Test Match 2: Evolution VS Innovation

[Phoenks]

Idk yet.

This would be so much easier if Su Zhou's page had references for what tier which of his abilities scaled to.

Also, really wish I had MEGA's next key finished. This fight would be much better in that one. Since MEGA gains some really, really noteworthy abilities.

But I guess there is a couple things I have yet to really mention.

MEGA's type 3 madness manipulation via bloodlust (willingness to kill)/rage would be a win condition because there is no mentioned resistance anywhere on Su Zhou's page or in the Paths page. This would be an incap because Su Zhou would continuously start devouring himself over and over again. It has multiple layers as well and can be focused onto a specific target.

MEGA also does have High 1-A (Supra-Quality) level power negation which is based upon plot manipulation (Su Zhou notably does not resist this), which can be used to partially prevent Zu Shou from regenerating in order to incapacitate him. As he could leave him in a state where he isn't completely dead, but is unable to continue the battle. He could also use plot manipulation to just prevent Su Zhou from actually doing anything, destroy his actions, or even just rewrite the battle to his favor.

Depending on what Spaceman answers, it is probably possible he could blow up his body from the inside using his magic. MEGA is 3-A vs Su Zhou's 3-B. The gap between them is a very, very large number. Like, MEGA already scales 10^38 times higher than baseline universal.

Given MEGA's adaptability and supergenius intelligence, it is entirely in the realm of possibility that he could also teleport Su Zhou's body out of his armor like Spaceman suggested. He could effectively superposition everything about him to another location in the universe, which is something that he later learns to do to a crazy extent.

There seems to be no resistance to absorption for Su Zhou either? Which is another very common thing MEGA does. His most common finishing move is the transmutation into energy + absorption combination. Possibly allows him to just suck Su Zhou into his mana system?

I'm also honestly probably really underselling MEGA's main thing: the will to ascend. Nothing else in the verse is as potent as it. It's simply limited to everything the verse has thrown at him so far. But really, the power itself is High 1-A (Meta-Meta-Supra) levels of Subjective Reality shenanigans. The power to just do whatever he thinks he can do on that level, which is what allows him to bend different aspects of the verse to his will. Whether that be laws, reality, concepts, the narrative, etcetera. Grants him the ability to make up his own truths and overlay them over reality. Such "truths" completely transcend possibility. When a truth is involved it is more of a certainty than something being 100% probable. It is more certain than what is written in the story. Etc.

 

[Rayfire]

Really torn here. There's a lot to think about and process at once since i don't know jacksh*t about su zhou and only a little bit about mega. If there's a non-incon consensus at the end i'll try give my thoughts on who wins based on the arguments brought up

 

[SSB64]

Really torn here. There's a lot to think about and process at once since i don't know jacksh*t about su zhou and only a little bit about mega. If there's a non-incon consensus at the end i'll try give my thoughts on who wins based on the arguments brought up

Fair enough. I'm currently still leaning MEGA. Both are bonkers cracked, no doubt about it, but it sounds to me like MEGA is just that bit more busted.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You didn't answer how much power that would have to be though.

Like how much power is too much for them to cancel out?

I don't know, it's not like they really give you a quantifiable value, most of the time they defend against haz.

I was asking about the scales durability. Could he destroy the scales themselves?

Yeah, but he would have to do it in a way they wouldn't dissipate.

 

[Phoenks]

I don't know, it's not like they really give you a quantifiable value, most of the time they defend against haz.

How does like 10^60 times more energy than his physical durability sound?

If they don't have any feats against just AP then well... there is not evidence that he would be able to withstand that much then anyways.

Yeah, but he would have to do it in a way they wouldn't dissipate.

What do you mean by dissipate, exactly?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

How does like 10^60 times more energy than his physical durability sound?

If they don't have any feats against just AP then well... there is not evidence that he would be able to withstand that much then anyways.

3-D Force isn't going to solve anything; Su Zhou's River of Celestial Evolution boosts his Durability and works even against Durability Negation attacks.

What do you mean by dissipate, exactly?

I thought you were referring to an ability, not MEGA trying to just blow Su Zhou up from the inside, ignore that.

 

[Phoenks]

3-D Force isn't going to solve anything; Su Zhou's River of Celestial Evolution boosts his Durability and works even against Durability Negation attacks.

