The Great Sisyphean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 6⌋

[Deagonx]

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

Okay, this first one is a bit different as it's not an ability removal.

"On Every Hit"​

Several of the abilities in Kratos' Norse and Ragnarok keys stipulate "on every hit" or something similar. For example:

Damage Transferal (Via Fallen Ash Armour, which inflicts burn damage on nearby opponents every time damage is taken by the wearer[105])

However, the scans are describing a chance based effect. The scan says "Moderate Perk activation chance to inflict burn damage." This type of language (every time,etc) is present in many abilities with similar scans that are directly describing a chance based ability. I contend that all such justifications be rewritten to directly reference this. So as an example:

Damage Transferal (Via Fallen Ash Armour, which has a moderate chance to inflict burn damage on nearby opponents when damage is taken by the wearer[105])

​

Holy/Chaos Manipulation [Blades of Chaos]​

The blades were forged using Primordial Fire, which is the power source of Helios, the sun.

The Caves of Mount Olympus hold the flame that spawned all others: the Primordial Fire, which long ago was stolen and given to man by the Titan Prometheus. It is the source of Helios' energy.

Primordial just means "existing since the beginning of time." If it spawned all other fires it's natural that it would power Helios as well. None of this really constitutes what we'd expect from "Holy Manip" which is more about using good divine against evil or for healing and miracles. Being vaguely associated with gods doesn't mean the fire has Holy properties.

This is the statement for Chaos Manip:

"Why would [Ares] affix the Blades of Chaos to Kratos' wrists? Chaos--the primordial realm, conquered and brought to order by Ouranos?"

This is far too vague to justify something like Chaos Manipulation. Nothing suggests people who are attacked with the blades are inflicted with chaos energy or chaos magic or something like that. There are attacks that have "chaos" in the name, but these are just physical attacks. Like "Cyclone of Chaos" which is just spinning around with the blades.

Fire Manipulation, Holy Light Projection, & Durability Negation [Light of Dawn]​

In Chains of Olympus, Kratos acquires the Light of Dawn, as shown here. Here's a full demonstration of the light's abilities in-game. And here's how those abilities are reflected on Kratos' profile:

Fire Manipulation, Holy Light Projection and Durability Negation (With the Light of Dawn, which ignores the durability of demons or demonic creatures)

For starters, it's light, not fire. Nothing says it is fire, nor is this implied from its visual depiction. Also, nothing indicates that it is holy. The same goes for durability negation; This is neither shown nor depicted anywhere, as far as I can tell. This might just be a case of missing evidence, but as is this should just be "Energy Projection."

Forcefield Creation [Lightning of Zeus]​

The Lightning of Zeus can create vortexes of lightning. This is not a forcefield.

Tally​

Agree: (3) Deagonx, Catzlaflame, Maverick_Zero_X
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Deagonx]

@Mr. Bambu @DarkGrath @Armorchompy @Catzlaflame @Agnaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara (R.I.P. my goat)

 

[Catzlaflame]

Agree with the “Every Hit” point.

Agree with holy manipulation point. I’m aware a lot of pages currently have holy manipulation listed w/o proving what you described, but as far as we know, standards > precedence.

Agree with chaos manipulation point.

Agree with Fire/Manip point.

With the last point, the scan for the word “vortexes” is broken (js replace “static” with “vignette.”) And yea I agree, although, I could see a vortex theoretically functioning as a barrier, it would need a bit more context; if someone provides that context, will change stance, but as it stands, nuke away.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with everything

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

On Every Hit

Sure.

The blades were forged using Primordial Fire, which is the power source of Helios, the sun.

Helios isn't the sun, he's it's personification but not it.

Primordial just means "existing since the beginning of time."

Within the context of God of War, Primordials and Primordial forces predate time and space in both pantheons.

If it spawned all other fires it's natural that it would power Helios as well. None of this really constitutes what we'd expect from "Holy Manip" which is more about using good divine against evil or for healing and miracles. Being vaguely associated with gods doesn't mean the fire has Holy properties

This is out of context. The Primordial Fire is within his temple and it is he who sustains it, and it's Holy Manipulation comes from the Light of Dawn and it being called the life-giving light of the world.

For starters, it's light, not fire. Nothing says it is fire, nor is this implied from its visual depiction. Also, nothing indicates that it is holy. The same goes for durability negation; This is neither shown nor depicted anywhere, as far as I can tell. This might just be a case of missing evidence, but as is this should just be "Energy Projection."

Holy and demon stuff comes from this.

