The Boys discussion thread

[GodlyCharmander]

The same A-Train who consistently at his peak is Transonic~Supersonic

A-Train also has several feats that contradict his own stated speed as well. So this is, truly, a mismatch of statements vs feats, depends which one we will prioiritize for The Boys. It's also weird to consider A-Train's stated speed but not Homelander's.

I mean for the Deltarune thread you closed it before the mods revoted, so who knows if it would've went that way or not.

Qawsed, I'm not dedicating any more of my time to fight for the obvious if the obvious will have that much of a resistance. It was a 2v3 voting for removing FTL from a TOBY FOX GAME. I will just wait for Chapter 5 and watch this scaling crash and burn even harder. Not that I'm going to make any threads on it, I'm done with the verse.

Back to the Boys though, we can simply admit the verse is extremely inconsistent and just pick a reasonable bound. I don't think Subsonic is it, Supersonic, aka, Mach 1.5, is appropriate imo.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He is consistently transonic+

"Consistently",

99% of his speed feats aren't measurable, what do you mean consistent, we have two statements on it.

 

[Tapkmiz]

Again, what exactly is the argument against the Homelander scaling to his flight speed in reactions beyond the anti-feat? He accelerates near instantaneously in almost every scene he flies in, if his ability to control his body (because that's what reaction time is ultimately: the speed at which you can physically move in response to stimuli) were really that much lower then he'd be crashing every time he flies. He displays consistent control of his body while flying at top speeds, so what exactly is missing here beyond the showrunners not bothering to display this in fights (which could have several origins, the obvious one is practical, namely budget).

If the site standards don't allow that to be backscaled then I simply think the standards are bad and commitment to them is banal.

 

[Ethnikistis]

I agree about the complaint that Vought is at least as evil as Homelander and remains an enormous threat that should be taken care of, but I think that dealing with it is reserved for future shown set in The Boys universe, due to being mandated by Amazon wanting to squeese as much story content as possible out of the property for long term viewing purposes.

And I also agree about that the more powerful and competent Gen V characters should have logically helped in the fight against Homelander, but it was likely cut due to the showrunners being required to fit everything into just 8 episodes, or because they were initially planned to all survive for their own spinoff show, and because it wouldn't have fit thematically for a coherent The Boys show narrative if one of them had saved the day by exploding the blood in Homelander's brain, for example.

Im just grateful that the Finale wasn't only about Homelanders death and expanded on Butcher's character.
Also why do you guys think that Ryan considered Butcher a bad person?
You could say because he kills many people on a daily basis and had questionable ways to kill Homelander morality -wise.And that he tends to manipulate and take advantage of people in order to reach his one true goal.

 

[Antvasima]

This ending was bad and underwhelming.
I'm not even going to bother with the powerscaling of this verse anymore.

I think that it worked well on a thematic level, but that there were a few illogical aspects that I mentioned above, that were likely forced upon the showrunners.

 

[Ethnikistis]

"Consistently",

99% of his speed feats aren't measurable, what do you mean consistent, we have two statements on it.

Stated to run at Mach 1.3 , couldn't get faster with training, had to resort to temporary boosts by compound V to win a slightly faster opponent.

This is pretty much the narrative putting Atrain at transonic-supersonic.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

A-Train has several statments and feats in this range and is quite consistently placed here over several seasons

It's really two. He also has several other feats that are far above that range, so it is kinda of a CW Flash situation, just not nearly as egregious. If we calculate every single statement he has about speed that isn't a m/s counter, it's going to yield supersonic to hypersonic results.

 

[Dalesean027]

99% of his speed feats aren't measurable, what do you mean consistent, we have two statements on it

He has way more than 2 statements for measuring his speed

A-Train also has several feats that contradict his own stated speed as well

Dure but combine the amount of in scren feats + statements that contradict the frozen time scene its clear which outweighs the other, especially when we know the narrative intent is that A-Train is a transonic ~ supersonic speedster its quite literally his whole thing.

I don't think Subsonic is it, Supersonic, aka, Mach 1.5, is appropriate imo.

