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The Elder Scrolls possible Upgrades and Downgrades.

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Hmm what larger lore, any examples?

That it's generally vague I can't argue with. However, if we're going to dismiss this on the grounds of it being 'vague' then I don't see why anything in TES is rated at tier 2 at all. Lore in TES is vague by nature, which is clear to any who read it, as it employs in-game narrators.

You never see any tier 2 feats playing the game and any piece of lore describing one is going to be vague and have competition from contradictory information.
 
If you think Mundus is 7D you are obviously overthinking everything. That would make the humans in Mundus 7D, which is ridiculous.
 
You're not reading what I've said so far. I'm saying if we go by the absolute high end interpretation then Mundus should be 7D or more. But if I was pushing this point I would be asking to have the Et Ada moved to 1-C, I'm not; I'm suggesting the et Ada be moved from 2-A to High 2-A possibly higher, that Sithis be moved from High 2-A to low 1-C (possibly at least) and that Vivec either should lose his 2-A likely higher rating or have it changed to unknown.

To be High 2-A the et Ada only have to be 5D. I've provided three, main, separate and distinct pieces of evidence to support this (that while somewhat vague tend to come from reliable sources), each alone is enough to make the Et Ada 5D at least. Let's take all my sources on their own for now with one additional I'd like to expand upon.

1) - There are multiple sources that mention the Daedra's hyperagonal morphology, I've explained how this word very likely refers to higher dimensional objects, due to how it's used in the context of the source and by linking the real life mathematical concepts it is based on, both of which I have either linked or inscribed above. Now let's ignore everything but this point. In this case let's just assume that Mundus has the typical 4D. For the daedra to be hyperagonal they would have to supersede the 4D of Mundus... making them 5D at least. So, accepting this one point is enough to justify the Et Ada up to High 2-A (since they should all scale to each other) and, since he (and his counterpart) supersedes them, Sithis to low 1-C. In this example, Mundus doesn't even need to be higher dimensional.

2) ― Time is said to have 2 dimensions on Mundus. Due to how the Elder Scrolls behave. I'm personally aware of 2 sources for this (there may be more). One comes from a servant of the Daedric prince of Knowledge and the other from the librarian for the mages guild in Skyrim; reputable sources that I have linked and written above, hopefully you read them. This would make Mundus 5D (since time and space dimensions are treated as the same here). This source isn't all that vague and multiple dimensions of time are pretty clearly described. Gywn seemed to agree that this point had some merit before I even added the 2nd source backing up the same point. Again, this alone should be enough to move the Et Ada to High 2-A; since they exist on higher planes and Aetherius is described as a place beyond time and space by a description of an attack in Skyrim, basically what amounts to word of god. At the minimum, it should be beyond the typical 4D to classify as beyond time and space which is all that's needed for the high 2-A rating.

3) ― Finally, there is the mention of movements at strange angles, non-cardinel directions and how you must move "sideways" in place to enter adjacent realms or the parallel version of Nirn known as Lyg. Now these are the vaguest of the sources and I freely admit if this was the only argument I had I would have never suggested an upgrade. This is the source that if taken at its highest interpretation could make for a 7D or greater Mundus (if combined with the extra temporal dimension). But like I said I'm only arguing for High 2-A for most of the gods here.

4) ― Mundus has parallel versions (Lyg being an alternate version of Tamriel) and branching parallel realities caused by dragon breaks (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Break). According to superstring theory (https://phys.org/news/2014-12-universe-dimensions.html) this would make Mundus a 5D construct. Oblivion is also described as manifesting all possibilities which sounds awfully like alternate realities. During dragon breaks and other such shenanigans the only things that are said to consistently remain the same are the planes of the Gods which suggest they exist above them.

Four different points, one not as reliable as the others and another a bit weird, each alone capable of making an upgrade. Now, you said this would make the humans higher dimensional too. Firstly, there are no humans in TES: TES works on the idea of sub-gradiences, everything is connected, from the Godhead at the top to the lowest of mortals at the bottom. Everything is just a small part of the entity or force directly above it. Now, why don't I think the mortals are higher dimensional physically? Well the sources on strange angles only mentions spirits being able to do this, Hyperagonal is only used in reference to Daedra and the time dimensions are restricted to the Scrolls. I think mortals are physically restricted to the normal dimensions, but magic itself is described as hyperagonal and mortals are said to be able to train their hyperagonal senses. I mean it's hypothesized that our (real) universe may have higher dimensions, that doesn't make humans higher dimensional beings, clearly these dimensions would be locked off to us, the same is true here imo.


