The 1-A Madness Combat Revision.

[Mythic381]

Krinkels was actually asked about them actually viewing Nevada as an dream and he outright said these claims for the employees viewing it as such was by actual unreliable sources(i can go get the scan if ur curious)

I'd like the scan very much if you don't mind.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

I'd like the scan very much if you don't mind

here it is mobile is lowkey tweaking out for me

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Honestly I can only see the machine and maker being 1-A as its extremely blatant that the employees and other characters are only in the low complex multiversal(employees) to low multiversal( director phobias and the slfs) and like city block level(about everyone else) from what i am aware of also you can see find and use the curiouscat statements as people have recorded videos on most of them on youtube and they don't condict anything but rather answer and give context on things.

 

[Comiphorous]

While WOG seems like a complicated thing for this wiki to pass on, Krinkles is one of the few authors who (at least in my opinion) consistently gives answers that are related to the work itself and doesn't necessarily contradict it.
but i will let you assume whatever you want to assume

Didn't we have an issue in the past in the general discussion where he said one thing and the series said another? Even he himself has admitted that he contradicts himself sometimes. He is one of the authors where you might want to double check him just in case he accidentally said something that contradicts his series. Don't know where you got that idea from. I ain't pretending that shit didn't happen.

Honestly I can only see the machine and maker being 1-A as its extremely blatant that the employees and other characters are only in the low complex multiversal(employees) to low multiversal( director phobias and the slfs) and like city block level(about everyone else) from what i am aware of also you can see find and use the curiouscat statements as people have recorded videos on most of them on youtube and they don't condict anything but rather answer and give context on things.

We can't use statements that don't exist anymore since they were deleted. the whole Trevor Henderson verse got deleted because of that. If they don't exist anymore, tough luck.

Also, no, Phobos scales to Low Complex Multiversal. Not sure where you got that idea from. He just scales to the other place. The Employers are larger than the other place.

 

[Employe]

Phobos and Employers pretty blatantly scale to each other. Hell, if anything I will argue that Phobos is even superior to them

 

[Comiphorous]

Phobos and Employers pretty blatantly scale to each other. Hell, if anything I will argue that Phobos is even superior to them

Nothing indicates Phobos would be superior to the employers in game. Only thing we have going for that is another WoG statement.

 

[Employe]

Dissonant

 

[Comiphorous]

Dissonant

Using Dissonance on an employer (their weakness) doesn't make Phobos physically superior to them after he merged with The Other Place. That just means he has access to one of their weaknesses.

 

[Employe]

Yeah, he has access to their weakness, so he is still superior to them, just not physically

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah, he access to their weakness, so he is still superior to them, just not physically

We're talking about the cosmology of the series. The part about their tier is the thing we're focused on

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Phobos and Employers pretty blatantly scale to each other. Hell, if anything I will argue that Phobos is even superior to them

Its was stated by gow that he would still have been unable to become an employee and would be weaker then them

 

[Employe]

Anyway. My point that Employers and Director should be comparable in tier, since it is what many times described in the game

Even Krinkels stated something like this, iirc

 

[Employe]

Its was stated by gow that he would still have been unable to become an employee and would be weaker then them

No? Krinkels said that he would be not exactly like Employers, but more just similar to/like them

 

[Comiphorous]

Anyway. My point that Employers and Director should be comparable in tier, since it is what many times described in the game

Even Krinkels stated something like this, iirc

He's also said they aren't. Again, WoG be damned. He's said both. depends how far back you go.

 

[Employe]

He's also said they aren't. Again, WoG be damned. He's said both. depends how far back you go.

Wait, what?

 

[Mythic381]

Can I see?

here it is mobile is lowkey tweaking out for me

....

 

[CitRusReality64]

....

lmao sorry I made a mistake

 

[CitRusReality64]

anyway, my thoughts on this, I think Employers should still stay 5-D, they viewing dream statement could just be used as supporting evidence for Low 1-C, since quantitative r>fs are things that exist

 

[Comiphorous]

anyway, my thoughts on this, I think Employers should still stay 5-D, they viewing dream statement could just be used as supporting evidence for Low 1-C, since quantitative r>fs are things that exist

I'm just putting it in the cosmology blog and just mentioning after the feat that they just might be crazy people saying things and should be taken with a small grain of salt.

