Test Match 2: Evolution VS Innovation

[Phoenks]

Gotcha.

So would it be a one-shot?

Higher beings set up universal stages of transcendence, so if you're at a high enough stage, their memory passive doesn't work on you.

I see. Though that just seems to be a resistance to having his memories altered rather than a resistance to someone attacking his memories as though they are an object that can be destroyed.

Well, it has Resistance Negation, but it only works on contact. So MEGA might be able to dodge it or avoid it from hitting somewhere vital, but whatever it does hit is totally disintegrated.

Resistance negation? What resistance are they negating?

Anyway it would come down to skill in that case.

If that doesn't work, he has some more basic stuff, Info Type 2, Concept Type 3, RW & Subjective Reality. His abilities operate in a Nonduality State, so they are unchanging and operate in a contradictory, yet unified state.

All of that is probably countered? MEGA has like supra-quality information resistance scaling to the narrative stuff I mentioned before. MEGA's NPI and Willpower in general can interact with Nonduality (Though on the page it currently includes some weird dualities that aren't considered dualities anymore. But the important part is that he can interact with demons, which do legitimately have type 3 transduality). So the RW and Subjective Reality are mitigated by his ability to do the same thing.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So would it be a one-shot?

Yeah, though you need to update that, since BDE Type 3 is the new thing.

I see. Though that just seems to be a resistance to having his memories altered rather than a resistance to someone attacking his memories as though they are an object that can be destroyed.

Well, if MEGA is going to try literally attacking Su Zhou's memories, then Su Zhou is going to defend himself.

Resistance negation? What resistance are they negating?

Honestly, it's really confusing. The idea is that since it's a part of your existence, it doesn't register as an attack, and therefore doesn't count as something you can defend or resist against. It's like trying to defend against the very fact that you can stand there and just exist and breathe.

Anyway it would come down to skill in that case.

Yeah, probably.

All of that is probably countered? MEGA has like supra-quality information resistance scaling to the narrative stuff I mentioned before. MEGA's NPI and Willpower in general can interact with Nonduality (Though on the page it currently includes some weird dualities that aren't considered dualities anymore. But the important part is that he can interact with demons, which do legitimately have type 3 transduality). So the RW and Subjective Reality are mitigated by his ability to do the same thing.

Hmm, alright then, he'll have to rely on his super smurfed abilities, Meta-Meta-Supra.

So, first up, he has his Bow. It has two major abilities. The first is an Illusion that makes you fight opponents who have all your abilities, but surpass you in raw strength and mastery in those abilities. That could create an opening for Su Zhou to kill him, though you can leave the illusion by beating your opponent, so it depends on how fast MEGA can do it.

The second ability is a weird Chaos Arrow. Two arrows are fired simultaneously, one physical and one spiritual, yet they exist as a single unified entity.

If the opponent blocks the physical arrow, the narrative reverses, and the action is rewritten as if they had blocked the spiritual one instead, allowing the physical arrow to strike. Conversely, if they block the spiritual arrow, the same reversal occurs in the opposite direction, letting the other arrow hit.

It's a weird gurnatee hit, since you can't see the other arrow you didn't block.

 

[Phoenks]

Honestly, it's really confusing. The idea is that since it's a part of your existence, it doesn't register as an attack, and therefore doesn't count as something you can defend or resist against. It's like trying to defend against the very fact that you can stand there and just exist and breathe.

But as I said, MEGA has literally already been through such a thing before and managed to overcome it. Even down to it being something that negates your resistance through technically being a part of you. You can even see, on the Azariah page I sent, her virus thing includes resistance negation on the same principle.

Yeah, probably.

In terms of skilled I can just summarize:

For analytical prediction, MEGA's capabilities far outstretch Myrme. With Myrme herself being so skilled that she can quite literally have fights against time travelers, predicting and countering attacks that travel across time rather than distance. And then on top of that being able to predict multiple of those attacks in succession. Then there is her being able to predict and track millions of trajectories simultaneously, even while barely awake. MEGA could fight an infinite amount of clones of her simultaneously, by himself. Her clones being embodiments of every alternative possibility she could make in a fight, which even further exponentiated since every branching route resulted in another infinity of alternative routes. So it's actually even more impressive than that. And then consider that these clones could appear out of thin air, arriving from different points in space and time.

Even while at a statistical disadvantage, MEGA can fight against people who have blitz worthy advantages against him by just catching glimpses of their after images, which alone allows him to predict them to the point of matching their level of speed with his premonitions. Even at a skill disadvantage, he can quickly evolve to skill stomp opponents who were skill stomping him in just moments.

His adaptability is ridiculous. Capable of going up against characters with insane levels of exponential skill growth and exceeding them. Even if his skills are copied he just beats out the copy by evolving beyond it. He literally also went up against s character who had a sword that just gives her everything she needs to best the opponent, including giving her like infinite knowledge and skill, and he still beat that sword.

So, first up, he has his Bow. It has two major abilities. The first is an Illusion that makes you fight opponents who have all your abilities, but surpass you in raw strength and mastery in those abilities. That could create an opening for Su Zhou to kill him, though you can leave the illusion by beating your opponent, so it depends on how fast MEGA can do it.

Even with meta-meta-supra I don't think that is actually enough to mimic The will to ascend so MEGA would just beat his clones.

The second ability is a weird Chaos Arrow. Two arrows are fired simultaneously, one physical and one spiritual, yet they exist as a single unified entity.

If the opponent blocks the physical arrow, the narrative reverses, and the action is rewritten as if they had blocked the spiritual one instead, allowing the physical arrow to strike. Conversely, if they block the spiritual arrow, the same reversal occurs in the opposite direction, letting the other arrow hit.

It's a weird gurnatee hit, since you can't see the other arrow you didn't block.

What do the arrows do if they hit, and can the be dodged?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

But as I said, MEGA has literally already been through such a thing before and managed to overcome it. Even down to it being something that negates your resistance through technically being a part of you. You can even see, on the Azariah page I sent, her virus thing includes resistance negation on the same principle.

Not if his only solution is to try and overpower it, since, as I said, it's super smurfed.

For analytical prediction, MEGA's capabilities far outstretch Myrme. With Myrme herself being so skilled that she can quite literally have fights against time travelers, predicting and countering attacks that travel across time rather than distance. And then on top of that being able to predict multiple of those attacks in succession. Then there is her being able to predict and track millions of trajectories simultaneously, even while barely awake. MEGA could fight an infinite amount of clones of her simultaneously, by himself. Her clones being embodiments of every alternative possibility she could make in a fight, which even further exponentiated since every branching route resulted in another infinity of alternative routes. So it's actually even more impressive than that. And then consider that these clones could appear out of thin air, arriving from different points in space and time.

Well, Analytic Predictions aren't much help against Su Zhou. Nothing about him can be prophesied, predicted, or even deduced from gathering his information. Any attempts to make judgments about him or set a definition will just outright fail, even if done through Conceptual Manipulation.

As for MEGA's skills, Su Zhou should be able to handle it through his senses, since Su Zhou is more than capable of tracking things beyond the constraints of time and space, and the countless possibilities that lie in the most fundamental layers of existence.

Even while at a statistical disadvantage, MEGA can fight against people who have blitz worthy advantages against him by just catching glimpses of their after images, which alone allows him to predict them to the point of matching their level of speed with his premonitions. Even at a skill disadvantage, he can quickly evolve to skill stomp opponents who were skill stomping him in just moments.

Same with Su Zhou through his RE. He can learn the strengths of any living being. Whether it's an attack he couldn't defend against before, or a need for near-instantaneous learning, he can just absorb experience and techniques from his opponent, and cross skill gaps mid-battle. He can achieve nearly anything and adapt to any situation. With a single weapon, he can break through any and all techniques or create every technique in the verse for that weapon. He knows every method of battle in the world, including tactics.

He doesn't make mistakes, ever, regarding combat, and even all the combined wisdom of all living beings and civilizations in an entire world wouldn't match his processing capabilities.

His adaptability is ridiculous. Capable of going up against characters with insane levels of exponential skill growth and exceeding them. Even if his skills are copied he just beats out the copy by evolving beyond it. He literally also went up against s character who had a sword that just gives her everything she needs to best the opponent, including giving her like infinite knowledge and skill, and he still beat that sword.