Taking all of this together is why I went with the upgrade to High 2-A possibly higher and at least low 1-C for Sithis and Anuiel.

Edited (added some links)
 
I've given it some thought and I'd like to bring extra attention to Mundus having parallel version and how certain events like dragon breaks can create branching realities (this is what Bethesda used to make each of the 8 Daggerfall endings canon). Since Mundus assuredly has parallel versions (there is an entire school of magic built on it called Shadow magic ) and realities it HAS to have at least 5 dimensions. Dimensions are coordinates, in our day to day life we need 3 spatial dimensions and 1 time dimension to show where someone or something is, a very basic concept. You can't locate parallel realities using only the basic 4 dimensions you need at least 1 more. And yeah, this all corroborates quite well with points I've already made. This is a basic concept of the many worlds variance of the Multiverse which exists in Hilbert space and a part of String theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse#Level_III:_Many-worlds_interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics


"According to Superstring Theory, the fifth and sixth dimensions are where the notion of possible worlds arises. If we could see on through to the fifth dimension, we would see a world slightly different from our own that would give us a means of measuring the similarity and differences between our world and other possible ones."
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2014-12-universe-dimensions.html#jCp
 
Well, I think that this seems to probably make sense, but I am extremely overworked enough as it is, and do not have the energy to carry out any edits.
 
No worries, there's no rush. I'm sure we have things left to discuss and I doubt everyone is even in agreement yet.

But yeah, I think moving gods to the at least high 2-A possibly higher/ high 2-A possibly higher rating and Sithis and Anuiel to at least low 1-C is a pretty safe bet.
 
I do not thimk that wd know how far above the Aedra and Daedra that Sithis and Anuiel are.
 
True enough. I'm just going along with the sites current reasoning for Sithis and Anuiel's rating. Right now both are at High 2-A, why? Here's the current description on site (Sithis): "Exists on a higher level than the et'Ada, who are already on a higher level than Mundus, older than the Aedra and Daedra, said to have created Lorkha, who is similar in power to Akatosh"


It makes sense; since Sithis and Anuiel exist outside the Aurbis they should logically be on a higher level. So, if the Et Ada get pushed up to High-2A then Sithis and Anuiel need to be at least 6D right, if we go by current reasoning? Which would be low-1C at least?
 
I suppose there is also the fact that Sithis and Anuiel supersede the Aurbis. The Aurbis consisting of three distinct realms all of which can be described a "multiverse" in their own right and not only that but multiverses with their own parallel versions. Sithis and Anuiel exist above all of this, I'd say they overshadow the Et Ada by a huge margin to say the least.
 
The Et Ada seem to have some slight ability to manipulate concepts, probably only the ones they are associated with. Mephala for example can combine and alter the concepts such as deception and sex etc.

"As known in the West, Mephala is the demon of murder, sex, and secrets. All of these themes contain subtle aspects and violent ones (assassination/genocide, courtship/orgy, tact/poetic truths); Mephala is understood paradoxically to contain and integrate these contradictory themes. And all these subtle undercurrents and contradictions are present in the Dunmer concepts of Vivec, even if they are not explicitly described and explained in Temple doctrine."


http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Vivec_and_Mephala
 
Eh I had meant to add this in a much earlier comment but looking back I see I had never done so.

Anyway, just some further information on the word hyperagonal. Now, I'm not a mathematician so I'm not going to pretend that I understand all of this. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here with this difficulty though.

The word hyperagonal seems to be used in connection to magic hypercubes; these are n-dimensional cubes, so in theory the word can be used to describe both a 4D cube and a infinite dimensions cube. It's certainly a vague term if you are trying to be precise, but still crystal clear for our purposes.

http://www.magichypercubes.com/Encyclopedia/b/BentHyperagonal.html

^Scroll down to see usage of the word hyperagonal and hypercubes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_hypercube

^So we all know what hypercubes are.