This is far too vague to justify something like Chaos Manipulation. Nothing suggests people who are attacked with the blades are inflicted with chaos energy or chaos magic or something like that. There are attacks that have "chaos" in the name, but these are just physical attacks. Like "Cyclone of Chaos" which is just spinning around with the blades.

we already have confirmation of Chaos being within the Blades, this is simply information on it's source.

I need a higher quality of Zeus's first scan to judge anything.

 

[Deagonx]

Helios isn't the sun, he's it's personification but not it.
Within the context of God of War, Primordials and Primordial forces predate time and space in both pantheons.
This is out of context. The Primordial Fire is within his temple and it is he who sustains it,

None of this seems relevant to the removals.

Holy Manipulation comes from the Light of Dawn and it being called the life-giving light of the world.
Holy and demon stuff comes from this.

Being a "life giving light" doesn't necessarily make it holy. As for the scan, I see that it is called "Divine Energy" but is that ever substantiated in the games? This game guide is from a different company and would fall under tertiary canon, which new feats cannot be derived from.

we already have confirmation of Chaos being within the Blades, this is simply information on it's source.

This would not justify chaos manipulation unless there's an indication that opponents are being affected by the chaos within the blades itself.

I need a higher quality of Zeus's first scan to judge anything.

The ability in question is in this video

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

None of this seems relevant to the removals.

It is. It's misinformation.

Being a "life giving light" doesn't necessarily make it holy. As for the scan, I see that it is called "Divine Energy" but is that ever substantiated in the games? This game guide is from a different company and would fall under tertiary canon, which new feats cannot be derived from.

The Guides are secondary canon as they have involvement from Sony and the Gow development team.

This would not justify chaos manipulation unless there's an indication that opponents are being affected by the chaos within the blades itself.

Is that an actual requirement?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The ability in question is in this video

Sorry, missed this one. I guess it looks like a forcefield, but it could be just an electric attack blasting enemies away, I'm neutral to it.

 

[Deagonx]

The Guides are secondary canon as they have involvement from Sony and the Gow development team.

The back of the guide thanks Ready at Dawn for "for making a fantastic game and for all their help in bringing this guide together." Without knowing whether the actual writers were involved or what the nature of their involvement was, this doesn't seem substantive enough to call it secondary canon.

Is that an actual requirement?

Chaos Manipulation is the ability to manipulate chaos, fundamentally different than darkness or nothingness. That is, power over disharmony, confusion, disorder, and destructiveness in their most pure and vivid forms.

Chaos Manipulation is primarily used in the form of destruction, such as the destruction of space, time, or even reality itself. Such a being can be the embodiment of chaos, whereas their simple appearance causes everything to become chaotic, such as automatically triggering natural disasters, destruction, or disharmony, confusion, and strife among people. Therefore users can create several external factors that may impede an opponent's chance of victory.

The swords merely "having chaos in them" doesn't seem to satisfy any of this. It doesn't give Kratos "power over disharmony, disorder, destructiveness" in any concrete way that I've seen. It's just... in there.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The back of the guide thanks Ready at Dawn for "for making a fantastic game and for all their help in bringing this guide together." Without knowing whether the actual writers were involved or what the nature of their involvement was, this doesn't seem substantive enough to call it secondary canon.

They helped make the guide, it's endorsed by them.

And don't we consider things such as databooks and guidebooks to be secondary canon by default(when their official of course)?

The swords merely "having chaos in them" doesn't seem to satisfy any of this. It doesn't give Kratos "power over disharmony, disorder, destructiveness" in any concrete way that I've seen. It's just... in there.

Well, we know Chaos(the Primordial) is the source of said chaos, and it has the power to cause the entire Greek World to revert to herself if it de-stabilizes.

So the Blades should naturally backscale.

 

[Deagonx]

They helped make the guide, it's endorsed by them.

They helped "bring it together." The exact nature of this is entirely unknown. This also isn't a databook, it's a game guide by a different company that makes many game guides for various companies. The writers work for a company called "Off Base Productions" and they only make game guides.

Well, we know Chaos(the Primordial) is the source of said chaos, and it has the power to cause the entire Greek World to revert to herself if it de-stabilizes.

So the Blades should naturally backscale.

You would need evidence of Kratos being able to utilize the chaos itself to accomplish something like that. The chaos merely being there doesn't matter if it cannot be shown that he uses it somehow.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

They helped "bring it together." The exact nature of this is entirely unknown. This also isn't a databook, it's a game guide by a different company that makes many game guides for various companies. The writers work for a company called "Off Base Productions" and they only make game guides.

A guidebook is just a game's version of a databook.

And while that is true, we always knew that they had good relationship's with Sony and the God of War writers, after all Cory Barlog and Eric Williams were both extremely involved in the Gow2 guide.