Su Zhou's skills have long since surpassed any degree of conventional combat expertise; thousands or millions of years, there's no difference, his foundation is just flawless. His combat abilities have surpassed the need for things such as skill, luck, or intellect, and he could fight with or without them the same way. If he wanted, he could invoke reality to see through any abilities used against him, or simulate an entire reality of the battle in his mind, even without his senses, physical or spiritual.

Even with meta-meta-supra I don't think that is actually enough to mimic The will to ascend so MEGA would just beat his clones.

I don't know what that is.

What do the arrows do if they hit, and can the be dodged?

It'll sweep him into a chaotic space-time where every form of balance is broken on an equally smurfed scale. As for dodging, not really. It ignores matter, energy, time, space, definitions, standards, and distance, and is capable of crossing infinitely expanded distances.


Anyway, I'ma head to sleep, we can continue in the morning.

 

[Phoenks]

Well, Analytic Predictions aren't much help against Su Zhou. Nothing about him can be prophesied, predicted, or even deduced from gathering his information. Any attempts to make judgments about him or set a definition will just outright fail, even if done through Conceptual Manipulation.

This is unfortunately a no limits fallacy, as resistances to analytical prediction have to be against the same level of analytical prediction that I am proposing for MEGA for it to be viable. MEGA has similarly fought against and nonetheless predicted people with similar statements, such as Myrme herself whose techniques could not be predicted nor mimicked by supremely intelligent artificial intelligence.

As for MEGA's skills, Su Zhou should be able to handle it through his senses, since Su Zhou is more than capable of tracking things beyond the constraints of time and space, and the countless possibilities that lie in the most fundamental layers of existence.

MEGA is capable of doing the same thing, and has fought against his girlfriend Paraco, who possesses senses that can allow her to view things that are very high up in the cosmology. Like High 1-A and beyond. Her senses are also incredibly precise. As I mentioned before she's able to take in information around herself at a level to where she can "sense" the history of a water molecule. Or hear the footsteps of people who had walked upon the same ground she is standing on years ago. Space and time are practically nothing for her either. Even more fodder beings in Ark can see through the kaleidoscope of space and time in order to sense physical locations.

MEGA has fought Paraco multiple times and has even managed to predict her despite her having probably both the best senses in the verse so far and being the most unpredictable character in the verse so far.

Same with Su Zhou through his RE. He can learn the strengths of any living being. Whether it's an attack he couldn't defend against before, or a need for near-instantaneous learning, he can just absorb experience and techniques from his opponent, and cross skill gaps mid-battle. He can achieve nearly anything and adapt to any situation. With a single weapon, he can break through any and all techniques or create every technique in the verse for that weapon. He knows every method of battle in the world, including tactics.

He doesn't make mistakes, ever, regarding combat, and even all the combined wisdom of all living beings and civilizations in an entire world wouldn't match his processing capabilities.

Well, to go up against MEGA in processing he would need to literally have infinite processing capabilities. In fact, probably even more than infinite. And seeing that he only has extraordinary genius intelligence, that would mean MEGA does in fact just obliterate him in that category.

Mega also doesn't make mistakes. His fighting style is so perfect that it's impossible for an imperfect mind to even perceive it. And he will not make mistakes even if there's a chance that he could get an advantage through it. So long as something decreases his chance of failure he will avoid it. There is never a chance in a fight that he will allow the probability of victory to drop beneath 100%. And even if it does, he'll adapt to make it not so, or literally just say "no" in the face of something impossible to overcome.

Absorbing or copying MEGA's experiences is pretty much useless. People have tried that on him before and they were cooked all the same. A character once copied everything about him and he still one-shot them a second later. Even if you managed to give yourself infinite combat skill (which a character tried), you would still lose.


Even if your attacks are off by individual decimal points in a string of numbers, akin to getting one digit of pi wrong, you would lose an encounter against him.

MEGA even in his previous keys had already surpassed the combined intelligence of mankind. Every time he performs a technique it progresses the universe's understanding of martial arts. The universe has to update itself in order to encompass the art forms he pulls off at a whim. Like it is to the point that he changes what it means to "punch" whenever he punches.

I don't know what that is.

MEGA's core ability. The whole basis of his evolutionary traits. It exists separately from his Reincarnate Soul and is what empowers him. It is also more fundamental. Without it, clones of him wouldn't last long at all.

As a general question, just how good is Su Zhou's RE? Would he be able to keep up with an opponent who can jump to become orders of magnitude stronger and faster than him? And whose rate of growth itself is also exponentially increasing?

Probably also a good time to mention that MEGA has immeasurable reaction / perception speed while Su Zhou would still be locked to Speed of Light. That difference is pretty absurd. Would allow MEGA to react to things that he hasn't even done yet.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

It is quite fun to see this match, but unfortunately ARK doesn't really have a High 1-A profile cause YTSY haxs peak at High 1-A, can be even more fun lol.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is unfortunately a no limits fallacy, as resistances to analytical prediction have to be against the same level of analytical prediction that I am proposing for MEGA for it to be viable. MEGA has similarly fought against and nonetheless predicted people with similar statements, such as Myrme herself whose techniques could not be predicted nor mimicked by supremely intelligent artificial intelligence.

Even a user of [Balance], who can calculate and measure every aspect of a person, their possibilities, impossibilities, and define all and any phenomenon within the myriad of the Multiverse, couldn't define or judge Su Zhou's existence.

On top of that, since Su Zhou obtains [Eternity] in the future, his past is automatically affected by it, so any attempts to defeat him by manipulating time, fate, or predicting his future simply won't work.

MEGA is capable of doing the same thing, and has fought against his girlfriend Paraco, who possesses senses that can allow her to view things that are very high up in the cosmology. Like High 1-A and beyond. Her senses are also incredibly precise. As I mentioned before she's able to take in information around herself at a level to where she can "sense" the history of a water molecule. Or hear the footsteps of people who had walked upon the same ground she is standing on years ago. Space and time are practically nothing for her either. Even more fodder beings in Ark can see through the kaleidoscope of space and time in order to sense physical locations.

MEGA has fought Paraco multiple times and has even managed to predict her despite her having probably both the best senses in the verse so far and being the most unpredictable character in the verse so far.

Well, I already mentioned that Su Zhou can predict, predictions infinitely and counter them, regardless of MEGA's Acausality.

Well, to go up against MEGA in processing he would need to literally have infinite processing capabilities. In fact, probably even more than infinite. And seeing that he only has extraordinary genius intelligence, that would mean MEGA does in fact just obliterate him in that category.

His senses can make up for that, since they are more than capable of observing eternity itself across the span of all existence, which is above Supra.

Mega also doesn't make mistakes. His fighting style is so perfect that it's impossible for an imperfect mind to even perceive it. And he will not make mistakes even if there's a chance that he could get an advantage through it. So long as something decreases his chance of failure he will avoid it. There is never a chance in a fight that he will allow the probability of victory to drop beneath 100%. And even if it does, he'll adapt to make it not so, or literally just say "no" in the face of something impossible to overcome.

Su Zhou's fighting style already ignores things like luck, so the probability of victory won't matter.

Absorbing or copying MEGA's experiences is pretty much useless. People have tried that on him before and they were cooked all the same. A character once copied everything about him and he still one-shot them a second later. Even if you managed to give yourself infinite combat skill (which a character tried), you would still lose.

I guess they would just cancel each other out here then.

Even if your attacks are off by individual decimal points in a string of numbers, akin to getting one digit of pi wrong, you would lose an encounter against him.

MEGA even in his previous keys had already surpassed the combined intelligence of mankind. Every time he performs a technique it progresses the universe's understanding of martial arts. The universe has to update itself in order to encompass the art forms he pulls off at a whim. Like it is to the point that he changes what it means to "punch" whenever he punches.

Su Zhou had already been capable of grasping the principles embedded within another person's abilities, even if those abilities were created by etching them into the most fundamental layer of the universe. In fact, at a level below Su Zhou's, every action he took was done through doing that.

MEGA's core ability. The whole basis of his evolutionary traits. It exists separately from his Reincarnate Soul and is what empowers him. It is also more fundamental. Without it, clones of him wouldn't last long at all.

What tier is it?

As a general question, just how good is Su Zhou's RE? Would he be able to keep up with an opponent who can jump to become orders of magnitude stronger and faster than him? And whose rate of growth itself is also exponentially increasing?

[Immutable Matter] is already capable of boosting its users' power at an exponential rate, and Su Zhou's RE managed to copy it.