Resisting durability negation has no relevance to resisting attack potency though.

One is hax, other is not. You said yourself that his feats are primarily against hax. So without feats against AP he would be blasted by that AP difference regardless.

Also MEGA has ridiculous levels of durability negation anyway. Like High 1-A levels of it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Resisting durability negation has no relevance to resisting attack potency though.

One is hax, other is not. You said yourself that his feats are primarily against hax. So without feats against AP he would be blasted by that AP difference regardless.

No, I mean literally on his page, his bow gives him 2-C Durability.

 

[Phoenks]

No, I mean literally on his page, his bow gives him 2-C Durability.

Is that passive or what exactly? A bit confused here. I thought the bow thing was something he activated. Not something he always has which always amps his durability.

Btw the page talks about it as though it's an object which has the durability rather than his body. It's pretty confusing lol.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is that passive or what exactly? A bit confused here. I thought the bow thing was something he activated. Not something he always has which always amps his durability.

It's unified with him, but it can change forms and take its bow form and whatnot. The only reason why it's not his flat durability is that he's stubborn about it.

At this moment, if described using common tropes, Su Zhou could be considered 'half-step to the pinnacle of Path Unification, reaching the great completion'... But in reality, he already wielded the power of Path Unification—he simply refused to achieve it.

 

[Phoenks]

So if he's stubborn about it that would mean it isn't a passive thing, no? You are giving very little information with these answers

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

MEGA's type 3 madness manipulation via bloodlust (willingness to kill)/rage would be a win condition because there is no mentioned resistance anywhere on Su Zhou's page or in the Paths page. This would be an incap because Su Zhou would continuously start devouring himself over and over again. It has multiple layers as well and can be focused onto a specific target.

This is going to create an endless loop of him merging back together with himself. But it shouldn't stall him since whether he's sentient or not has no effect on his combat abilities.

Corruption & Body Control (Type 1; Su Zhou's flesh possesses the unique ability to naturally assimilate and erode anyone attempting to transplant it, transforming them into a lower dragon-blooded species with certain abilities. Conversely, if Su Zhou does not consent to the transplantation, his lost flesh will return to him, instinctively being joined back into his body)

MEGA also does have High 1-A (Supra-Quality) level power negation which is based upon plot manipulation (Su Zhou notably does not resist this), which can be used to partially prevent Zu Shou from regenerating in order to incapacitate him. As he could leave him in a state where he isn't completely dead, but is unable to continue the battle. He could also use plot manipulation to just prevent Su Zhou from actually doing anything, destroy his actions, or even just rewrite the battle to his favor.

This would work on every aspect of Su Zhou, aside from his Path, which is already merged with the universe's story.

Depending on what Spaceman answers, it is probably possible he could blow up his body from the inside using his magic. MEGA is 3-A vs Su Zhou's 3-B. The gap between them is a very, very large number. Like, MEGA already scales 10^38 times higher than baseline universal.

Addressing this, and your other comment, his bow is capable of defending against 2-C Immeasurable Speed Attacks, and is unfified with his being.

Given MEGA's adaptability and supergenius intelligence, it is entirely in the realm of possibility that he could also teleport Su Zhou's body out of his armor like Spaceman suggested. He could effectively superposition everything about him to another location in the universe, which is something that he later learns to do to a crazy extent.

This could indeed work.

There seems to be no resistance to absorption for Su Zhou either? Which is another very common thing MEGA does. His most common finishing move is the transmutation into energy + absorption combination. Possibly allows him to just suck Su Zhou into his mana system?

Su Zhou's body has sort of been sublimated into his own self-contained energy system, so transforming him won't do much. Around the same time he did that, he also learned how to wrestle control over energy away from people, for the exact purpose of absorption.

I'm also honestly probably really underselling MEGA's main thing: the will to ascend. Nothing else in the verse is as potent as it. It's simply limited to everything the verse has thrown at him so far. But really, the power itself is High 1-A (Meta-Meta-Supra) levels of Subjective Reality shenanigans. The power to just do whatever he thinks he can do on that level, which is what allows him to bend different aspects of the verse to his will. Whether that be laws, reality, concepts, the narrative, etcetera. Grants him the ability to make up his own truths and overlay them over reality. Such "truths" completely transcend possibility. When a truth is involved it is more of a certainty than something being 100% probable. It is more certain than what is written in the story. Etc.