This is cherrypicking, its a flight speed feat that doesn't scale to combat and reactions and he isn't having to react to any specifc movement or objects

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is pretty much the narrative putting Atrain at transonic-supersonic.

The narrative is both statements and feats, you know that, right? The narrative simultaneously concur that he's Mach 1.1 to Mach 1.3, but still has him realizing feats that would make him hypersonic or more.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

The issue is more that Homelander has no demonstrated showings of fighting at Mach 200. He doesn't have an A-Train super speed scene, he doesn't have DCEU-esq super speed scenes, and he doesn't even have CW-esq super speed scenes.

He technically does have one scene like that in the final episode of the Diabolical animated anthology series (with the final episode confirmed by WoG to be canon to The Boys TV series) plus in the same episode he tanks a tier 8 explosion with seemly no damage.

Similar to the MCU, animation as a medium will always be an easier way to depict impressive feats over live action. Won't comment if the feats are still valid or not though.

 

[BruhMomento0260]

It's just disappointing to me, not the worst. Major letdown but I'll get over it and learn to appreciate the highs we had.

The show is still a 7/10 for me. Could've been 8/10 with consistency but uh... Yeah.

Also while the previous season, S4, was undoubtedly a weak season, I still think Homelander confronting his past in the lab was a phenomenal, psychologically thrilling sequence that made me personally give that season a little more points than the average person liked.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He has way more than 2 statements for measuring his speed
Dure but combine the amount of in scren feats + statements that contradict the frozen time scene its clear which outweighs the other, especially when we know the narrative intent is that A-Train is a transonic ~ supersonic speedster its quite literally his whole thing.

The amount of on-screen feats that contradict transonic-supersonic too. It's really a matter of which interpretation we prefer here. Some statements about his speed far outclass the supersonic cap. It's fine to argue for the statements above the feats that were likely written by ignorant writers.

This is cherrypicking, its a flight speed feat that doesn't scale to combat and reactions and he isn't having to react to any specifc movement or objects

He can fight, shoot lasers, and tag people relative to his flight speed, other characters have reacted to his flight speed as well. It's, quite literally, not cherry-picking at all. Unless you're asking us to ignore all the instances we see Homelander doing just that?

 

[Ethnikistis]

The narrative is both statements and feats, you know that, right? The narrative simultaneously concur that he's Mach 1.1 to Mach 1.3, but still has him realizing feats that would make him hypersonic or more.

The narrative is what the author thinks fits a character stats in order for the story to function normally.

The author doesn't calculate every time Homelander flies to space to ******* jerk off or something,and ends up making outlier feats that dont fit the narrative.

 

[Reiner04]

And I also agree about that the more powerful and competent Gen V characters should have logically helped in the fight against Homelander, but it was likely cut due to the showrunners being required to fit everything into just 8 episodes, or because they were initially planned to all survive for their own spinoff show, and because it wouldn't have fit thematically for a coherent The Boys show narrative if one of them had saved the day by exploding the blood in Homelander's brain, for example.

If it were 13 episodes long, as someone said it was originally supposed to be, it would have been great.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The narrative is what the author thinks fits a character stats in order for the story to function normally

We actually, again, don't care about what an author thinks at all outside of what they wrote. If you make the story say your character is Mach 20, but he's performing MFTL+ feats, we will index him as MFTL+.

 

[Dalesean027]

He technically does have one scene like that in the final episode of the Diabolical animated anthology series (with the final episode confirmed by WoG to be canon to The Boys TV series) plus in the same episode he tanks a tier 8 explosion with seemly no damage.

Similar to the MCU, animation as a medium will always be an easier way to depict impressive feats over live action. Won't comment if the feats are still valid or not thought.

The scene qaw was referring to earlier he already spoke on how that doesn't support this since its not so fast that its imperceptible, the feat is like superhuman~low subsonic

He can fight, shoot lasers, and tag people relative to his flight speed, other characters have reacted to his flight speed as well. It's, quite literally, not cherry-picking at all.

