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The Boys discussion thread

What aspect of the fight implied HL is subsonic? I must've missed that
The fact the entire fight exist as a whole as a huge Anti-feat the idea that he's anything above subsonic in combat in reaction since The Boys sure as hell aren't any higher and have several dozen anti-feats/feats at this level or scaling to other supes who cap at this level, they also in tbe same episode literally get blitzed by sound based attacks and then homelander has to high diff them in combat and he isn't dodging everything so its clear his reactions don't scale which like is all he potentially could have gotten from the space flight speed feat outside of travel speed.


The entire fight is also broadcast live with regular film camera's and they aren't just imperceptable blurs meanwhile A-Train needed high speed camera's just to be watched it vought tower. Also the 3 MHS things from this season alone does not outweight several dozen anti-feats, statenents, or feats that placed them way lower and are more numerously consistent then a few 1 off high end feats that do contradicts basically every previous showing in the series
 
Agreed. The show tells you time and time again Homelander is the way he is because of Vought being comically evil and turning a child into a product. Yet Stan isn't punished despite overseeing the project that was dedicated to torturing saidchild. It genuinely annoys me how the fanbase glazes Stan Edgar as this "Stoic, Stone-Faced Sigma with aura" when he is legit a piece of shit he deserved a fate worse than death, but people gloss over this fact cause "aura bro".

This is another reason why I think it's a very poorly written finale, not just scale or stakes. Where's Stan's punishment?
I mean, can you deny that he has aura, tho?
 
The fact the entire fight exist as a whole as a huge Anti-feat the idea that he's anything above subsonic in combat in reaction since The Boys sure as hell aren't any higher and have several dozen anti-feats/feats at this level or scaling to other supes who cap at this level, they also in tbe same episode literally get blitzed by sound based attacks and then homelander has to high diff them in combat and he isn't dodging everything so its clear his reactions don't scale which like is all he potentially could have gotten from the space flight speed feat outside of travel speed.


The entire fight is also broadcast live with regular film camera's and they aren't just imperceptable blurs meanwhile A-Train needed high speed camera's just to be watched it vought tower. Also the 3 MHS things from this season alone does not outweight several dozen anti-feats, statenents, or feats that placed them way lower and are more numerously consistent then a few 1 off high end feats that do contradicts basically every previous showing in the series
I mean Butcher could react to Homies flight speed.But he also got blitzed by Bombsight.
 
As I mentioned before, I think Homelander’s reaction speed should scale to his flight speed, but his combat speed should scale to lower like subsonic.
 
I mean Butcher could react to Homies flight speed.But he also got blitzed by Bombsight.
Both scenes were in the subsonic range too visually but homelander didn't even get to fully take off before getting caught up but he sure as shit couldn't react while trying to fly away which would be a anti-feat to flight scaling to general combat and reactions
 
Now I'm a little convinced that Soldier Boy is stronger than Homelander. Kimiko fainted after unleashing her power blast, which means Soldier Boy was also weakened during his fight with Homelander.

Soldier Boy is far more powerful, as he was able to overpower Bombsight, who was stronger than Homelander.
 
Now I'm a little convinced that Soldier Boy is stronger than Homelander. Kimiko fainted after unleashing her power blast, which means Soldier Boy was also weakened during his fight with Homelander.

Soldier Boy is far more powerful, as he was able to overpower Bombsight, who was stronger than Homelander.
But the series tells you time and time again that Homelander is marginally stronger than SB and the upgrade. Like literally tailored to be better than him. They say that multiple times. The Boys just suffers from inconsistent scaling.
 
Both scenes were in the subsonic range too visually but homelander didn't even get to fully take off before getting caught up but he sure as shit couldn't react while trying to fly away which would be a anti-feat to flight scaling to general combat and reactions
So confusing man.But yeah you could argue that the flight that Butcher reacted to was slower due to visual indicators.
 
