that Hunter is 7.9x stronger than someone else due to oneshotting them under vs thread guidelines. A character who oneshots someone of 2 tons will still only be 2 tons

Yes. It's stated in the rules that you can't use it like that.

One-shot rules say I can use one-shot scaling in Vs Threads exclusively. It's literally in the page for it.

This is a Vs Thread. In indexing, One-shotting 2 tons is 2 tons, but in a Versus Thread exactly like how I used it, one-shotting 2 tons is 15.8 tons.

Why y'all acting like I'm not aware of that?

 

[Flashlight237]

I know that. The way you're using it is wrong.

I'm using it in a Vs Thread, therefore I'm using it right according to the One-Shot article's rules. I provide the value after the multiplier is applied so people don't have to do the mental math themselves.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

That's not how it works

You can't give Hunter a value from oneshotting something. The thing about using it in Vs Threads means that a baseline 9-B would oneshot a baseline 9-C, NOT that you can get a base AP value from a oneshot feat

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If it did work like that, a lot of lower-Tier characters who can one-shot others in their tier would end up being stronger than actual higher-Tier characters, which is definitely not intended. It's really just there to regulate how high the gap between two characters can get before it becomes a stomp, not much else.

 

[Flashlight237]

That's not how it works

You can't give Hunter a value from oneshotting something. The thing about using it in Vs Threads means that a baseline 9-B would oneshot a baseline 9-C, NOT that you can get a base AP value from a oneshot feat

Read this part:

"This gap is only valid in versus threads; it does not apply to in-universe feats of one-shotting other characters, as using it as such a multiplier for powerscaling purposes is considered Calc Stacking"

I'm using the multiplier where it is valid: in a Vs Thread. Me providing the value in the OP is NOT using it for in-universe feats, indexing, powerscaling, calc-stacking, or anything that is unrelated to a Vs Thread: it is providing the end result of the multiplier being done the way it's meant to be used (Vs Threads) for the convenience of those who don't want to have to do the math themselves. If you don't like it, tell staff to completely invalidate the multiplier even in Vs Threads, because claiming proper use of the multiplier as improper without any prior reading is just plain ignorant.

The multiplier is used where the wiki wants it to be used (exclusively in a Vs Thread) how it's meant to be used (as a multiplier onto the BASE AP value, which the base value is already listed). What else do you want from me?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's not a multiplier. That's the crux of the issue.

 

[Flashlight237]

It's not a multiplier. That's the crux of the issue.

Then why is it literally stated as such even under the guise that it's an approximation literally in the first paragraph of the Vs Thread section of the article?:

"With a humanoid character, versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing an Attack Potency eight times higher than their opponent's durability to one-shot them. This gap comes from the difference between the upper bound of a Human level character's strength (106 Joules) and the energy needed to fragment an average human skull in one blow (838.5 Joules). Note that this value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors; do not assume that a gap of 8× will lead to a one-shot in every conceivable situation."

You don't say "x times" and not call it a multiplier. Now, if the one-shotting was done by hitting the head or the vitals, that's a completely different story. Otherwise, it's basically what's listed unless in-universe AP gaps show otherwise.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Those are the guidelines for the Versus Thread fight itself, not the scaling or one-shots the characters may have outside it.
It literally just exists so that we can say that Character A, who's around 800 joules, would one-shot Character B, who upscales from a measly 60 Joules.
Plus, we sorta list the character's values on their profiles now, it really wouldn't make sense to do so if they're going to be x7.5 their displayed value in Versus Threads, no?

 

[Flashlight237]

Those are the guidelines for the Versus Thread fight itself, not the scaling the characters may have outside it.
It literally just exists so that we can say that Character A, who scales to around 800 joules, would one-shot Character B, who upscales from a measly 60 Joules.
Plus, we sorta list the character's values on their profiles now, it sorta wouldn't make sense to do so if they're going to be x7.5 their displayed value in Versus Threads, no?

And that's what I was trying to tell you; I was not insinuating that the multiplied value applied everywhere but the thread. The multiplier is used purely for the fight itself just like the guidelines wanted me to. I only multiplied the base AP value so you wouldn't have to do any of the math on your end.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

The multiplier is used purely for the fight itself just like the guidelines wanted me to.