This scales to about the highest smurf abilities Su Zhou has, aside from the abilities that use the essence of the Great Existences. As we've already discussed, though, MEGA can seemingly survive and dodge two out of the four.

The only ones that would pose a threat are [Twilight], as discussed, and his Chaos Arrow.

 

[Phoenks]

This is going to create an endless loop of him merging back together with himself. But it shouldn't stall him since whether he's sentient or not has no effect on his combat abilities.

Would stall him as he would be focused on killing/eating himself rather than attacking MEGA. It isn't removing his sentience or anything like that. It is replacing his will to act with a will to consume himself. Basically, makes him completely suicidcal.

And it works on anything, really.

Demons who lack emotions. Machines/robots without real aspects of consciousness. Even things like rocks, space itself, etc, can be influenced by his aura. For some scenes I describe it as though the world itself is afraid of him and such.

Like the suicidal/cannibalistic thing comes from you going mad with the desire to escape his presence, which comes in the form of self-cannibalism or other forms of suicide.

If Su Zhou has regeneration then he'll just by looped into that and be unable to fight. Unless I'm missing something.

This would work on every aspect of Su Zhou, aside from his Path, which is already merged with the universe's story.

What is the path and why is it relevant to this not working?

This could indeed work.

Well then goodbye to the armor ig.

Su Zhou's body has sort of been sublimated into his own self-contained energy system, so transforming him won't do much. Around the same time he did that, he also learned how to wrestle control over energy away from people, for the exact purpose of absorption.

He would have to wrestle against MEGA then. Everyone in the ark is their "own self-contained energy system" as well so that wouldn't be anything new. MEGA can have someone be 'alive' inside of his mana system, but only exist as fuel for his own powers, for example. He can also just assimilate one's energies into his own. Very common "kill" move for him.

The only ones that would pose a threat are [Twilight], as discussed, and his Chaos Arrow.

Twilight seems odd.

you said it could be stopped by simply acknowledging that it can't be stopped or something like that? so it is very useful against those with strong, stubborn wills. MEGA would likely be susceptible to it because he would not ever give in to something like that. Or admit some kind of inferiority.

probably a fair win-condition

idk about Chaos Arrow though. Couldn't its effects be mitigated by a similarly powerful level of reality warping?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Would stall him as he would be focused on killing/eating himself rather than attacking MEGA. It isn't removing his sentience or anything like that. It is replacing his will to act with a will to consume himself. Basically, makes him completely suicidcal.

And it works on anything, really.

Demons who lack emotions. Machines/robots without real aspects of consciousness. Even things like rocks, space itself, etc, can be influenced by his aura. For some scenes I describe it as though the world itself is afraid of him and such.

Like the suicidal/cannibalistic thing comes from you going mad with the desire to escape his presence, which comes in the form of self-cannibalism or other forms of suicide.

If Su Zhou has regeneration then he'll just by looped into that and be unable to fight. Unless I'm missing something.

Well, Su Zhou's body does have the instinct to fight, even when his self (including will) is unconscious, or even sent to another universe. In fact, one of its forms is all about devouring everything around it, so he should still be able to fight in that state.

What is the path and why is it relevant to this not working?

It's the most fundamental aspect of Su Zhou atm. It's also the source of all his abilities, so if you want to stop Su Zhou from doing anything or regenerating, it needs to go. But just like MEGA's thing, it exists on the Meta-Meta-Supra level, so since they're at the same Tier, it would just be a straight-out brawl.

Well then goodbye to the armor ig.

Rip.

He would have to wrestle against MEGA then. Everyone in the ark is their "own self-contained energy system" as well so that wouldn't be anything new. MEGA can have someone be 'alive' inside of his mana system, but only exist as fuel for his own powers, for example. He can also just assimilate one's energies into his own. Very common "kill" move for him.

Gotcha, we might have to go a bit more in-depth on how each verse typically wrestles control from one another. Su Zhou does it by merging his soul with the world and its energy, letting him overpower the control of others so he can regain stamina and stuff.

Twilight seems odd.

you said it could be stopped by simply acknowledging that it can't be stopped or something like that? so it is very useful against those with strong, stubborn wills. MEGA would likely be susceptible to it because he would not ever give in to something like that. Or admit some kind of inferiority.

probably a fair win-condition

Gotcha.

idk about Chaos Arrow though. Couldn't its effects be mitigated by a similarly powerful level of reality warping?