Probably also a good time to mention that MEGA has immeasurable reaction / perception speed while Su Zhou would still be locked to Speed of Light. That difference is pretty absurd. Would allow MEGA to react to things that he hasn't even done yet.

True, but Su Zhou would just have to hit him with something he can't avoid.


Anyway, right now, I still haven't seen any way MEGA can actually kill or stop Su Zhou, whereas Su Zhou has two potential win methods, [Twilight] or his Chaos Arrow.

 

[Phoenks]

Even a user of [Balance], who can calculate and measure every aspect of a person, their possibilities, impossibilities, and define all and any phenomenon within the myriad of the Multiverse, couldn't define or judge Su Zhou's existence.

On top of that, since Su Zhou obtains [Eternity] in the future, his past is automatically affected by it, so any attempts to defeat him by manipulating time, fate, or predicting his future simply won't work.

You're going to need to explain that last one.

Because predicting the future is not even remotely in the same ballpark as manipulating time or fate. Just being able to change your past does not make it so you are unaffected by predictions. Analytical prediction does nothing to impede on his own existence or change it. It is simply MEGA calculating what he'd do next based on his own observations.

And for the first thing, all things you've mentioned are things MEGA's opponents have been able to do / resist so it still isn't really enough.

Well, I already mentioned that Su Zhou can predict, predictions infinitely and counter them, regardless of MEGA's Acausality.

Nothing you've said so far for him matches up to even 1% of what I've said for MEGA though.

His senses can make up for that, since they are more than capable of observing eternity itself across the span of all existence, which is above Supra.

Observing = / = processing speed or even knowledge.

Going through his intelligence sections, I see nothing there that poses a threat to MEGA tbh with you. MEGA having infinite processing speed on top of being immeasurable in reaction speed would let him see through pretty much anything Su Zhou does and counter it in combat, possibly before the dude even thinks of what he is going to do next.

Su Zhou's fighting style already ignores things like luck, so the probability of victory won't matter.

The "probability of victory" is something internalized by MEGA. It has nothing to do with Su Zhou himself. I am just saying that if MEGA calculates that a certain action makes him more likely to lose, even if it is by a fraction of a percent, he will not make that action.

I guess they would just cancel each other out here then.

I see nothing even remotely close to "infinite skill" type of shenanigans on Su Zhou's page though?

Su Zhou had already been capable of grasping the principles embedded within another person's abilities, even if those abilities were created by etching them into the most fundamental layer of the universe. In fact, at a level below Su Zhou's, every action he took was done through doing that.

I don't see how this relates to what I said. I was speaking about MEGA's precision being so great that even if the arc of your blade swing is off by an infinitesimal value, you would end up losing that encounter with him some way or another.

MEGA has full on Supergenius combat skill and processing. Things like that are a necessity if you want to fight against him.

What tier is it?

Supra-Quality = Narrative < Laws = Reincarnate Souls < The Will to Ascend

Ig like 2 meta-layers above supra would be fair.

[Immutable Matter] is already capable of boosting its users' power at an exponential rate, and Su Zhou's RE managed to copy it.

Yeah that is getting stomped unless it has better scaling than that.

Just "exponential growth" is not enough to keep pace with MEGA as his exponential growth itself grows exponentially.

There was once a dude who willed it into the universe that he would always have the strength to defeat MEGA, and thus would always be above whatever value of power MEGA reached, but MEGA still surpassed him. Even managing to beat an army of people who were under the effects of the same law. If you were to somehow copy or always exceed MEGA's growth, you would still end up being surpassed.

He fought against a character who could adapt to the narrative and still surpassed them.

And even when there was a character who had a weapon which blessed them with anything they could need to win a fight, he still beat that.

True, but Su Zhou would just have to hit him with something he can't avoid.

Good luck doing that before all his aspects get deleted lol.

Anyway, right now, I still haven't seen any way MEGA can actually kill or stop Su Zhou, whereas Su Zhou has two potential win methods, [Twilight] or his Chaos Arrow.

You yourself stated MEGA had a win condition through simply attacking his aspects like physical objects, which is his most in-character and basic moveset.

As for MEGA, he can interact with Su Zhou's fundamental aspects, but Su Zhou is definitely not going to just sit there and let him.

If MEGA can do that, you'd need to prove Su Zhou somehow avoids that. I'm really not convinced.

MEGA seems to have a clear, almost infinite edge in terms of skill. And it is made even worse by MEGA's immeasurable reaction speed.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You're going to need to explain that last one.

Because predicting the future is not even remotely in the same ballpark as manipulating time or fate. Just being able to change your past does not make it so you are unaffected by predictions. Analytical prediction does nothing to impede on his own existence or change it. It is simply MEGA calculating what he'd do next based on his own observations.

And for the first thing, all things you've mentioned are things MEGA's opponents have been able to do / resist so it still isn't really enough.

[Balance] scales higher than anything MEGA has, just like [Reincarnation], [Twilight], and [Perfection].

Even taking measures to stop Su Zhou is part of what [Eternity] counteracts.

Nothing you've said so far for him matches up to even 1% of what I've said for MEGA though.

It doesn't really matter how good his predictions are if he can't do it in an infinitely layered degree.

Observing = / = processing speed or even knowledge.

Going through his intelligence sections, I see nothing there that poses a threat to MEGA tbh with you. MEGA having infinite processing speed on top of being immeasurable in reaction speed would let him see through pretty much anything Su Zhou does and counter it in combat, possibly before the dude even thinks of what he is going to do next.

Immeasurable Reaction Speed and Perception Speed aren't good for anything but letting him prepare for what's coming or try to stop it.

The "probability of victory" is something internalized by MEGA. It has nothing to do with Su Zhou himself. I am just saying that if MEGA calculates that a certain action makes him more likely to lose, even if it is by a fraction of a percent, he will not make that action.

I mean, that's cool, but it doesn't really seem like a factor. If neither of them makes mistakes, then it doesn't change anything.

I see nothing even remotely close to "infinite skill" type of shenanigans on Su Zhou's page though?

MEGA can't one-shot Su Zhou; so at most the skill gap would just keep Su Zhou on the defense, and at most he would just use predictions to overcome it.

I don't see how this relates to what I said. I was speaking about MEGA's precision being so great that even if the arc of your blade swing is off by an infinitesimal value, you would end up losing that encounter with him some way or another.

MEGA has full on Supergenius combat skill and processing. Things like that are a necessity if you want to fight against him.

We've already discussed that Su Zhou can launch [Perfect Strikes]; he's not going to be off by an infinitesimal value. MEGA's Supergenius stuff isn't capable of overcoming Su Zhou's abilities.

Supra-Quality = Narrative < Laws = Reincarnate Souls < The Will to Ascend

Ig like 2 meta-layers above supra would be fair.

Then yeah, his bow can copy it.

Yeah that is getting stomped unless it has better scaling than that.

Fair enough.

Good luck doing that before all his aspects get deleted lol.

MEGA isn't hitting any of Su Zhou's aspects.

You yourself stated MEGA had a win condition through simply attacking his aspects like physical objects, which is his most in-character and basic moveset.

If MEGA can do that, you'd need to prove Su Zhou somehow avoids that. I'm really not convinced.

So he throws a punch at them? Then it just gets blocked by [Immutable Matter], I told you that before; you never responded.

 

[Phoenks]

[Balance] scales higher than anything MEGA has, just like [Reincarnation], [Twilight], and [Perfection].

Even taking measures to stop Su Zhou is part of what [Eternity] counteracts.

Are you saying this is a stomp then? Because certainly beating or killing Su Zhou is more of a "measure to stop" him than predicting him is lmao.

It doesn't really matter how good his predictions are if he can't do it in an infinitely layered degree.

???

Immeasurable Reaction Speed and Perception Speed aren't good for anything but letting him prepare for what's coming or try to stop it.

Uh, yeah. Which is like, one of the main factors in close quarters combat lol. Reactions matter almost as much as combat speed does.

I mean, that's cool, but it doesn't really seem like a factor. If neither of them makes mistakes, then it doesn't change anything.

Any proof that Su Zhou doesn't make mistakes on an infinitesimal level though?

MEGA can't one-shot Su Zhou; so at most the skill gap would just keep Su Zhou on the defense, and at most he would just use predictions to overcome it.

Which predictions? The one which scales super high is the one that doesn't actually tell him all that much about the future from what I can see.