 

[Mythic381]

, since quantitative r>fs are things that exist

I don't recall this site having that, the exception being something like gravity falls, but that's because it's treated like that in the verse itself.

 

[CitRusReality64]

I don't recall this site having that, the exception being something like gravity falls, but that's because it's treated like that in the verse itself.

MCU have a quantitative R>F iirc. It's on the R>F page here if it has disqualifiers for 1-A, but a verse still shows some sort of superiority that it will be debated on what rating it can receive

 

[Mythic381]

MCU have a quantitative R>F iirc. It's on the R>F page here if it has disqualifiers for 1-A, but a verse still shows some sort of superiority that it will be debated on what rating it can receive

I'm pretty sure those accepted examples of quantitative R>F only happen in the cases of:

• It being something that exists in the verse itself, like the accepted Gravity Falls.
• There being a proven transcendence regardless of the R>F in question.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

This was a long time coming, wasn't it? About time I actually got this guy a profile. The big 1-A MAN (not so man) HIM(them)SELF! THE MAKERRRRR

themaker

vsbattles.fandom.com

There is no cosmology blog to go along with him, as frankly he does not need one. All of his scaling fits in his AP section. Everything has links to what someone will need and is at least somewhat straight forward as a Outerversal character gets.

Explaination​

This is explained on his profile, but i'll explain it here too. It's a bit better explained on the actual profile than here, but I THINK everything below should be enough for Reality-Fiction Transcendence.

The Maker is considered an all-powerful creator of Madness Combat (to an unknown extent)


The Maker exists above The Machine and is not apart of it at all, meaning he transends even time and space, fate, and the plot of Madness Combat and sees it as fiction and several times even refers to it as a story which he writes, and the Gambler even refers to aspects of madness combat as dreams to him.




Madness Combat itself has already been accepted to having Low 1-C 5 dimensional realms such as The Other Place and Nevada, which are directly stated to being neverending and infinitely more complex than a normal mind can comprehend. (which he transends and sees as a story)

https://youtu.be/oPT-7gPmY4g?t=710

This seems simple enough.

 

[CitRusReality64]

This was a long time coming, wasn't it? About time I actually got this guy a profile. The big 1-A MAN (not so man) HIM(them)SELF! THE MAKERRRRR

themaker

vsbattles.fandom.com

There is no cosmology blog to go along with him, as frankly he does not need one. All of his scaling fits in his AP section. Everything has links to what someone will need and is at least somewhat straight forward as a Outerversal character gets.

Explaination​

This is explained on his profile, but i'll explain it here too. It's a bit better explained on the actual profile than here, but I THINK everything below should be enough for Reality-Fiction Transcendence.

The Maker is considered an all-powerful creator of Madness Combat (to an unknown extent)


The Maker exists above The Machine and is not apart of it at all, meaning he transends even time and space, fate, and the plot of Madness Combat and sees it as fiction and several times even refers to it as a story which he writes, and the Gambler even refers to aspects of madness combat as dreams to him.




Madness Combat itself has already been accepted to having Low 1-C 5 dimensional realms such as The Other Place and Nevada, which are directly stated to being neverending and infinitely more complex than a normal mind can comprehend. (which he transends and sees as a story)

https://youtu.be/oPT-7gPmY4g?t=710

Add BDE Type 3 to the profile

 

[CitRusReality64]

Bump

 

[CitRusReality64]

Bump

 

[CitRusReality64]

Bump

 

[Mythic381]

Wouldn't you need to actually address and get the 1-C removed first so 1-A can actually be accepted?

 

[Comiphorous]

Wouldn't you need to actually address and get the 1-C removed first so 1-A can actually be accepted?

what.

regardless, almost done with this.

 

[Mythic381]

what.