I don't really get the separation in this case. We do know the Homelander - even as a young inexperienced Supe - has super speed on foot, as shown in Diabolical when he disarms the people in his first save. I think you'd have to go through a lot of hoops to argue Homelander physically moving his own body through space doesn't require some degree of reactions comparable to the speeds at which he's moving.
I mean the Diabolical scene is the worst example of super speed. Normal humans can visibly track and move entire body parts in response to Homelander. It doesn't support that he can fight at mach 200~
 
I mean the Diabolical scene is the worst example of super speed. Normal humans can visibly track and move entire body parts in response to Homelander. It doesn't support that he can fight at mach 200~
Right this is literally superhuman~low subsonic which is consistent for the series
 
Shouldn't we focus more on the artistic accomplishment of the series ending than just attempting to powerscale from it?

Eric Kripke said that he was worried about not being able to accomplish a sufficiently good and satisfying ending, but I think that he genuinely managed to truly pull it off. 🙏
How about we powerscale Homelander offering to blow Butcher? Might make for a pretty decent scale all things considered
 
But the series tells you time and time again that Homelander is marginally stronger than SB and the upgrade. Like literally tailored to be better than him. They say that multiple times. The Boys just suffers from inconsistent scaling.
Yeah, Homelander should be the strongest supe, as confirmed by Antony Starr and Eric Kripke. But how can this statement be convincing without a single feat?
 
Shouldn't we focus more on the artistic accomplishment of the series ending than just attempting to powerscale from it?

Eric Kripke said that he was worried about not being able to accomplish a sufficiently good and satisfying ending, but I think that he genuinely managed to truly pull it off. 🙏
Yeah I think we should appreciate that the ending turned out decent.
I also really liked the finale especially Butchers death,great scene and conclusion to a character.
RIP terror(The dog actor irl died)
 
It’s kinda funny to me how the series has crazy nuke level statements but no feats supporting that, while the speed scaling is kinda the other way around with great feats but a ton of statements contradicting it.
 
I think a major issue with the ending is that the show didn't really bother trying to prove Butcher wrong. There really isn't anything stopping Vought from just making another Homelander and starting all this shit again since they got away with everything and aren't really being punished. They made their "magnum opus" with Soldier Boy but then pushed the envelope again with Homelander so who's to say that they won't just do it a third time? And there's no real way to stop them.
 
Lowkey the ending of The Boys wasn't terrible like GoT or filled with as many plot holes as Stranger Things (that requires going to an extremely limited access stage play, just to cover few of those holes), it was a good to even great episode but a shallow finale imo.

*How the Gen V cast were retroactively treated is actually diabolical and made most of their stories in the greater The Boys universe kinda pointless. Like how you going to hype up Marie has this Homelander level supe? but unlike John Milk she truly wants to help/actually save people, she actually has healthy relationships and has clear remorse if/when innocent people get hurt or killed (for most of her teen life she literally hated and blamed herself for killing her parents as well as traumatising her sister, only realising much later her parents knowingly let both her and her a sister get experimented on and thus were far from blameless for their own deaths as well as the years of trauma both Marie and Annabeth went through) and after all that, you just have her appear for barely 5 mins tops in the finale to save people and go to Canada? (all off-screen btw). WTF Eric Kripke!?

*Also just like episode 7 of this season, the finale also screamed of "clear budgeting and scheduling issues" like WHERE ARE Cate, Sam, Annabeth and the other young supes? (also a big missed opportunity to have Zoe join the Gen V cast imo). The fact I was relieved to see Emma for the whole of two minutes of screen time she had this season was ridiculous (also notice how none of the Gen V characters actually got to show off their powers at all? We didn't even get to see Jordan in they male body). I won't go into all the details about the advertising since it's already getting bashed all over social media right now for being misleading but yeah we were baited about the actual scope of the final season with it being all localised brawls, again with "the budget" (pretty sure Noir 2 was the one that did the most destructive feat and technically has the highest kill count in the entire final season, with the long term environment damage he caused from breaking the Alaskan oil pipeline, which only makes his death to The Deep even more disrespectful and funnier).