We've already discussed that Su Zhou can launch [Perfect Strikes]; he's not going to be off by an infinitesimal value. MEGA's Supergenius stuff isn't capable of overcoming Su Zhou's abilities.

It would be the other way around. He has nothing which can compete with supergenius combat skill and processing speeds.

Then yeah, his bow can copy it.

Btw the power itself says:

"but surpass them in raw power and mastery. This compels the target to tap into their latent potential in order to survive"

Is this not just a massive weakness for the ability if it doesn't also copy the "latent potential?" And considering MEGA's whole concept is "latent potential," would this not just be the most useless ability to use against him?

Fair enough.

Well now you're dealing with being stat-cliffed on top of outskilled.

MEGA isn't hitting any of Su Zhou's aspects.

Why?

So he throws a punch at them? Then it just gets blocked by [Immutable Matter], I told you that before; you never responded.

Which one was that?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Are you saying this is a stomp then? Because certainly beating or killing Su Zhou is more of a "measure to stop" him than predicting him is lmao.

Users of [Eternity] can face setbacks, but there's no permanent way to stop them. This match was never going to end with MEGA 'permanently killing' or sealing Su Zhou.

MEGA needs a method of temporary victory.

???

You told me that MEGA is capable of predicting his girlfriend, despite her senses and abilities to take in information.

You also told me Precog wouldn't work on him because he's outside of the Narrative, Fate, etc. I told you the [Fate] Su Zhou looks at accounts for things like that, and scales higher than MEGA. I also told you, Su Zhou can predict, predictions, in an infinite recursive loop.

I also told you he can see the [Reincarnation] (Causality) of MEGA. There is no situation here where Su Zhou gets predicted by MEGA or caught off guard.

Uh, yeah. Which is like, one of the main factors in close quarters combat lol. Reactions matter almost as much as combat speed does.

Su Zhou isn't going to fist-fight MEGA once he realizes he's outclassed. He's going to fall back onto his abilities, multiple of which MEGA can't avoid or do anything about, even if he knows they're coming.

Any proof that Su Zhou doesn't make mistakes on an infinitesimal level though?

Yes, it's directly stated that even below his level, they simply don't make mistakes in combat. Stuff like being 'unable to react,' 'unable to foresee,' 'never imagined,' or 'did not notice,' has no chance of occurring.

It would be the other way around. He has nothing which can compete with supergenius combat skill and processing speeds.

I've mentioned three abilities that would, [Twilight], his Chaos Arrow, and his Illusion.

Btw the power itself says:

Is this not just a massive weakness for the ability if it doesn't also copy the "latent potential?" And considering MEGA's whole concept is "latent potential," would this not just be the most useless ability to use against him?

It doesn't say it doesn't copy latent potential; it says it causes the ones caught in it to unlock theirs. Which is natural since they are up against opponents stronger than they are.

Anyway, this isn't a kill move, but it will incapacitate MEGA.

Well now you're dealing with being stat-cliffed on top of outskilled.

Stats were never going to decide this anyhow.

Why?

Which one was that?

Su Zhou is wearing a suit of armor that ignores all forms of assault that rely on Matter, Energy, Space-Time, or Change, and absorbs and seals any power used against it.

 

[Phoenks]

Users of [Eternity] can face setbacks, but there's no permanent way to stop them. This match was never going to end with MEGA 'permanently killing' or sealing Su Zhou.

MEGA needs a method of temporary victory.

Such as?

You told me that MEGA is capable of predicting his girlfriend, despite her senses and abilities to take in information.

You also told me Precog wouldn't work on him because he's outside of the Narrative, Fate, etc. I told you the [Fate] Su Zhou looks at accounts for things like that, and scales higher than MEGA.

That's precognition, not analytical prediction.

And what I said was that MEGA is immune to precognition by virtue of lacking a future.

It is in the same vein as trying to manipulate the soul of a rock which has no soul.

I also told you, Su Zhou can predict, predictions, in an infinite recursive loop.

Who was he predicting. Also, don't even see it on the page?

And as a general note, analytical prediction doesn't have "layers," which is why I was confused.

It is one of those abilities that can only be quantified based on feats. Being able to predict a prediction and whatnot doesn't grant more layers of the ability.

The same way having a hotter fire doesn't mean that fire is layered fire.

But also, is this ability precognition or analytical prediction?

Su Zhou isn't going to fist-fight MEGA once he realizes he's outclassed. He's going to fall back onto his abilities, multiple of which MEGA can't avoid or do anything about, even if he knows they're coming.

Falling back is not happening when MEGA blitzes him, and, even on equal footing, can manage to hit Paraco through her ability to teleport herself across causality.

Yes, it's directly stated that even below his level, they simply don't make mistakes in combat. Stuff like being 'unable to react,' 'unable to foresee,' 'never imagined,' or 'did not notice,' has no chance of occurring.

There is a difference between "not making a mistake" and being so perfect that even the individual decimals of things like your sword swing arcs are aligned to a tee.

I'm talking about stuff that is so miniscule you'd need to be a supergenius or have infinite processing speed in order to actually notice in the first place.

Things that are quite literally impossible for Su Zhou to do since he lacks that level of intelligence and processing speed.

But I digress, since it seems we are already at the conclusion that MEGA would cook him in close combat.

It doesn't say it doesn't copy latent potential; it says it causes the ones caught in it to unlock theirs. Which is natural since they are up against opponents stronger than they are.

It must lack the ability to copy latent potential by virtue of that being the thing which gets one out of the illusion.

If the copies were actually perfect copies, then there should be no way to actually beat/overcome those copies. If "latent potential" is the thing that allows one to beat them, then that, logically, must be the thing that those copies lack.

Also, it says the copies have "techniques and technologies." Though it says nothing about inherent or deeper physiological/conceptual traits of an individual?

Stats were never going to decide this anyhow.

A speed advantage is still very important though. Is it even possible for Su Zhou to track someone who becomes many times faster than him? Like to the point that he can't even see them?

Su Zhou is wearing a suit of armor that ignores all forms of assault that rely on Matter, Energy, Space-Time, or Change, and absorbs and seals any power used against it.

What tier is the armor? And also, MEGA's electromagnetic attacks and whatnot ignore/bypass resistance.

Also, MEGA's attacks are non-physical and ignore distances/defenses in the first place considering they can directly hit things like "essence," which are a 1-A distance away from the physical body in the verse.

I have also actually yet to mention MEGA's most potent ability, which is manipulation of the plot. Supra-quality level. It is not in-character but I did specify he'd have those abilities, which means they could be used.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Such as?

Any of the typical SBA Conditions should work; removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week, knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting them in a state in which they can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

That's precognition, not analytical prediction.

I already told you that [Balance] can't calculate Su Zhou's existence, or possibilities.

And what I said was that MEGA is immune to precognition by virtue of lacking a future.

And I told you [Fate] encompasses beings like that. Even having free will is [Fate].

It is in the same vein as trying to manipulate the soul of a rock which has no soul.

Which is possible if fiction decides it is.

Who was he predicting. Also, don't even see it on the page?

And as a general note, analytical prediction doesn't have "layers," which is why I was confused.

It is one of those abilities that can only be quantified based on feats. Being able to predict a prediction and whatnot doesn't grant more layers of the ability.

I didn't mean literal layers.

Without hesitation, the sun and moon wheels emerged in Su Zhou’s eyes. He activated the power of his Time Divine Eye, fixing his gaze on Nan Zhengkai’s figure.

In his vision, Nan Zhengkai’s movements for the next few seconds abruptly froze, then flickered with countless afterimages, as if a system error had occurred.

Simultaneously, in Nan Zhengkai’s mind, the Time Flow Mirror bestowed by the Zhou Guang Divine Lord instantly conjured layer upon layer of illusions—precognition clashing with precognition. Su Zhou foresaw Nan Zhengkai foreseeing his foresight, and Nan Zhengkai foresaw Su Zhou foreseeing his own foresight of Su Zhou’s foresight… An endless loop of recursion ensued

But also, is this ability precognition or analytical prediction?

Analytical.

Su Zhou's brain, with the power of the divine eyes, deduced a part of Miro's past and future, seeing what He had done and thereby inferring what He was about to do!

Although it might not truly see the past and future, this 'vision' that restores past actions from the subtlest changes in Spiritual Power and infers future trends perfectly meets all my requirements!