From what I understood from this discussion, the anti-feats for 1-A stem from The Machine and the Auditor, which from what I understood a while ago, the Auditor did affect the machine, with the Auditor being accepted as Low 1-C for being 5-dimensional.

My point is that I think you need to address and get the 5-dimensional key removed for 1-A to be accepted, since the argument here is for the Maker, and the Maker has anti-feats that chain back to someone who is 1-C.

 

[Comiphorous]

From what I understood from this discussion, the anti-feats for 1-A stem from The Machine and the Auditor, which from what I understood a while ago, the Auditor did affect the machine, with the Auditor being accepted as Low 1-C for being 5-dimensional.

The Auditor and The Machine aren't anti feats. The Employers are stewards to it and do The Machine's bidding. If The Auditor is doing that, it's because The Machine wants him to.

 

[Mythic381]

The Auditor and The Machine aren't anti feats. The Employers are stewards to it and do The Machine's bidding. If The Auditor is doing that, it's because The Machine wants him to.

How exactly? Doesn't the Auditor affect the machine? And in turn, the machine affects the Maker?

 

[Comiphorous]

How exactly? Doesn't the Auditor affect the machine? And in turn, the machine affects the Maker?

The Auditor affects The Machine because The Machine wants it to, and nothing else. That's their purpose. They are stewards and creations of The Machine that help The Machine.

The Machine can affect The Maker because The Machine is an actual comparable threat to The Maker.

These are completely separate feats.

 

[Mythic381]

The Auditor affects The Machine because The Machine wants it to, and nothing else. That's their purpose. They are stewards and creations of The Machine that help The Machine.

That's still a 1-A anti-feat unless there's something proving he's give power to ascend to a 1-A plane of existence or given an innate 1-A metaphysical aspect of some sort.

The Machine can affect The Maker because The Machine is an actual comparable threat to The Maker.

You said this before:

The Maker talks about how they are completely immune to The Machine UNLESS he purposefully goes down into a plane of existence (Such as going into Nevada/Madness Combat universe) where The Machine can actually see him. Outside of that specific scenario, The Machine cannot affect The Maker.

Which as we know is still an anti-feat:

Thats still a anti feat for the maker. He is not supposed to be affected by the machine in any sense. Heck he is not even supposed to be able to visit the lower plane of existence without breaking it.

Since the Auditor can exist in Nevada, can affect the Machine (who I heard is also located in Nevada despite me not having much knowledge of his verse) and The Maker can be affected by The Machine and can go down to Nevada. I don't see how 1-A holds up.

These are completely separate feats.

I know, but that's not much of something that goes against the argument.

 

[Comiphorous]

That's still a 1-A anti-feat unless there's something proving he's give power to ascend to a 1-A plane of existence or given an innate 1-A metaphysical aspect of some sort.

Alright lets look at like this. We don't even know if that's how The Auditor got the prime code. we just know he gave it to Phobos. The Auditor is an Employer and is already known to be controlled and is a steward to The Machine. Anything The Auditor does is because of The Machine's will. It's not an anti-feat to be listening to the 1-A making the said 'anti-feat'. What you're suggesting is stupid as hell.

Either The Machine gave The Auditor it or it was the other way around, either way it's not an anti-feat because it'd explicitly be because The Machine would be the catalyst of the interaction. The Machine telling it's stewards what to do isn't an anti-feat, that's an absurd claim.

You said this before:

Which isn't an anti-feat because The Maker and The Machine are comparable. They're both 1-A and scale to each other. The Maker stays in The Nowhere, a place that exists outside of The Machine's system so he isn't immediately pulled into The Machine because it's a threat to them. Being comparable to someone isn't an anti-feat.

That meeting i spoke about earlier in the thread is my mistake, i was wrong, he does not go into Nevada to do that. The Player explicitly goes to The Maker for that meeting. The Maker never appears as it's true self in Nevada once.

Since the Auditor can exist in Nevada, can affect the Machine (who I heard is also located in Nevada despite me not having much knowledge of his verse) and The Maker can be affected by The Machine and can go down to Nevada. I don't see how 1-A holds up.