*The fact Vought is still around with the tower intact, Stan back on top and essentially proving himself right, that even with bad products like Homelander gone, you can't kill the status quo of the corrupt rich people (greedy corporations/banks) always winning aka the true "villains" of capitalist societies, is a pretty cynical take but it does fit in with The Boys. Also is Zoe and her dad still on the run or did Stan take them in?

*Kinda hilarious to me that Sage got a similarly good ending to Queen Maeve after all the murders, torture of young supes and emotional manipulation (she straight up slept with The Deep and Noir 2) she played a hand in while supporting Homelander and just like Butcher she was all for scorched Earth too as long as she had isolation in the end. I guess she really did outsmart the system and plot even without her intelligence.

*Homelander having a pathetic death live on TV was truly fitting and it parallels well with him looking down on The Deep for being an afraid, begging and useless wimp only for John to end up as an afraid, begging and useless wimp in front of Butcher, The Deep got what he deserved too plus pretty satisfying that Noir 2 inevitably played a hand in The Deep's death even beyond the grave (so much for bros huh?) also possibly building level giant octopus? prffft /s, Oh Father dying to a metal ball gag reverberating his sonic scream back into his skull (that Ashely had specially made for him during sexy times) was hilarious too, Ashely getting impeached then arrested was a fitting end after her brief moment of moral clarity and to the suprise of absolutely no-one, Terror dying ment Butcher's humanity died with him thus William had to be put down like a rabid dog before he could commit genocide which ofc it had to be Hughie who did the deed (the supe killing virus is still in the Vought Tower sprinkler system though, so did Hughie tell Stan about it or...?)

**While I liked the endings The Boys got (especially MM), though I did find it a little creepy that Starlight was ok naming her unborn daughter after Hughie's dead ex, a ton of ramifications weren't addressed but I guess it'll be explained in Vought Rising and/or The Boys: Mexico?

1) Kimiko is a living and breathing nuclear reactor (just like Solider Boy) and she is casually walking around France passively emitting radiation, like ok? Also I guess the Shining Light Liberation Army and Nina have both truly given up trying to pursue her?

2) Marie is stated to be on Homelander's level plus she can heal, rejuvenate and even resurrect others so what's next for a supe that powerful? (I feel like that line about about her not being able to "control her powers" in The Boys S5 despite having full control of her powers at the end of Gen V S2, was a cheap plot contrivance to write her out of the final battle and explain her not using her powers at all in The Boys even for just support).

3) There was seemly very little global response to two presidents of the USA being gone in quick succession (one murdered and the other impeached in the matter of weeks of each other). Like aside from Bashley briefing mentioning NATO, the geopolitics in The Boys S5 was non-existent.

4) There are still plenty of depraved supes out there and supes that obviously want to do good too, so what's actually stopping Vought from just maintaining the status quo of cover ups, corporate manipulation and other corrupt deeds? Sure the current president is going to watch Vought like an Eagle armed with a gun but Stan clearly has dirt on pretty much everyone in the government plus access to supes with telepathy too, so what's next?

5) For me the biggest ramification that was left kinda unchecked, well Butcher mentioned that as long as supes exists, inevitably another Homelander will rise up (he isn't really wrong tbh) but worse what's stopping another Frederick Vought from rising up? He was an intelligent yet still regular man that created V1 which granted super powers and immortality decades ago during the 1940s but the drawback was it was very unstable and most subjects that took it died. Fast forward to now, with more advanced technology, far more accessibility to both education as well as general information not to mention a better understanding of the human anatomy/psyche and the world now is filled with thousands of super-powered individuals. What's stopping another ambitious scientist rising up in the USA, China, India, Russia, Japan or elsewhere in the world of The Boys and improving if not perfecting Frederick Vought's work?

***Overall I enjoyed my time with The Boys, even if a few times I did have to look away and I did feel some gory as well as sexual moments were completely unnecessary even in a cynical deconstruction of the Superhero genre (though nowhere need as bad as the comic). For me the ratings are:

1st) S1 8.5/10
2nd) S3 8/10
3rd) S2 7/10
4th) S5 6/10
5th) S4 5/10

Overall: 6.9/10 (this wasn't intentional I swear).