Falling back is not happening when MEGA blitzes him, and, even on equal footing, can manage to hit Paraco through her ability to teleport herself across causality.

He's not blitzing him unless he's faster than him, but speed was equalized. Hitting someone through teleportation is less related to skill and more so an NPI and speed feat.

There is a difference between "not making a mistake" and being so perfect that even the individual decimals of things like your sword swing arcs are aligned to a tee.

His [Perfect Strikes] are already perfectly flawless to a beyond Supra degree. I have no clue why you're focusing on decimals.

But I digress, since it seems we are already at the conclusion that MEGA would cook him in close combat.

Yeah.

It must lack the ability to copy latent potential by virtue of that being the thing which gets one out of the illusion.

If the copies were actually perfect copies, then there should be no way to actually beat/overcome those copies. If "latent potential" is the thing that allows one to beat them, then that, logically, must be the thing that those copies lack.

They can get out because Su Zhou's not trying to kill them, that's stated directly in the scan. And also, you are just let out of it, you lose, no one is stated to win against the illusions.

Also, it says the copies have "techniques and technologies." Though it says nothing about inherent or deeper physiological/conceptual traits of an individual?

Divine Powers encompass all that stuff.

A speed advantage is still very important though. Is it even possible for Su Zhou to track someone who becomes many times faster than him? Like to the point that he can't even see them?

His abilities have the range, and hax to do so, yes.

What tier is the armor? And also, MEGA's electromagnetic attacks and whatnot ignore/bypass resistance.

Meta-Supra, and it would still just absorb and seal the actual attack.

Also, MEGA's attacks are non-physical and ignore distances/defenses in the first place considering they can directly hit things like "essence," which are a 1-A distance away from the physical body in the verse.

Su Zhou resists that.

I have also actually yet to mention MEGA's most potent ability, which is manipulation of the plot. Supra-quality level. It is not in-character but I did specify he'd have those abilities, which means they could be used.

Yeah, I remember that from the Joshua match

 

[Phoenks]

Any of the typical SBA Conditions should work; removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week, knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting them in a state in which they can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

Can Su Zhou be knocked out normally?

I already told you that [Balance] can't calculate Su Zhou's existence, or possibilities.

Is balance precognition or analytical prediction?

And I told you [Fate] encompasses beings like that. Even having free will is [Fate].

It doesn't really register to me how that can be the case because immunities typically can't be refuted even by higher tiered things. Like having higher tier soul manipulation isn't going to allow you to suddenly manipulate the soul of a rock.

And like I said, even in cases where you try and create a future for them, they will still lack that.

Is the ability creating a future for them? Has it worked on acausality type 2 btw?

I didn't mean literal layers.

Yeah I would say this does get firmly out-beat by MEGA predicting infinite Myrme clones. Each of whom already have the prediction to counter things that travel across time.

Not to mention, there is nothing that even suggests the usage of infinite there is means he literally saw infinitely into the future. I don't think that is what it implies at all. It seems more likely that it is just meant to see he can see a very far degree into the future.

But regardless, MEGA's feats are better than that.

He's not blitzing him unless he's faster than him, but speed was equalized. Hitting someone through teleportation is less related to skill and more so an NPI and speed feat.

Speed is equalized but we've already concluded MEGA's RE is superior, so he'd immediately become faster.

Hitting through teleportation in this case was skill. Predicting where the person would be and already having attacked there.

Especially possible because of the immeasurable speed reactions, mind you.

Meta-Supra, and it would still just absorb and seal the actual attack.

Why does he not have High 1-A durability???

Su Zhou resists that.

To what degree? You previously said he could hit his aspects

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Wait, is Mega a man? The pic on the profile doesn't help

 

[Phoenks]

Wait, is Mega a man? The pic on the profile doesn't help

Don't even worry about it too much to explain

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can Su Zhou be knocked out normally?

I mean, he doesn't need his brain or mind, so I guess not?

Is balance precognition or analytical prediction?

Analytical.

It doesn't really register to me how that can be the case because immunities typically can't be refuted even by higher tiered things. Like having higher tier soul manipulation isn't going to allow you to suddenly manipulate the soul of a rock.

And like I said, even in cases where you try and create a future for them, they will still lack that.

Is the ability creating a future for them? Has it worked on acausality type 2 btw?

I don't know, man, it's fiction BS.

If your future exists, it's [Fate], if you defy [Fate], it's fate, and if there is no such thing as Fate, then free will is [Fate]. Even if you create impossibilities and realities without Fate, it's still encompassed by [Fate].

Joshua cut off the past and future from the present, but even that was technically still fated.

Yeah I would say this does get firmly out-beat by MEGA predicting infinite Myrme clones. Each of whom already have the prediction to counter things that travel across time.

They aren't comparable feats.

It being infinite or not doesn't really change anything. If one Myrme can't predict MEGA, naturally, even infinite wouldn't.

So in the end it's just Time Travel Attack < Myrme's Prediction < MEGA Prediction.

Su Zhou's Prediction < Character A's Prediction < Su Zhou's Prediction < Character A's Prediction (Repeat)

Speed is equalized but we've already concluded MEGA's RE is superior, so he'd immediately become faster.

True.

Hitting through teleportation in this case was skill. Predicting where the person would be and already having attacked there.

Oh, I thought you meant while they were teleporting.

Why does he not have High 1-A durability???

Because its property is just being Immutable, Pseudo-Acausality Type 5 in a way.

It has nothing to do with its durability.

To what degree? You previously said he could hit his aspects

I'm talking about the Durability & Resistance Negation; he resists it to Meta-Supra.

And yeah, he has the NPI to hit them, if he can actually land those hits. Su Zhou has so many methods passively protecting his body.

 

[Phoenks]

I mean, he doesn't need his brain or mind, so I guess not?

So then what other wincon is there? Can he be mind haxed?

It being infinite or not doesn't really change anything. If one Myrme can't predict MEGA, naturally, even infinite wouldn't.

It changes everything because MEGA is having to predict an infinite amount of entities simultaneously. With each of those entities having the ability to predict things that travel through time.

And they aren't all having the same predictions. Since there is an infinite variety of them. MEGA in that case is literally processing every infinite amount of things that could happen to him in a fight and countering all of them.

Su Zhou's Prediction < Character A's Prediction < Su Zhou's Prediction < Character A's Prediction (Repeat)

This is not how that works at all. Otherwise I could simply wank MEGA prediction to hell off the basis that he can see countless moves ahead against opponents who also see countless moves ahead and is constantly predicting what other people are predicting as well. That doesn't make a chain of countless scales. That is just a singular scale.

Not to mention, this by itself is still not as impressive as predicting an attack which travels through time. Such an attack has zero physical information in the moment for you to sense and engage with. It's in a completely different dimension from just predicting someone who predicts you and so on.

Definitely disagree heavy with you here.

Because its property is just being Immutable, Pseudo-Acausality Type 5 in a way.

It has nothing to do with its durability.

So you're saying he has an armor with High 1-A invulnerability? Which also has High 1-A attack negation? Which scales higher than my verse?

If so then this is just not really a match? He basically is a 3-B in High 1-A clothing.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So then what other wincon is there? Can he be mind haxed?

Incapacitation or BFR.

Su Zhou's Dimensional Travel caps at Meta-Supra.

It changes everything because MEGA is having to predict an infinite amount of entities simultaneously. With each of those entities having the ability to predict things that travel through time.

And that's an impressive Intelligence feat, but it doesn't stop Su Zhou from predicting him, since he's only one person, and not infinite.

And they aren't all having the same predictions. Since there is an infinite variety of them. MEGA in that case is literally processing every infinite amount of things that could happen to him in a fight and countering all of them.

Same as above.

This is not how that works at all. Otherwise I could simply wank MEGA prediction to hell off the basis that he can see countless moves ahead against opponents who also see countless moves ahead and is constantly predicting what other people are predicting as well. That doesn't make a chain of countless scales. That is just a singular scale.

It means he has superior prediction abilities.

Not to mention, this by itself is still not as impressive as predicting an attack which travels through time. Such an attack has zero physical information in the moment for you to sense and engage with. It's in a completely different dimension from just predicting someone who predicts you and so on.

Su Zhou can already detect things moving beyond the constraints of space and time; his predictions would work on top of that.

Definitely disagree heavy with you here.

Agree to disagree, then.