Depends on the type, I would say.

At the moment, Conceptual Manipulation (Dualities Included), Matter Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Space-Manipulation, and Infinite Distance, as well as things transcendent of them, don't seem able to stop the Chaos Arrow. So to avoid NLF, it would have to be something outside of those categories.

 

[Phoenks]

Well, Su Zhou's body does have the instinct to fight, even when his self (including will) is unconscious, or even sent to another universe. In fact, one of its forms is all about devouring everything around it, so he should still be able to fight in that state.

Yeah and what exactly is stopping the aura from making the body itself devour itself. Like I said, this kind of thing can even work on a rock lol.

It's the most fundamental aspect of Su Zhou atm. It's also the source of all his abilities, so if you want to stop Su Zhou from doing anything or regenerating, it needs to go. But just like MEGA's thing, it exists on the Meta-Meta-Supra level, so since they're at the same Tier, it would just be a straight-out brawl.

MEGA could possibly destroy it via normal attacks empowered by his willpower?, which is Meta-Meta Supra levels of just subjective reality.

Rip.

Well, importantly, outside of the armor, Su Zhou is probably cooked beyond his win-conditions.

Fighting MEGA directly (his starting move), would be impossible. And MEGA would be able to just use his standard willpower-amped punches to break various different metaphysical aspects of him. Whether that be his memories, his soul, his powers, etc.

Strong NPI.

Gotcha, we might have to go a bit more in-depth on how each verse typically wrestles control from one another. Su Zhou does it by merging his soul with the world and its energy, letting him overpower the control of others so he can regain stamina and stuff.

I mean, in my verse it is pretty much just a "your soul VS my soul" type of tug-of-war battle. Willpower type thing. When MEGA assimilates someone, he converts their spiritual information into his own by subjecting them to his will. Its a rather abstract ability. Though, it is also kind of like another NPI thing. To him, that "energy" is basically just like electricity he can absorb similar to any technological device. Even the way he converts stuff like souls to energy is just by using E=MC^2 on a conceptual level to convert things that aren't even matter into an energy form. He basically ignores what things actually are.

Depends on the type, I would say.

At the moment, Conceptual Manipulation (Dualities Included), Matter Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Space-Manipulation, and Infinite Distance, as well as things transcendent of them, don't seem able to stop the Chaos Arrow. So to avoid NLF, it would have to be something outside of those categories.

Such as... plot manipulation? xd

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Yeah and what exactly is stopping the aura from making the body itself devour itself. Like I said, this kind of thing can even work on a rock lol.

It just wouldn't cause much of a hiccup, is all. At most, Su Zhou's body would devour and sublimate itself, which it has done in the past, and still fight MEGA at the same time.

If it really comes down to it Su Zhou would just abandon his mind, body, soul, etc, and make new ones, since they're avatars from his Path.

MEGA could possibly destroy it via normal attacks empowered by his willpower?, which is Meta-Meta Supra levels of just subjective reality.

It has Invulnerability, so MEGA would need negation. Su Zhou also has Power Nullification (Via Info Type 2) that works against Invulnerability Negation, though.

I mean, in my verse it is pretty much just a "your soul VS my soul" type of tug-of-war battle. Willpower type thing. When MEGA assimilates someone, he converts their spiritual information into his own by subjecting them to his will. Its a rather abstract ability. Though, it is also kind of like another NPI thing. To him, that "energy" is basically just like electricity he can absorb similar to any technological device. Even the way he converts stuff like souls to energy is just by using E=MC^2 on a conceptual level to convert things that aren't even matter into an energy form. He basically ignores what things actually are.

Pretty much the same here. If it's a contest of will, though, everyone in the verse is essentially gifted unshakable and supernatural willpower from the get-go from their Meta-Meta Supra stuff.

Such as... plot manipulation? xd

Oh yeah, lol.

 

[Phoenks]

It just wouldn't cause much of a hiccup, is all. At most, Su Zhou's body would devour and sublimate itself, which it has done in the past, and still fight MEGA at the same time.

I don't think his body would want to fight MEGA at all. If it is affected by that, it would be a result of the body trying to "escape" from MEGA.