Not a soul tags him when he's flying at speeds above subsonic or is more than just a few meters off the ground, dude is consistently much slower when flying while in combat and just uses short subsonic burst when he needs ground but its very evident on screen and he is still very much perceptible to all people he's not invisible to people while moving like A-Train was

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We actually, again, don't care about what an author thinks at all outside of what they wrote. If you make the story say your character is Mach 20, but he's performing MFTL+ feats, we will index him as MFTL+.

In fact, as the example I've cited time and time again, we literally already do that.

 

[Ethnikistis]

We actually, again, don't care about what an author thinks at all outside of what they wrote. If you make the story say your character is Mach 20, but he's performing MFTL+ feats, we will index him as MFTL+.

Now youre abandoning your last point about the narrative.

Anything that doesn't fit the narrative doesn't cut it for me,i think its unreasonable to consider them legit.
Narrative>Feats
Since most feats that dont fit the narrative can be considered an outlier.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not a soul tags him when he's flying at speeds above subsonic or is more than just a few meters off the ground, dude is consistently much slower when flying while in combat and just uses short subsonic burst when he needs ground but its very evident on screen and he is still very much perceptible to all people he's not invisible to people while moving like A-Train was

A-Train chase sequence is evidence of him scaling to his max flight speed.
He can accelerate instantly, the show establishes that pretty consistently.
He is tagged by Soldier Boy's combat speed (pulls Homelander before he can fly away)

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

It's just disappointing to me, not the worst. Major letdown but I'll get over it and learn to appreciate the highs we had.

The show is still a 7/10 for me. Could've been 8/10 with consistency but uh... Yeah.

Also while the previous season, S4, was undoubtedly a weak season, I still think Homelander confronting his past in the lab was a phenomenal, psychologically thrilling sequence that made me personally give that season a little more points than the average person liked.

Same, S4 is the weakest season for me too but that episode of confronting HLs trauma and understanding how he became a monster was pretty poetic. It showed us he wasn't born evil, cruel and sadistic instead he was groomed into becoming a product by scientists that saw him as a weapon not a human and he never had a family but it doesn't just justify John's awful actions as an adult. You can add nuance and context on why a character is evil without trying to redeem them in anyway and that episode of The Boys did it well (the best of episode in an otherwise subpar S4 let's be honest).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Now youre abandoning your last point about the narrative

I'm not.

Writing a feat, is narrative.
Stating how fast that feat was, is also narrative.

We just value one way more than the other.

Narrative>Feats
Since most feats that dont fit the narrative can be considered an outlier.

What a take, too bad that's not how things work here. Say a character is stated to be Mach 1, at their absolute peak.

But there's, let's say, 20 vigentillion instances where the character, objectively, performed a faster-than-light feat, in all the story, he crosses planets and universes mid-conversation, etc.

How should we index that character, in your opinion?

 

[Dalesean027]

A-Train chase sequence is evidence of him scaling to his max flight speed

He doesn't need to have reactions on par with his flight speed to react to A-Train to begin with.

He legit doesn't need to be comparable in reactions tbh if he's already flying at a speed thats comparable to A-Train even if he is ultimately slower.

A-Train wasn't really doing complex maneuvers during the chase and loses some momentum on sharp turns so it wasn't exactly hard for homelander to give chase and try and aim ahead.

Homelander already has slight superhuman reactions which land around low subsonic already so as long as bro has the flight speed to keep up he should have no trouble reacting to someone who basically for the most part is running in a simple straight line path for the most part especially since bro wasn't doing any complex running maneuvers or busting sharp turns that would require said reactions

Legit this is like saying Homelander's reactions scale to the time he shot the plane down since he was flying at a speed comparable to it when he did it

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

The scene qaw was referring to earlier he already spoke on how that doesn't support this since its not so fast that its imperceptible, the feat is like superhuman~low subsonic

Ahhh... fair enough (ironically still likely John's best combat speed feat lol!)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Its not about it suddenly being an increase to reaction speed, no one said that, I said he doesn't need to have reactions on par with his flight speed to react to A-Train to begin with.

You're right about A-Train.