So you're saying he has an armor with High 1-A invulnerability? Which also has High 1-A attack negation? Which scales higher than my verse?

If so then this is just not really a match? He basically is a 3-B in High 1-A clothing.

You're telling me MEGA has no methods of getting through this? I find that hard to believe based on the match he had with Joshua, who is definitely more haxed out than Su Zhou.

Especially since MEGA had the Tier advantage over Joshua's entire verse back then.

 

[Phoenks]

It means he has superior prediction abilities.

Predicting one person who is predicting you (even looped endlessly) is not a superior form of prediction to predicting an attack that travels through time.

Not to mention MEGA literally has feats of predicting people who can predict him. To an even greater extent, even. One of the first and most unimpressive things I mentioned was that he the moment you can't see thousands of step ahead, you lose. And that was a previous key.

By your logic that would mean each "step" ahead would be another form of prediction scaling.

Step 1 is the first prediction.
Other person must predict step 1 in order to match it.


Continue this over and over again.


It's literally the same exact feat. Except MEGA has even better ones through explicitly stated quantities while Su Zhou only shows a handful with a mere statement of "infinitely" which is hyperbole. And even if you go down that route I can easily get MEGA's prediction to infinite steps due to him predicting sequences of infinite attacks simultaneously?

And even THAT isn't even remotely, in the same universe, in the same dimension, as predicting infinite versions of that character who is predicting you, who can predict things that go through time. Like, I don't think you understand how far removed from the feat you brought up that is.

Even if you can see infinite moves ahead, you would get completely cooked by an attack which arrives from the future to strike you. Without feats of doing something like that, you are absolutely helpless in the face of that. You would already need to possess immeasurable speed reactions in order to counter something on that level lol.

Su Zhou quite literally doesn't even have the processing speed to even predict MEGA's reactions in the first place either. MEGA with immeasurable speed proc single and reactions literally just out-blitzes any prediction that Su Zhou could come up with by virtue of him lacking the processing, intelligence, and skill to do it.

Su Zhou can already detect things moving beyond the constraints of space and time; his predictions would work on top of that.

Without feats I doubt so? He does not have the speed to even do that. He's speed of light lol.

You're telling me MEGA has no methods of getting through this? I find that hard to believe based on the match he had with Joshua, who is definitely more haxed out than Su Zhou.

I mean you yourself just said it's acausality type 5 on a level that is above my verse?

If I had a character who had acausality type 5 scaling to some kind of supra-ultra-omega-zetta quality, how would they be changed?

Especially since MEGA had the Tier advantage over Joshua's entire verse back then.

Yeah. The tier advantage meant mega could basically do anything to Joshua and Joshua could not resist it.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I guess based on what I'm seeing Su Zhou wins via insane cosmology scaling??

I don't even know anymore. This match is well beyond my expertise lol.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Predicting one person who is predicting you (even looped endlessly) is not a superior form of prediction to predicting an attack that travels through time.

Not relevant to this conversation since Su Zhou can do that.

Not to mention MEGA literally has feats of predicting people who can predict him. To an even greater extent, even. One of the first and most unimpressive things I mentioned was that he the moment you can't see thousands of step ahead, you lose. And that was a previous key.

By your logic that would mean each "step" ahead would be another form of prediction scaling.

Step 1 is the first prediction.
Other person must predict step 1 in order to match it.

Continue this over and over again.

It's literally the same exact feat. Except MEGA has even better ones through explicitly stated quantities while Su Zhou only shows a handful with a mere statement of "infinitely" which is hyperbole. And even if you go down that route I can easily get MEGA's prediction to infinite steps due to him predicting sequences of infinite attacks simultaneously?

And even THAT isn't even remotely, in the same universe, in the same dimension, as predicting infinite versions of that character who is predicting you, who can predict things that go through time. Like, I don't think you understand how far removed from the feat you brought up that is.

Even if you can see infinite moves ahead, you would get completely cooked by an attack which arrives from the future to strike you. Without feats of doing something like that, you are absolutely helpless in the face of that. You would already need to possess immeasurable speed reactions in order to counter something on that level lol.

Su Zhou quite literally doesn't even have the processing speed to even predict MEGA's reactions in the first place either. MEGA with immeasurable speed proc single and reactions literally just out-blitzes any prediction that Su Zhou could come up with by virtue of him lacking the processing, intelligence, and skill to do it.

You're missing the core point about how prediction scaling works. The number of people involved or how many recursive “layers” of predictions exist doesn’t inherently change the qualitative nature of the feat; it only shows relative consistency or scope, not superiority in kind.

Whether it’s one opponent or infinite, the underlying principle is the same: if your predictive capacity is simply above your opponent’s baseline ability to model or anticipate you, then the number of them doesn’t matter. Prediction scaling isn’t multiplicative with opponents; it’s comparative. If A’s predictive function outperforms B’s, that remains true whether B is one person or a thousand identical minds.

When you counter someone’s prediction, you’re performing an action, a single, concrete counter-move that invalidates their prediction of you. That act itself cannot be predicted by them because your predictive ability exceeds theirs. You don’t need to perform “infinite” actions to counter infinite predictions; you only need one that they didn’t foresee.

Without feats I doubt so? He does not have the speed to even do that. He's speed of light lol.

When attacks travel through time, you don't need Immeasurable Speed to intercept them.

I mean you yourself just said it's acausality type 5 on a level that is above my verse?

If I had a character who had acausality type 5 scaling to some kind of supra-ultra-omega-zetta quality, how would they be changed?

It's his armor, not Su Zhou.

Yeah. The tier advantage meant mega could basically do anything to Joshua and Joshua could not resist it.

And Joshua still fought it to a draw.

But if MEGA really doesn't have a method, then fine.

 

[Phoenks]

Not relevant to this conversation since Su Zhou can do that.

No proof? Gets speed blitzed by an attack like that since it is immeasurable speed.

Genuinely don't get this point. Even if he could sense an attack moving through time (impossible without immeasurable speed perception), he still would not be able to react to it (impossible without immeasurable speed reactions).

You're missing the core point about how prediction scaling works. The number of people involved or how many recursive “layers” of predictions exist doesn’t inherently change the qualitative nature of the feat; it only shows relative consistency or scope, not superiority in kind.

Whether it’s one opponent or infinite, the underlying principle is the same: if your predictive capacity is simply above your opponent’s baseline ability to model or anticipate you, then the number of them doesn’t matter. Prediction scaling isn’t multiplicative with opponents; it’s comparative. If A’s predictive function outperforms B’s, that remains true whether B is one person or a thousand identical minds.

When you counter someone’s prediction, you’re performing an action, a single, concrete counter-move that invalidates their prediction of you. That act itself cannot be predicted by them because your predictive ability exceeds theirs. You don’t need to perform “infinite” actions to counter infinite predictions; you only need one that they didn’t foresee.

By this logic the feat you brought up is reduced to just one scale, not infinite.

Nothing about the feat of predicting a guy who predicts you, over and over again, is any more impressive than anything I've brought up. As I've said MEGA has things which are verbatim the same exact thing.

In order to predict multiple steps ahead against someone else who also sees multiple steps ahead, you, logically, need to predict what they are predicting. This is the same as the feat you brought up: Foreseeing someone's foresight.

Now, that ability to foresee foresight or predict someone through their own predictions, still means absolutely nothing when talking about characters who can predict attacks that move through time rather than space. We are fundamentally speaking about something beyond the measurements brought up when talking about any action confined to 3-D space. Without feats to be capable of such a thing, you can't just assume someone can do that.

It's a complete NLF.

When attacks travel through time, you don't need Immeasurable Speed to intercept them.

You do. There is literally no way to physically intercept time travel without either having time travel or having immeasurable speed.

You have no capacity to actually process or respond to what is attacking you.

It's his armor, not Su Zhou.

Okay, answer me this. How did characters in the verse affect him?

If the only way anyone in his verse affected him was by explicitly somehow bypassing acausality type 5/invulnerability on that level, then what exactly is your thought process?

 

[Phoenks]

Wait, wait a second???

Multi Galaxy level with [Immutable Matter]

??????

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No proof? Gets speed blitzed by an attack like that since it is immeasurable speed.

Genuinely don't get this point. Even if he could sense an attack moving through time (impossible without immeasurable speed perception), he still would not be able to react to it (impossible without immeasurable speed reactions).

How do you think Immeasurable Speed works?