****Still a little bitter my time invested in Gen V may have been wasted since I actually enjoyed the spin-off more than The Boys but I won't dwell on it for long. Just wish the final season didn't have a good chuck of it's content be setup for Vought Rising (S4 of The Boys was already the setup season), had an entire episode being mostly a Supernatural reunion (save that for an one off special) and personally Butcher should not of immediately teamed up with the rest of The Boys in the first episode of S5 after going into the super cancer deep end at the end of S4.

*****In closing, the final season definitely needed at least an extra episode while also not giving unnecessary screen time to new characters introduced in the final season over pre-established fan favourites (yes I'm still miffed a cat girl that ***** in a litterbox got more screen time than the Gen V cast) but overall I still enjoyed it for what it was and the endings of GoT and ST were worst but The Boys is definitely on the weaker end of conclusions imo.

Well that's was a lot, pardon lol!

^WARNING VERY LONG COMMENT AND RANTING!
 
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Homelander's ending dissected that sadistic evil bullies drunk on tyranny and overwhelming physical power are almost always hollow, pathetic, and cowardly at their core, not remotely something to admire and look up to, so I thought that it was extremely fitting for him.
The problem is that we already knew all of this. We've had multiple seasons worth of seeing Homelander be weak and pathetic deep down. If you want your big villain going out like a loser to actually have any impact then they need to be threatening beforehand and Homelander just hasn't been threatening for two entire seasons. They showed him crying and begging on live TV but the world never actually got to see how horrible he truly was, they just saw him act super damn weird and then die. Even the plane crash was brushed aside as AI. Even right before he dies we see him be pathetic about how nobody will ever actually love or respect him and its all just fear. Having him be on a major high would make his fall all the better but we don't get that.
 
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*Kinda hilarious to me that Sage got a similarly good ending to Queen Maeve after all the murders, torture of young supes and emotional manipulation (she straight up slept with The Deep and Noir 2) she played a hand in while with Homelander and just like Butcher was all for scorched Earthtoo as long as she had isolation in the end. I guess she really did outsmart the system even without her intelligence.
Don't forget all the stuff she pulled with Godolkin and his host plus trying to start a world war
 
at least the ending wasn't Game of Thrones or CSM levels of ass.
I agree. People are saying this finale is even worse than the Game of Thrones one, but that’s just impossible. GoT still has the worst series finale I’ve ever watched (but it’s still the best show overall).
 
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Fine. I will do it myself. You want Scorched earth ? I will give you scorched earth.
 
The fact the entire fight exist as a whole as a huge Anti-feat the idea that he's anything above subsonic in combat in reaction since The Boys sure as hell aren't any higher and have several dozen anti-feats/feats at this level or scaling to other supes who cap at this level, they also in tbe same episode literally get blitzed by sound based attacks and then homelander has to high diff them in combat and he isn't dodging everything so its clear his reactions don't scale which like is all he potentially could have gotten from the space flight speed feat outside of travel speed.


The entire fight is also broadcast live with regular film camera's and they aren't just imperceptable blurs meanwhile A-Train needed high speed camera's just to be watched it vought tower. Also the 3 MHS things from this season alone does not outweight several dozen anti-feats, statenents, or feats that placed them way lower and are more numerously consistent then a few 1 off high end feats that do contradicts basically every previous showing in the series

Homelander doesn't have "several dozen anti-feats", he has one, interacting with characters who have these kind of anti-feats. This contradicts the entire series, the narrative, his superiority, the stated speed he moves at, the fact he COULD tag A-Trait trying to run for his life despite A-Train being faster than a camera.

ALSO, we literally don't know if the audience was able to perceive the fast movements or not, just the existence of a camera is not evidence that his movements were tracked accurately. They could, very well, have been seeing blurs with some faint moments of clarity.
 
homelander didn't even get to fully take off
Homelander consistently accelerates almost instantly, this is just the finale having no regards for proper scaling. It's really mind boggling to downscale a character who has feats above Subsonic consistently because of one outlier in the other direction writen for the sake of the narrative.
 