If their relative velocity is almost 0, he would really just need to react to a normal dude, in terms of turning his neck, etc. Alright, I concede.

Homelander already has slight superhuman reactions

You know Homelander has feats that put his reaction close to his flight speed even if we don't make the connection.

Plus, the fact he insta-accelerates to max speed, and people have been able to intercept him is also a decent piece of evidence.

About A-Train being invisible, that's also super inconsistent, sometimes he's just a blur, same as HL

 

[Ethnikistis]

I'm not.

Writing a feat, is narrative.
Stating how fast that feat was, is also narrative.

We just value one way more than the other.



What a take, too bad that's not how things work here. Say a character is stated to be Mach 1, at their absolute peak.

But there's, let's say, 20 vigentillion instances where the character, objectively, performed a faster-than-light feat, in all the story, he crosses planets and universes mid-conversation, etc.

How should we index that character, in your opinion?

Im saying that if a character is implied by the narrative to cap around supersonic then one or two feats that he has that put him above that are outliers.

Same with A train,I dont recall anything other than the time in a bottle scene putting him above Mach1.3

 

[GodlyCharmander]

implied by the narrative to cap

If the narrative itself can't keep that statement consistent, what the narrative decides is irrelevant. Answer my question.

 

[GunshyFever]

I just finished watching the finale myself and despite the fight scale not being that large, I still enjoyed the final fight sequence, especially all the references to the comics. They could have made the scale much larger to make Homelander seem more threatening at the very least. But I am glad we ended on the note that we did because I could definitely see it with the setup that we got. Butcher's death was unfortunate, but what led up to it was a major case of morality and ethics. Either way, after killing Homelander, Ryan left and Terror passed, so he had nothing, which led him to become irrational.

All in all, this ending really did clutch up for me. The season could have used a lot more work, especially in trying to make the scale and presence feel bigger, but what's done is done. To me overall, The Boys is a solid 7.5/10. Loved it.

 

[Ethnikistis]

If the narrative itself can't keep that statement consistent, what the narrative decides is irrelevant. Answer my question.

I only remember two feats that put Atrain above his stated speed.
The bomb vest feat
The time in a bottle
And the Finale space feat.

I dont think how 3 feats are enough to ignore the narrative.

 

[Dalesean027]

You're right about A-Train.

If their relative velocity is almost 0, he would really just need to react to a normal dude, in terms of turning his neck, etc. Alright, I concede.


You know Homelander has feats that put his reaction close to his flight speed even if we don't make the connection.

Plus, the fact he insta-accelerates to max speed, and people have been able to intercept him is also a decent piece of evidence.

About A-Train being invisible, that's also super inconsistent, sometimes he's just a blur, same as HL

The absolute most I would concede is reactions but that would mean that he's untouchable in combat when he isn't so it screws it over and we can't half ass it, I could accept a likely or possibly rating but outright is sus with him consistently being in the same combat speed tier as dudes who for sure aren't higher than subsonic combat and reactions

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I only remember two feats that put Atrain above his stated speed.
The bomb vest feat
The time in a bottle
And the Finale space feat.

I dont think how 3 feats are enough to ignore the narrative.

There isn't a specific threshold where statements overtake blatant feats. Plus, there's many more.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The absolute most I would concede is reactions but that would mean that he's untouchable in combat when he isn't so it screws it over and we can't half ass it, I could accept a likely or possibly rating but outright is sus with him consistently being in the same combat speed tier as dudes who for sure aren't higher than subsonic combat and reactions

The writing is a mess...

 

[LandonTheGuy]

just finished the last ep, and i'll say, it was pretty good (i had a really low expectation), a lil clishe and i hoped homie didn't die that early.

But overall i think it was a good ending and i also liked how they finally remembered that Heghuie is the mc.

i'd say 6.5/10 at most, as this show still had a HUGE decline in writing quality, but not as bad as other episodes for sure.

also there's a scene of homie going and returning from space in a cupple of seconds, so you might wanna check that out because now we got 3 feats that get the verse above transonic

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yo, Fanta here. For the series finale episode, this EP was very lackluster for me. Like... It needed more build up for it to fully pay off, ya' know? Did like the last part with Hughie and Starlight, though. It was nice, even if everything else was pretty half-baked, imo.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Spoiler: Finale~

What the **** was that shit?