It can't be used for the fight either though

Hunter's AP cannot be altered from what it is on his page

The one-shot gap is only so we know a 60j character gets one-shot by a 900j character in a vs thread. It does NOT mean that you can use a one-shot multiplier for vs threads

 

[Flashlight237]

It can't be used for the fight either though

Hunter's AP cannot be altered from what it is on his page

The one-shot gap is only so we know a 60j character gets one-shot by a 900j character in a vs thread. It does NOT mean that you can use a one-shot multiplier for vs threads

Read. Again.

• This gap is only valid in versus threads; it does not apply to in-universe feats of one-shotting other characters, as using it as such a multiplier for powerscaling purposes is considered Calc Stacking.

If it actually worked the way YOU are insinuating it is, it would instead read:

• This gap is invalid even in Vs Threads; it does not apply to in-universe feats of one-shotting other characters, as using it as such a multiplier for powerscaling purposes is considered Calc Stacking.

But it doesn't. It specifically says the gap is valid "Only in Versus Threads." I'm doing thing's how THE WIKI; not I, you, or anyone else here; wants it to be used. If you don't like it, Staff Thread it. Do not interact any further, just do us both a favor and Staff Thread it, because this is how it's been handled for years, and I'm tired of putting my position that I quite honestly never deserved on the line because people suddenly shift their way of thinking against how things have been for years. I can't even BE convenient without the guilt I'm getting right now! So please, just Staff Thread it and leave me be..!

 

[Wokistan]

OP is indeed applying that one shot thing incorrectly. The page that OP chooses to cite says that "...Versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing an Attack Potency eight times higher than their opponent's durability to one-shot them," which doesn't say anything about other characters in the franchise of one of the parties to the match who are relevant for scaling as said other characters would never be the assailant or the opponent. Instead, the words assailant and opponent here are referring to the two parties involved in a match. The rule is essentially just to provide a rule of thumb where in universe evidence or argumentation cannot otherwise pinpoint circumstances under which one character can instantly kill the other. The hunter's AP is not listed as 8*whatever his value is, his AP is just listed as "one shot something of value x" and people can feel free to make their arguments from there as to how much or how little this matters.

It's really not that important, ultimately, it's almost a semantic difference but I could think of a few lines of argumentation it would impact. I'm not sure why OP believes their calc group position to be in jeopardy because a bunch of people think they got a vs thread principle wrong, since that doesn't have anything to do with calcs in the first place. If this is distressing OP, I'd recommend they just log off for a while and take a break, I'm not exactly seeing any misbehavior in the thread from users saying OP is wrong and that in itself is just normal vs thread activity when OPs participate.

 

[Flashlight237]

OP is indeed applying that one shot thing incorrectly. The page that OP chooses to cite says that "...Versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing an Attack Potency eight times higher than their opponent's durability to one-shot them," which doesn't say anything about other characters in the franchise of one of the parties to the match who are relevant for scaling as said other characters would never be the assailant or the opponent. Instead, the words assailant and opponent here are referring to the two parties involved in a match. The rule is essentially just to provide a rule of thumb where in universe evidence or argumentation cannot otherwise pinpoint circumstances under which one character can instantly kill the other. The hunter's AP is not listed as 8*whatever his value is, his AP is just listed as "one shot something of value x" and people can feel free to make their arguments from there as to how much or how little this matters.

It's really not that important, ultimately, it's almost a semantic difference but I could think of a few lines of argumentation it would impact. I'm not sure why OP believes their calc group position to be in jeopardy because a bunch of people think they got a vs thread principle wrong, since that doesn't have anything to do with calcs in the first place. If this is distressing OP, I'd recommend they just log off for a while and take a break, I'm not exactly seeing any misbehavior in the thread from users saying OP is wrong and that in itself is just normal vs thread activity when OPs participate.

You're right; I really need a break.This nonsense is something I have exhibited way too many times before.

I have tried my best to show how much I think it matters. Like, if I pitted The Hunter against someone with an equal listed AP rating, the Hunter's stomping. I can only expect a fairer match if the Hunter were pitted against a someone with a listed AP entire multiples higher, maybe as many multiples as there are fingers on my right hand.

 

[AThe1412]

You're right; I really need a break.This nonsense is something I have exhibited way too many times before.

I have tried my best to show how much I think it matters. Like, if I pitted The Hunter against someone with an equal listed AP rating, the Hunter's stomping. I can only expect a fairer match if the Hunter were pitted against a someone with a listed AP entire multiples higher, maybe as many multiples as there are fingers on my right hand.

80% of Hunter's matches are oneshots.