Like, when he did this to others before, they are essentially killing themselves so they no longer have to be in his presence. Actively trying to be in his presence probably would not be something the body would do.

It has Invulnerability, so MEGA would need negation. Su Zhou also has Power Nullification (Via Info Type 2) that works against Invulnerability Negation, though.

MEGA has invulnerability-negation from general arkane willpower abilities. Though his scales a lot higher of course.
Also has layered power negation and layered plot-based power negation. (Alongside resistance to such)
Also extremely high level of layered information manipulation resistance.

Pretty much the same here. If it's a contest of will, though, everyone in the verse is essentially gifted unshakable and supernatural willpower from the get-go from their Meta-Meta Supra stuff.

Hmm... but can they keep up with his willpower evolution? Reactive evolution thing. Willpower wills itself to become stronger and such.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't think his body would want to fight MEGA at all. If it is affected by that, it would be a result of the body trying to "escape" from MEGA.

Like, when he did this to others before, they are essentially killing themselves so they no longer have to be in his presence. Actively trying to be in his presence probably would not be something the body would do.

Yeah, in that case, he would just give up on fighting with any aspect of him that's gone mad.

MEGA has invulnerability-negation from general arkane willpower abilities. Though his scales a lot higher of course.
Also has layered power negation and layered plot-based power negation. (Alongside resistance to such)
Also extremely high level of layered information manipulation resistance.

Tiers and layers?

Hmm... but can they keep up with his willpower evolution? Reactive evolution thing. Willpower wills itself to become stronger and such.

One of his lower keys does cause his belief to infinitely elevate and transcend itself. Not enough to go beyond Meta-Meta-Supra, but meh.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, in that case, he would just give up on fighting with any aspect of him that's gone mad.

Win-condition!

Tiers and layers?

Meta-Meta-Supra for anything scaling to the willpower.

Plot is just Supra-Quality, though the manipulation of said plot is meta-meta-supra scaling to willpower. 8 layers. Same for the information. And resistances to it.

One of his lower keys does cause his belief to infinitely elevate and transcend itself. Not enough to go beyond Meta-Meta-Supra, but meh.

I see.

MEGA can probably absorb then?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Win-condition!

Meta-Meta-Supra for anything scaling to the willpower.

Plot is just Supra-Quality, though the manipulation of said plot is meta-meta-supra scaling to willpower. 8 layers. Same for the information. And resistances to it.

I see.

MEGA can probably absorb then?

Based on all this, Su Zhou is going to get cornered. Considering his only wincon is using [Twilight], he's going to probably die once.

But he has a few extra lives, so he's going to tap into his Path Unification Key once he comes back to life, if that's really his only way out. I honestly didn't think Su Zhou would have to do that in this match, but MEGA has too much Meta-Meta-Supra stuff for Su Zhou to match without it D:

 

[Phoenks]

Technically, mega does not have to kill them. All of those methods have means of only partially killing him

Such as:

1. Negating Regen but leaving him in an incapped state. It is quite possible MEGA does this because he's done it before, sometimes just leaving someone as a head, for example, and then using their head as a soccer ball. Su Zhou having type 2 Immortality would work against him.

Because MEGA can do this with literally any attack, it makes Su Zhou especially vulnerable. Especially once he's outside of the armor.

And then add on that you said Su Zhou starts with physical combat.

2. Just letting the aura to the work for him. Incapacitation from just MEGA having bloodlust. Which is... semi-passive? Would activate the moment MEGA actually wants to kill him. Which gets stronger and stronger as well. The range is also universal.

3. Absorbing his energy without actually assimilating him. Could allow MEGA to just put the guy into his mana bloodstream. He'd be alive in there, as some kind of dismembered consciousness, but under MEGA's influence. This is extremely likely as MEGA does this a lot. Outside of his general evolutionary abilities, absorbing other people is the main way he gets stronger. And his most common ending move.


Assuming MEGA does kill him and he enters his next form, what happens? What other shenanigans will he be dealing with xd

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

1. Negating Regen but leaving him in an incapped state. It is quite possible MEGA does this because he's done it before, sometimes just leaving someone as a head, for example, and then using their head as a soccer ball. Su Zhou having type 2 Immortality would work against him.