If I launch an attack moving at Immeasurable Speed, say it hits you five seconds in the future, precognition means you’d already know about that five seconds earlier. You’d have five seconds to prepare before it even happens. So speed itself isn’t the issue; the question is whether your precognition can perceive future timelines that far ahead.

If the only way anyone in his verse affected him was by explicitly somehow bypassing acausality type 5/invulnerability on that level, then what exactly is your thought process?

You want me to give you methods?

Idk MEGA's profile. If he has precise teleportation, then he could probably teleport Su Zhou out of the armor. Or spawn attacks inside of him, though it would have to be through a method not involving space or time.

It absorbs powers and seals them, but only on contact, so a contactless ability would also probably work.

Anyway, honestly, this is basically what I had to do last time when it was MEGA vs Joshua, think of the methods Joshua had been shown to use his abilities in his novel, to counter being completely out-tiered. MEGA can probably do the same, but he would have to stop trying to brute force it since that won't work.

 

[Phoenks]

How do you think Immeasurable Speed works?

If I launch an attack moving at Immeasurable Speed, say it hits you five seconds in the future, precognition means you’d already know about that five seconds earlier. You’d have five seconds to prepare before it even happens. So speed itself isn’t the issue; the question is whether your precognition can perceive future timelines that far ahead.

That isn't how it works. There is no amount of preparation that will prevent that attack from hitting you in the future. If someone attacks you in your future then all your gain from precognition is that you die.

Same as if it went into the past. If I send an attack out to you 5 seconds into the past. The version of yourself from the past would have to intercept an attack moving through time in order to block it.

That would require immeasurable speed or some other esoteric method.

This is why immeasurable speed characters blitz infinite speed characters. Although infinite speed characters can move anywhere in 3-D space instantly, an immeasurable speed character can intercept them at any of those points before they even thought about moving there.

You want me to give you methods?

Idk MEGA's profile. If he has precise teleportation, then he could probably teleport Su Zhou out of the armor. Or spawn attacks inside of him, though it would have to be through a method not involving space or time.

It absorbs powers and seals them, but only on contact, so a contactless ability would also probably work.

Anyway, honestly, this is basically what I had to do last time when it was MEGA vs Joshua, think of the methods Joshua had been shown to use his abilities in his novel, to counter being completely out-tiered. MEGA can probably do the same, but he would have to stop trying to brute force it since that won't work.

What exactly is stopping mega from just using magic inside of his body then?

Or just using willpower to will his punched through the armor which I already said he could do.

Like, you said he resist NPI which doesn't really make sense to me?

Also the armor has finite durability??? Can't he just break it with something that doesn't involve the concepts it is shown to block?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That isn't how it works. There is no amount of preparation that will prevent that attack from hitting you in the future. If someone attacks you in your future then all your gain from precognition is that you die.

Same as if it went into the past. If I send an attack out to you 5 seconds into the past. The version of yourself from the past would have to intercept an attack moving through time in order to block it.

Actually, that's not how precognition works in most settings, especially when it's more than just a basic "danger sense" and actually lets you perceive or experience future outcomes. If you attack me in "my" future (meaning, say, five seconds from now), and I possess precognition that shows me my own death in five seconds, then that knowledge becomes part of my current present.

The whole point of true precognition is that it allows you to preemptively react to threats that would happen in your timeline, based on information you didn't originally have. If I see that I'm about to die in five seconds, I can take action now to avoid that outcome, so long as the attack doesn't literally ignore my will, override causality, or act on a level that my ability cannot perceive.

Even if the attack is "sent into the past" (say, from your present to my five-seconds-ago self), as soon as the me-from-ten-seconds-ago gets a premonition or vision of what's about to happen, that past version of me can react.

1. Time T = 0 seconds:
   I'm standing in a room. I have precognition.
2. Time T = 5 seconds:
   You send an attack aimed at me, "from the future" or otherwise.
3. My precognition at T = 0:
   I get a vision: "In five seconds, an attack will strike the exact spot where I'm standing." I see myself dying.
4. My reaction (at T = 0):
   Now, armed with this knowledge, I simply move away, take cover, or otherwise change my position or behavior.
5. Time T = 5 seconds, reality unfolds:
   The attack appears at the exact spot I would have been if I hadn't acted, but because I changed my actions based on the vision, the attack misses or hits an empty space.
6. Result:
   The future has changed, precisely because I had the information and acted on it.

What exactly is stopping mega from just using magic inside of his body then?

Su Zhou's body has scales inside it that can disperse magic.

Or just using willpower to will his punched through the armor which I already said he could do.

Willpower is a form of power in the verse, so the armor would stop that.

Like, you said he resist NPI which doesn't really make sense to me?

I didn't say he resists NPI, but it's not like his vital aspects are just unguarded.

Also the armor has finite durability??? Can't he just break it with something that doesn't involve the concepts it is shown to block?

Yes, this is literally how matches are supposed to work, lol. I bring up a point, you think of ways your character could realistically get around it, then I look for possible counters, and we keep going back and forth, exploring every angle until we’ve exhausted the options.

Honestly, I’m not sure why you gave up so quickly. Half the fun is in pushing each other to think through all the possibilities and edge cases, not just settling after the first roadblock. That’s what makes these debates interesting in the first place.

 

[Phoenks]

Actually, that's not how precognition works in most settings, especially when it's more than just a basic "danger sense" and actually lets you perceive or experience future outcomes. If you attack me in "my" future (meaning, say, five seconds from now), and I possess precognition that shows me my own death in five seconds, then that knowledge becomes part of my current present.

The whole point of true precognition is that it allows you to preemptively react to threats that would happen in your timeline, based on information you didn't originally have. If I see that I'm about to die in five seconds, I can take action now to avoid that outcome, so long as the attack doesn't literally ignore my will, override causality, or act on a level that my ability cannot perceive.

Even if the attack is "sent into the past" (say, from your present to my five-seconds-ago self), as soon as the me-from-ten-seconds-ago gets a premonition or vision of what's about to happen, that past version of me can react.

1. Time T = 0 seconds:
   I'm standing in a room. I have precognition.
2. Time T = 5 seconds:
   You send an attack aimed at me, "from the future" or otherwise.
3. My precognition at T = 0:
   I get a vision: "In five seconds, an attack will strike the exact spot where I'm standing." I see myself dying.
4. My reaction (at T = 0):
   Now, armed with this knowledge, I simply move away, take cover, or otherwise change my position or behavior.
5. Time T = 5 seconds, reality unfolds:
   The attack appears at the exact spot I would have been if I hadn't acted, but because I changed my actions based on the vision, the attack misses or hits an empty space.
6. Result:
   The future has changed, precisely because I had the information and acted on it.

You are assuming you get 5 seconds to react when the attack already took place?

If my attack slashed the you that was 5 seconds in the future, then you died in that future. Your future self is dead.

There isn't any time you have in order to actually do anything to prevent it, because my attack already landed on you in the future.

If it hadn't, then I would have missed the attack.

The same as in the past.

That is immeasurable speed.

The only way I can see someone dodging that is if their future/past self had the cosmic awareness and speed to notice an attack, and from their future/past, dodge/counter it in that moment.

Su Zhou's body has scales inside it that can disperse magic.

MEGA"s magic negates many layers of resistance so just dispersing it isn't going to do much. Also not sure how dispersing it throughout his body would be any better. MEGA is 3-A while he is 3-B. Even if he dispersed the magic all throughout his body it would still obliterate him?

Willpower is a form of power in the verse, so the armor would stop that.

Yes, this is literally how matches are supposed to work, lol. I bring up a point, you think of ways your character could realistically get around it, then I look for possible counters, and we keep going back and forth, exploring every angle until we’ve exhausted the options.

• Matter Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation & Causality Manipulation (Su Zhou's body, in addition to the spiritual energy field that passively surrounds him, is coated in a layer of partially materialized [Immutable Matter] as outer armor. This substance is entropy-related, approaching zero entropy, and is capable of resisting all forms of assault—including those based on matter, energy, space-time, and even change itself)

?

This has nothing to do with willpower? Or magic? Confused.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You are assuming you get 5 seconds to react when the attack already took place?

If my attack slashed the you that was 5 seconds in the future, then you died in that future. Your future self is dead.

There isn't any time you have in order to actually do anything to prevent it, because my attack already landed on you in the future.

If it hadn't, then I would have missed the attack.

The same as in the past.

That is immeasurable speed.