You would need evidence of Kratos being able to utilize the chaos itself to accomplish something like that. The chaos merely being there doesn't matter if it cannot be shown that he uses it somehow

But it's not Kratos who possess it, it's the Blades. And this is simply an ability that Chaos has.

Anyway, I should probably sleep.

 

[Quibster]

I agree with the OP

 

[Deagonx]

But it's not Kratos who possess it, it's the Blades. And this is simply an ability that Chaos has.

Simply having something is not the same as manipulating it.

And while that is true, we always knew that they had good relationship's with Sony and the God of War writers, after all Cory Barlog and Eric Williams were both extremely involved in the Gow2 guide.

Sure, that is helpful for the GOW2 guide (well, Cory Barlog. At that time Eric Williams was just the combat systems designer), but no such acknowledgements are present in the Chains of Olympus guide, and Cory Barlog didn't even work for Ready at Dawn games.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything seems logical, I agree.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Simply having something is not the same as manipulating it.

But not I'm arguing for Kratos manipulating chaos here, it's the Blades who possess Chaos, which can revert others into herself naturally, which qualifies for Chaos Manipulation.

Sure, that is helpful for the GOW2 guide (well, Cory Barlog. At that time Eric Williams was just the combat systems designer), but no such acknowledgements are present in the Chains of Olympus guide, and Cory Barlog didn't even work for Ready at Dawn games.

Cory Barlog worked as a story writer for the game.

Regardless, from what I've seen Guides are usually secondary canon as long as there is official involvement, which we have.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Agree with the “Every Hit” point.

Agree with holy manipulation point. I’m aware a lot of pages currently have holy manipulation listed w/o proving what you described, but as far as we know, standards > precedence.

Agree with chaos manipulation point.

Agree with Fire/Manip point.

With the last point, the scan for the word “vortexes” is broken (js replace “static” with “vignette.”) And yea I agree, although, I could see a vortex theoretically functioning as a barrier, it would need a bit more context; if someone provides that context, will change stance, but as it stands, nuke away.

Sucks for you deagon, if only I’d made this comment a few hours earlier, you would’ve had an evaluating vote lol.

 

[Fireld]

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

 

[Deagonx]

But not I'm arguing for Kratos manipulating chaos here, it's the Blades who possess Chaos, which can revert others into herself naturally, which qualifies for Chaos Manipulation.

I don't know what you mean by "can revert others into herself naturally" but if you're saying the blades can revert things into chaos, we'd need a demonstrative feat.

Cory Barlog worked as a story writer for the game.

Regardless, from what I've seen Guides are usually secondary canon as long as there is official involvement, which we have.

I'd rather not try to handle the "guidebook canonicity" can of worms here, so I'll just leave that for another thread. I'll still be removing "Durability Negation" since that isn't supported by the guidebook either.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I don't know what you mean by "can revert others into herself naturally" but if you're saying the blades can revert things into chaos, we'd need a demonstrative feat

Chaos predates the Greek World and will cause it to revert back into herself shall it de-stabilize, the Blade's chaos is derived from said Primordial realm, and as such, backscales.

 

[Deagonx]

Chaos predates the Greek World and will cause it to revert back into herself shall it de-stabilize, the Blade's chaos is derived from said Primordial realm, and as such, backscales.

Do you have scans that show that the blades do this? If not, it's irrelevant.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Do you have scans that show that the blades do this? If not, it's irrelevant.

No. Do they need their own feats rather then simply back scaling?

 

[Deagonx]

No. Do they need their own feats rather then simply back scaling?

Yes. A certain energy or substance being within a weapon doesn't grant it manipulation of that thing. When we give abilities based on equipment we are saying "by using this equipment, the character gains [X] ability." If I have a sword that is imbued with holy magic, and it has the special ability of hurting unholy things, that'd be Holy Manip through the sword.

If instead the sword simply "had holy magic within it" but there was no outward effect on anything, it didn't change the abilities of the weapon or do anything we'd normally expect divine magic to do, we aren't going to give it holy manipulation. You need to be able to use it somehow. Similarly, there's metal in the sword. Do we give it "metal manip?"

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Alright

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, so setting aside the guidebook canonicity matter for now, are you fine with these changes:

1) Clarifying the "on every hit" entries to reflect the chances
2) Removing Chaos Manip from the blades
3) Removing Dura Neg and Fire Manip from Light of Dawn, keeping Holy Manip for now
4) Removing forcefield creation from Lightning of Zeus

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

1, yes.
2, neutral.
3, Yes to fire, neutral to dura neg.
4) yes.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll close this and apply the changes now.