Homelander consistently accelerates almost instantly, this is just the finale having no regards for proper scaling. It's really mind boggling to downscale a character who has feats above Subsonic consistently because of one outlier in the other direction writen for the sake of the narrative.

Apparently one fight with an outlier that contradicts the entire series is enough to claim Homelander is subsonic. But when I make a thread about other verses having two FTL feats and several sound-relative anti-feats, the "inconsistencies don't matter", and "FTL is consistent enough". I should genuinely just stop powerscaling here.
 
Why would he lie about his speed and how far he went? He could just have said he had it, it would have the same effect
Because he was trying to hype himself up to look good in front of the others,like when he was pretending that the other VCU cinematic verse is just as good as the original.He was trying to appeal to them.

Plus MrM lost to Atrain who was Mach1.3.
 
Apparently one fight with an outlier that contradicts the entire series is enough to claim Homelander is subsonic. But when I make a thread about other verses having two FTL feats and several sound-relative anti-feats, the "inconsistencies don't matter", and "FTL is consistent enough". I should genuinely just stop powerscaling here.
I feel like your Deltarune related CRTs are protruding there
 
Homelander doesn't have "several dozen anti-feats", he has one, interacting with characters who have these kind of anti-feats. This contradicts the entire series, the narrative, his superiority, the stated speed he moves at, the fact he COULD tag A-Trait trying to run for his life despite A-Train being faster than a camera.
This isn't Homelander's only fight you know? He has several and each he's comparable dudes who are hard capped at being subsonic tops in combat and reactions, he's quite visible to several people while fighting in Herogasm and when he fought Soldier Boy and Butcher in S3 with that I believe also showing camera footage. Even these aren't the only instances dude has several anti-feats to this higher level of scaling

his superiority, the stated speed he moves at
Stated flight speeds not combat and reactions
the fact he COULD tag A-Trait trying to run for his life despite A-Train being faster than a camera.
The same A-Train who consistently at his peak is Transonic~Supersonic, if Homelander actually scaled to MHS himself in combat and reactions he'd just blitz him in a short burst but that's clearly not an option and you forget he is literally statue blitzed right before he is able to chase A-Train due to having comparable flight speeds and you don't need to scale 1:1 with flight speed to perceive a moving object thats moving relatively in a straight line
 
Apparently one fight with an outlier that contradicts the entire series is enough to claim Homelander is subsonic. But when I make a thread about other verses having two FTL feats and several sound-relative anti-feats, the "inconsistencies don't matter", and "FTL is consistent enough". I should genuinely just stop powerscaling here.
I mean for the Deltarune thread you closed it before the mods revoted, so who knows if it would've went that way or not.

The issue is more that Homelander has no demonstrated showings of fighting at Mach 200. He doesn't have an A-Train super speed scene, he doesn't have DCEU-esq super speed scenes, and he doesn't even have CW-esq super speed scenes.
 
Because he was trying to hype himself up to look good in front of the others,like when he was pretending that the other VCU cinematic verse is just as good as the original.He was trying to appeal to them.

Plus MrM lost to Atrain who was Mach1.3.
A-Train is not Mach 1, this is a CW Flash situation
 
I agree about the complaint that Vought is at least as evil as Homelander and remains an enormous threat that should be taken care of, but I think that dealing with it is reserved for future shows set in The Boys universe, due to being mandated by Amazon wanting to squeese as much story content as possible out of the property for long term viewing purposes.

And I also agree about that the more powerful and competent Gen V characters should have logically helped in the fight against Homelander, but it was likely cut due to the showrunners being required to fit everything into just 8 episodes, or because they were initially planned to all survive for their own spinoff show, and because it wouldn't have fit thematically for a coherent The Boys show narrative if one of them had saved the day by exploding the blood in Homelander's brain, for example. 🙏
 
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