Heavily associated with the mathematician John R. Hendricks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Hendricks



My guess? The Daedra are some sort of higher dimensional cubes ... which is pretty amusing xD


Please guys feel free to give your opinions.
 
Another user mentioned this but, regardless of whether TES ratings change, it should be made abundantly clear on the main TES page that TES lore is generally vague (I know it is already described as convoluted but this should be added) and sometimes even contradictory. When discussing lore, it is very important to consider who the source is, remember that the vast majority of the information in regard to this series comes from in-narrators (whether that be books or sentient entities).


So yes, make sure to check WHO the source of the information is.
 
I would still rather wait and ask for other fans of the series. We cannot upgrade a Verse like this without consulting others.
 
I definitely agree with this. I've asked Gywn to take another look too and they said they would later.

Unfortunately TES does not seem to have many fans on this site x(
 
Matthew is probably correct. Without Sheoth here to handle the verse anymore, it is hard to properly evaluate any important changes. Perhaps we should highlight this?
 
Okay. I would appreciate if you could inform them about this thread then.
 
I'll try to sum it up once again for newer user, since this is so hard to read. I'll list the points separately.

1) Daedra are described multiple times and by reputable sources (one being a demi-prince, a very high ranking Daedra) as having a "hyperagonal morphology". Originally there was some uncertainty over what this meant, however I linked the real-world maths that uses this and provided links above. Basically, it's used in cohort with magic hypercubes (n-dimensional objects), sources for further reading are above. This is backed up by how the word is used by the game: one source mentions "extra-dimensional" and another mentions how mortals are unable to comprehend daedric morphology. For them to be considered hyperagonal they would have to at least be superior to the typical 4D, none of other sources even matter in this case. Magicka is also described as hyperagonal and mortals are able to train their hyperagonal senses.

2) Mundus seems to have 2 temporal dimensions due to how the scrolls behave, according to a servant of the Daedric prince of knowledge and the librarian for Winterhold college. Since space and time dimensions are treated as the same this would make Mundus 5D by itself. Et Ada seems not to be bound by time and Sithis and Anuiel definitely aren't as they exist outside the Aurbis and the Magna Ge occupy a place that is described by one shout in Skyrim as a place beyond space and time.

3) Mundus has parallel versions, a well-known one has an alternate Nirn known as Lyg, it's inhabited by creatures known as Grabbers who are described as moving at strange angles (note the plural). It's said to enter Lyg you need to move sideways in an unusual manner. Adjacent planes and movements in non-cardinel directions are also described. Dragon breaks are known to create alternate realities and one, known as the warp in the west, was used by Bethesda to make all 8 of Daggerfall's endings canon. Shadow magic is an entire school of magic that manipulates parallel worlds. This all makes sense when you consider that logically Mundus needs to have at least one extra spatial dimension just to be able to describe where these parallel worlds. This is a large part of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics (almost identical to the multiverse Mundus is described as) and super string theory. Again, this alone is enough to move the gods up to at least high 2-A as they transcend parallel worlds. To conclude: Mundus having parallel worlds (uncertain how many but should be a lot since there is a school of magic built on them) means it HAS to have at least one extra spatial dimension, why? Because that is the only way to provide coordinates for WHERE these parallel worlds are, try explaining where parallel worlds are just by using the basic 3 + 1 dimensions, it's impossible. The angles, non-cardinel directions, "sideways" movements all make sense when you consider all of this as a whole.

Sources can be found either in the OP or in some earlier comments.

Three distinct points which are alone capable of moving the Et Ada to high 2-A, taking them together is the reason I suggested the new tier for the Et Ada should be: High 2-A possibly likely higher. It's pretty clear that TES has higher dimensions, definitely 5 at least and very likely more, but since we are never given an explicit number I think the rating I propose is solid. Since Sithis and Anuiel are already rated a tier higher than the Et Ada due to existing on a higher plane (outside the Aurbis) they should logically be moved to at least low 1-C if the Et Ada move up.


Vivec should have his 2-A likely higher rating changed to (probably) unknow. He is rated as he is right now due mostly in part to the "Trials of Vivec" which is an out of game roleplay that has never been acknowledged by Bethesda and partly because of his sermons which are heavily laden with propaganda and thus not the most reliable when it comes to judging Vivec. Vivec probably is powerful, he seems to have achieved CHIM which may be a great power but we have no way of saying for certain as Bethesda has never made clear what CHIM is. The unknown rating seems adequate
 
I'd like to discuss Akatosh and perhaps make a few things clearer.