The only way I can see someone dodging that is if their future/past self had the cosmic awareness and speed to notice an attack, and from their future/past, dodge/counter it in that moment.

It doesn’t actually matter that “my future self is dead” if I, in the present or past, know that outcome ahead of time. That’s the entire principle behind effective precognition: it provides information about events that will happen unless something changes, allowing my current self to change those events.

So if my precognition shows me dying five seconds in the future, that knowledge doesn’t just belong to the version of me who is about to die. It belongs to me right now, and I can act on it.

The logic you’re using is a bit like saying: “If a time traveler goes to the future and kills your future self, you’re already dead and can’t stop it.” But in any system where information can move backward (like precognition), knowing the outcome before it happens gives you the power to change it.

MEGA"s magic negates many layers of resistance so just dispersing it isn't going to do much. Also not sure how dispersing it throughout his body would be any better. MEGA is 3-A while he is 3-B. Even if he dispersed the magic all throughout his body it would still obliterate him?

The scales absorb incoming magic and decompose the attributes that compose it, before the scales convert into their own corresponding attributes, which disperses the remaining magic. When the scales absorb too much power, they shoot off of him and self-destruct safely.

This has nothing to do with willpower? Or magic? Confused.

I didn't say it resisted willpower or magic, I said it absorbed and sealed it. That's an ability, not a resistance.

However, it was clear that the self-destructing Immutable Matter-the Bedrock Crystal-had begun to shift from "release" to "absorption"after unleashing all the energy Su Zhou had stored within it. It absorbed the Entropy Streams split from Fulcrum's form, drawing them into itself and sealing them completely!

I got to make dinner, I won't be on for a couple of hours.

 

[Phoenks]

The logic you’re using is a bit like saying: “If a time traveler goes to the future and kills your future self, you’re already dead and can’t stop it.”

This is a true statement though. In most models of time, that is indeed how time works.

Even with precognition, you would just see the inevitable. Even if you change the future through your precognition, would that not also change the timeline that the person attacking you is seeing? You are assuming you can react to the person attacking through time, but that person is unable to react to your changes?

Like, it works both ways. Isn't this where you get a bunch of paradoxes? Lol.

And btw, isn't this off topic?

The main point I was making is that analytical prediction that allows you to foresee someone foreseeing you still doesn't allow you to foresee an attack which moves through time.

The latter is a quantifiably superior form of prediction, since it involves a temporal dimension that goes beyond the 3 spatial ones that the former is confined to.

Without feats of comparable magnitude, Su Zhou would be inferior to that level of prediction.

Also, Myrme doesn't just send out one slash. Her attacks are often temporal AoE. She can hit you across your entire timeline simultaneously. The arc of her blade literally moves through time when she attacks. This was mostly useless against MEGA (lacks a past and future), but it is useful when talking about her degree of skill—since her capabilities come from fighting people with those same skills.

Myrme is used to fighting characters like herself, who attack throughout space and time. And herself, across her timeline, is capable of sensing and intercepting those attacks. Fighting across time. To me that seems pretty clearly superior to any kind of fighting throughout space tbh.

The scales absorb incoming magic and decompose the attributes that compose it, before the scales convert into their own corresponding attributes, which disperses the remaining magic. When the scales absorb too much power, they shoot off of him and self-destruct safely.

Define too much power? How many does he have? Also, we are assuming these scales work before the magic does? Why is that?

Not to mention would it not be possible that MEGA's magic just entirely negates them considering its durability-negating properties? Or just converts Su Zhou into pure energy with a thought?

I just went through every single key on his page and saw no resistance to transmutation btw.

One of MEGA's very common finishing moves is transmuting a person into energy (which also affects stuff like their soul). Is there anything stopping that? It is telekinetic and could affect Su Zhou without actually having to go through the armor.

 

[SSB64]

I guess based on what I'm seeing Su Zhou wins via insane cosmology scaling??

I don't even know anymore. This match is well beyond my expertise lol.

I feel you man, although I'm leaning towards MEGA atm.

 

[Robo432343]

nice debate

im just gonna vote incon lol

 

[Phoenks]

?????? Not over yet ?????

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah ima vote incon so that no side gets a win

 

[SSB64]

The heck? People prematurely voting.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is a true statement though. In most models of time, that is indeed how time works.

Even with precognition, you would just see the inevitable. Even if you change the future through your precognition, would that not also change the timeline that the person attacking you is seeing? You are assuming you can react to the person attacking through time, but that person is unable to react to your changes?

Like, it works both ways. Isn't this where you get a bunch of paradoxes? Lol.

And btw, isn't this off topic?

The main point I was making is that analytical prediction that allows you to foresee someone foreseeing you still doesn't allow you to foresee an attack which moves through time.

The latter is a quantifiably superior form of prediction, since it involves a temporal dimension that goes beyond the 3 spatial ones that the former is confined to.

Without feats of comparable magnitude, Su Zhou would be inferior to that level of prediction.

Also, Myrme doesn't just send out one slash. Her attacks are often temporal AoE. She can hit you across your entire timeline simultaneously. The arc of her blade literally moves through time when she attacks. This was mostly useless against MEGA (lacks a past and future), but it is useful when talking about her degree of skill—since her capabilities come from fighting people with those same skills.

Myrme is used to fighting characters like herself, who attack throughout space and time. And herself, across her timeline, is capable of sensing and intercepting those attacks. Fighting across time. To me that seems pretty clearly superior to any kind of fighting throughout space tbh.

I already told you Su Zhou can perceive things beyond the constraints of space and time even without precognition, but I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Agree to disagree, since none of Su Zhou's wincons are related to whether they can predict each other or not.

However, through his mastery over the Spiritual Power in his surroundings-indeed, across the entire Solar System-Su Zhou could perceive fluctuations in the cosmos beyond the constraints of space and time.

Define too much power? How many does he have? Also, we are assuming these scales work before the magic does? Why is that?

As in, if they absorb more power than they are capable of safely cancelling out. The scales are inside his body, so unless the magic doesn't plan on touching his body, they would absorb it.

Not to mention would it not be possible that MEGA's magic just entirely negates them considering its durability-negating properties? Or just converts Su Zhou into pure energy with a thought?

Having Durability Negation has nothing to do with ignoring absorption. You can have an arrow that ignores obstacles, but if the obstacle is hot, the arrow is still going to burn when it passes through.

Su Zhou's body is already pure energy.

 

[Phoenks]

I'm still thinking about this whole precognition thing. It's irrelevant to the fight but I still don't really get spaceman's point like...

If your future or past or present selves are killed, you die at that point on your timeline.

The only way we accept otherwise is if a person has some kind of acausality.

If your past self , say when you are a baby, gets killed because of a sword slash sent back in time, then you die at that point and causality updates so that you never existed afterwards.

If you had type 1 acausality, that wouldn't be the case.

And if you get killed in the future, then that is where your timeline ends. Precognition is also limited to what it is shown to do. Precognition doesn't make you resistant to fate manipulation, for example.

If you just have precognition and nothing else, and someone killed your future, then you die in that future. You'd need feats to prove otherwise. It would be the same as someone fating you to die. Precognition doesn't just negate that.

Also, literally nothing stops the attack from taking place at present, instantly. Like I said, Myrme can send attacks across your entire timeline. When fighting MEGA, she was slashing across 1,000 periods (~600 years) worth of time at once. 500 into the future and 500 into the past.

That is not something precognition can just... negate lol. As far as I know, you'd need type 3 acausality in order to survive that.

Like the whole point of type 3 is do that you can survive attacks to your timeline, because alternate versions of yourself will replace the one in the original timeline.

 

[Phoenks]

As in, if they absorb more power than they are capable of safely cancelling out. The scales are inside his body, so unless the magic doesn't plan on touching his body, they would absorb it.

You didn't answer how much power that would have to be though.

Like how much power is too much for them to cancel out?

Having Durability Negation has nothing to do with ignoring absorption. You can have an arrow that ignores obstacles, but if the obstacle is hot, the arrow is still going to burn when it passes through.

I was asking about the scales durability. Could he destroy the scales themselves?

 

[SSB64]

You didn't answer how much power that would have to be though.

Like how much power is too much for them to cancel out?



I was asking about the scales durability. Could he destroy the scales themselves?

While we're waiting, I should probably ask. What do you think MEGA's wincons are here?

 

[Phoenks]

Idk yet.