That was like, a C-Tier episode. 5/10. For the SERIES FINALE. Like, it wasn't "I would rather chug bleach" awful like Helluva Boss season 2's Finale, but holy shit, it's like they put 3 episodes worth of shit into one episode. Butcher's death was like, the stand-out moment, considering we've been with that C-Bomb for five seasons straight and by God did he not change much for the better... but man I could not be invested in the rest.

Yipee Homelander took someone to space, and we couldn't spare a few hundred dollars on some explosives to give his blows impact. The final fight was fine from a references/choreography standpoint... but that's not a final fight for something that gassed up one of the characters that much.

I get there's spinoff series, but beyond the main conflict being resolved with the deaths we knew were coming, it didn't feel climactic beyond the very end. And that's a problem for me. They did not cook.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Yo, Fanta here.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Spoiler: Finale~

What the **** was that shit?

That was like, a C-Tier episode. 5/10. For the SERIES FINALE. Like, it wasn't "I would rather chug bleach" awful like Helluva Boss season 2's Finale, but holy shit, it's like they put 3 episodes worth of shit into one episode. Butcher's death was like, the stand-out moment, considering we've been with that C-Bomb for five seasons straight and by God did he not change much for the better... but man I could not be invested in the rest.

Yipee Homelander took someone to space, and we couldn't spare a few hundred dollars on some explosives to give his blows impact. The final fight was fine from a references/choreography standpoint... but that's not a final fight for something that gassed up one of the characters that much.

I get there's spinoff series, but beyond the main conflict being resolved with the deaths we knew were coming, it didn't feel climactic beyond the very end. And that's a problem for me. They did not cook.

yeah they couldn't exeed the expectations with so little time left, but i do not feel it was a total shit

 

[Alexander]

Did the Deep die?is the guy still alive?

 

[RanaProGamer]

Holy bloody hell, it's actually over. 9/10 overall show. Wish the rest of the final season was just as good as the first and final episode, which I think were bangers

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Did the Deep die?is the guy still alive?

u wanna be spoiled?

 

[Legion350]

Lol,

Spoiler: Finale

I can't believe the Deep got killed by Cthulhu (finally made his big screen debut). So was the finale dogshit, well no. Was it good, not really. I thought it came out okay. Liked how they did a callback to comic Noir's death since the show version of HL is basically Comic Homelander & Noir stapled together. I did like the final moments with Hughie and Butcher. I don't mind that Homelander being defeated like that, but Kripke really shouldn't have leaned into talking about the Apocalyptic scale, if that's the end.

I think this is still a bad-end (in-universe, not in terms of quality), even though it's treated like a bittersweet ending. At best it's a return to a worse form of the original status quo. Now they have actually supervillains running around (rogue Vought Supes), and the company spearheading Homelander's creation returned full force. I think Edgar has the same problem Homelander did. The acting is so great that the audience forgets he's a piece of shit. I'd argue him regaining the company is worse than any other option (for the general public) besides Homelander succeeding, since he's competent. The company experimented on babies and own the concentration camps Homelander used. Not only is Edgar one of the causes behind Homelander, but Stillwell's grooming HL also was part of how they originally kept him in line, so he's probably a weirdo too.

It feels like a waste narratively, because some of the important characters were heavily sidelined most of the season. The show was a victim of not knowing what it wanted to be. If the point is to make a commentary, then frankly they didn't stick the landing, on most fronts. If the point was to build the VCU, then they also didn't stick the landing by building it organically. Gen V foreshadowing went nowhere.

TLDR:
All of the jokes about the MCU and DC are amusing in hindsight, bc the Boys speed ran through the MCU decline in two seasons. Glad it's not a GoT level disaster ig. I won't be watching any of the spin offs, bc they showed they were willing to rush the final season, and the ideas don't seem interesting anyways.