Why does Akatosh appear to be so powerful compared to his peers? This is something that did not make much sense to me either until recently.

For starters, what is Akatosh? The god of time? Not exactly.

Akatosh is the imperial version of the time god, just as Auriel is the elven representation of time and as Alduin is probably the ancient Nordic god of time. These beings are all faces, or shards of the original time dragon over soul: Aka. A common way of looking at this is the mirror analogy: Aka was once a whole "mirror" which shattered; the largest shards became "beings" like Akatosh, Auriel and Alduin, with smaller shards becoming the lesser dragons. One theory as to what happened to Alduin at the end of Skyrim is that he was reabsorbed by Akatosh as the many shards try to become Aka again. Another way to think of it is to consider all these deities (Akatosh, Auriel and Alduin) to be "faces" of the same god, like the three faces of a pyramid. You can see this in the other divines too: Kyne is the nordic aspect of Kynareth, Tsun the nordic aspect of Zenithar, even Lorkhan has a nordic version in Shor.

This means the planet commonly known as Akatosh should probably be called Aka. Aka was the Et Ada to first take shape and it was through his example that the other Et Ada could "birth" themselves; when Aka created linear time, it made it easier for his peers to also form into more tangible forms, though they did exist prior to this in some other manner.

Akatosh was created by the Marukhati Selective, a sect of the Alessian order, when they removed the Aldmeri aspect from the then time god.

How was this done? Using mythopoeic forces, the belief of mortals. Since the divines are "comatose" the belief of mortals has a huge effect on them, it gives them power, allows them to act and can even change their nature. This is most likely the reason why Akatosh is so powerful in the current kalpa: he is the most widely worshipped god on Nirn. It's been said that the Et Ada may very well be equals were it not for mythopoeic forces.

Mythopoeic forces are generally considered to only affect the divines (might be wrong on this), since the Daedra and Magna Ge did not surrender their regency to create Mundus mortal belief can't manipulate them.

So here we have the source of Akatosh's power and until ESO it was easy to explain why he could so easily defeat his peers: Mundus is the home of the divines, they have a home field advantage there. But in ESO the vestige seemingly bests Molag Bal in his own realm with the help of Akatosh and Meridia. What gives? Well the story is not so simple, for one Molag Bal regenerates pretty much instantly. Who does he blame for his "defeat"? Meridia, no mention of Akatosh as far as I am aware. I'm having some difficulty recalling where the next part comes from but I believe it's also strongly hinted that the vestiges victory over Molag Bal had very little impact on his plan, a plan we are never truly made privy too. Meridia seems to be an interesting being too, here it is said that Meridia is able to manipulate the dragon (Aka) to alter the flow of time; logically, if this is true, she should be able to do this throughout Oblivion and Mundus. Remember for all the fanfare Akatosh really doesn't do much of anything compared to other gods in the series.

Basically the divines + Lorkhan are all schizophrenic :)

Just some information to pad out the TES page.
 
You can inform Trexalfa29 and EvilMegaCookie about this thread, if you wish.
 
The gods should probably get conceptual immortality seeing as they are personified embodiments of their spheres.
 
Yes that one is pretty easy to figure out. So them looking up and down would probably be another dimension of time.
 
Hmm. Still no replies, despite that I highlighted this thread.
 
I'd edited the OP to add an up to date summary at the top so it's easier to find for new comers and just easier to access in general since this thread is a bit of a mess.
 
Well, if we get no more informed staff input, I am afraid that we will likely have to keep the profiles as is, in order to stay on the safe side.
 
Yes, I agree, I wouldn't feel comfortable with such little input. But would it be fine to keep this discussion open so I can bump it occasionally?
 
I suppose so, but do not do so too frequently.
 
Regrettably, it does not seem like we will get any further input here.
 
I'll remind people who I asked earlier but I'm not in any rush anyways: the new Morrowind expansion for Elder Scrolls Online is releasing soon and that may provide further clarification as it is at the heart of much of the information we have on the cosmology.
 
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