The Auditor explicitly functions using avatars, so no. The Machine doesn't exist in Nevada, Nevada is an infinitely small bit of The Machine. You're entire argument is based off assumptions. 1-A works when you aren't assuming things happen in the series that just don't happen.

 

[CitRusReality64]

That's still a 1-A anti-feat unless there's something proving he's give power to ascend to a 1-A plane of existence or given an innate 1-A metaphysical aspect of some sort.

We actually don't know how The Auditor was able to get the Machine's prime code. But we could infer that The Machine gave The Auditor the prime code, since that's their job

Since the Auditor can exist in Nevada, can affect the Machine (who I heard is also located in Nevada despite me not having much knowledge of his verse) and The Maker can be affected by The Machine and can go down to Nevada. I don't see how 1-A holds up.

WOG basically compares The Machine to a pantheistic deity which can still be 1-A

 

[Mythic381]

Alright lets look at like this. We don't even know if that's how The Auditor got the prime code. we just know he gave it to Phobos. The Auditor is an Employer and is already known to be controlled and is a steward to The Machine. Anything The Auditor does is because of The Machine's will. It's not an anti-feat to be appealing to the 1-A that's controlling and created you. What you're suggesting is stupid as hell.

We actually don't know how The Auditor was able to get the Machine's prime code. But we could infer that The Machine gave The Auditor the prime code, since that's their job

Not knowing how it happened isn't much in your favor, as those are pretty much the only accepted ways here to bypass unreachable levels.

I'm not "suggesting" something, I'm going by the site's standards. A 1-A character is completely irreducible to something it qualitative transcends. Something affecting a 1-A being without a suggestion of empowerment isn't sufficing.

Which isn't an anti-feat because The Maker and The Machine are comparable. They're both 1-A. The Maker stays in The Nowhere, a place that exists outside of The Machine's system so he isn't immediately pulled into The Machine. Being comparable to someone isn't an anti-feat.

It is an anti-feat if you read the original point of my argument. Non-1-A being affects 1-A being which affects another 1-A being.

The Auditor explicitly functions using avatars, so no. The Machine doesn't exist in Nevada, Nevada is an infinitely small bit of The Machine. You're entire argument is based off assumptions. 1-A works when you aren't assuming things happen in the series that just don't.

Well, like I said, I mentioned I'm not knowledgeable and argued based on what was mentioned in earlier discussions and quick researches. But I don't really see much going against what I'm arguing, especially when again, they're stated to be 5-dimensional, which you need to get removed first. This doesn't address The Maker going down to Nevada by the way, unless you have a mention of avatars.

WOG basically compares The Machine to a pantheistic deity which can still be 1-A

"Can" isn't sufficient.

 

[Comiphorous]

I'm not "suggesting" something, I'm going by the site's standards. A 1-A character is completely irreducible to something it qualitative transcends. Something affecting a 1-A being without a suggestion of empowerment isn't sufficing.

The sites standards don't go against what the auditor did or didn't do. A 1-A willingly giving a part of itself away to something it controls is not an anti-feat, especially when the lower dimensional being is SPECIFICALLY created to manage the 1-A by that 1-A.

and on the other side, a Non-1-A being allowed by a 1-A to do it's job that the 1-A created it to do isn't an anti-feat either. both interpretations don't make it an anti-feat because the 1-A is the one who's making it happen because The Auditor is appealing to a 1-A to do that.

This doesn't address The Maker going down to Nevada by the way, unless you have a mention of avatars.

I went over this. they never do. I was wrong. The Maker doesn't go to Nevada, they specifically meet with the player in their own dimension they bring the player to so they can speak to them safely, I don't know why i said they go down to Nevada earlier in the thread, considering the final mission of arena mode is literally all about getting to said dimension to talk to The Maker. Every other time it's not The Maker, it's either an avatar or some sort of creation of The Maker's in place of them (such as The Gambler or Mr. M) That part has made this confusing so i'm sorry about that.

 

[Comiphorous]

Madness Combat Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ooooh boy!!!

 

[Comiphorous]

bump. updated op with cosmology blog.