The only reason I said Su Zhou was cornered was because MEGA was going to use his Meta-Meta-Supra stuff to destroy his path. If he tries to incapacitate Su Zhou any other way, Su Zhou will hit him with [Twilight].

2. Just letting the aura to the work for him. Incapacitation from just MEGA having bloodlust. Which is... semi-passive? Would activate the moment MEGA actually wants to kill him. Which gets stronger and stronger as well. The range is also universal.

That range isn't high enough to reach the Paths.

3. Absorbing his energy without actually assimilating him. Could allow MEGA to just put the guy into his mana bloodstream. He'd be alive in there, as some kind of dismembered consciousness, but under MEGA's influence. This is extremely likely as MEGA does this a lot. Outside of his general evolutionary abilities, absorbing other people is the main way he gets stronger. And his most common ending move.

You're going to run into the same issue as #1.

Assuming MEGA does kill him and he enters his next form, what happens? What other shenanigans will he be dealing with xd

Well, Su Zhou's every ability becomes Meta-Meta-Supra and gains a few abilities beyond Aperio.

 

[Phoenks]

The only reason I said Su Zhou was cornered was because MEGA was going to use his Meta-Meta-Supra stuff to destroy his path. If he tries to incapacitate Su Zhou any other way, Su Zhou will hit him with [Twilight].

He'll have no memory of how to do that, and it'll remain that way because he won't be able to regenerate th damage to his essential aspects.

That range isn't high enough to reach the Paths.

Doesn't need to be. As long as you perceive or are in proximity of MEGA that'll happen. I mean, I guess if you want to count it's non-physical range, it would indeed be Meta-meta-supra whatever. But it's irrelevant anyway cause type 3 doesn't need range like that to work regardless.

You're going to run into the same issue as #1.

Same thing. He'll be dismembered and have his regen negated, preventing him from dying, restoring himself, and also doing anything he thinks he can do.


Btw I do want to say I am a bit confused by how this started with you saying that Su Zhou could be "incapacitated" but now apparently you think every incap method just doesn't work?

And also, he just goes to another key if mega kills him?

It seems like the goal post keeps shifting the more stuff I bring up. Though it would be really funny if the only reason this guy survives is because he jumps to another key where he just out scales.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

He'll have no memory of how to do that, and it'll remain that way because he won't be able to regenerate th damage to his essential aspects.

Damage to his path isn't going to cause him to lose memories. The only way to do that would be to do something to his True Spirit, but we've already discussed why MEGA can't do anything to that.

Doesn't need to be. As long as you perceive or are in proximity of MEGA that'll happen. I mean, I guess if you want to count it's non-physical range, it would indeed be Meta-meta-supra whatever. But it's irrelevant anyway cause type 3 doesn't need range like that to work regardless.

You can have Su Zhou's aspects devouring themselves all you want. Unless you change his path to that, which would mean destroying it, since it is his ideals, then it won't incapacitate Su Zhou.

Same thing. He'll be dismembered and have his regen negated, preventing him from dying, restoring himself, and also doing anything he thinks he can do.

You can do whatever you want to his body; it won't incapacitate him.

And also, he just goes to another key if mega kills him?

It seems like the goal post keeps shifting the more stuff I bring up. Though it would be really funny if the only reason this guy survives is because he jumps to another key where he just out scales.

Smurfs gonna smurf.

 

[Phoenks]

Damage to his path isn't going to cause him to lose memories. The only way to do that would be to do something to his True Spirit, but we've already discussed why MEGA can't do anything to that.

You bring this up now? Why did you even give me the runaround from before?

You can do whatever you want to his body; it won't incapacitate him.

?

Smurfs gonna smurf.

So are you saying that the conclusion is that Su Zhou actually just loses the fight, comes back in a higher key, and stomps purely because he has a cosmology that out scales?

That might be the most boring conclusion ever.

I mean, I'm not just giving up but every time I mention a win con which you previously seemed to be fine with, the goalpost shifts. It's a kinda wacky.

Like I don't get why you told me he could be incapped if that is actually not the case? Or even made me think this was a match at all if Su Zhou can just ... go to a higher tier instead of ever actually losing by any methodology?

Makes me feel like I wasted time.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You bring this up now? Why did you even give me the runaround from before?

I didn't, lol.

I made MEGA's win conditions very clear; he can't permanently kill or incap Su Zhou, so he has to temporarily do so. But if MEGA has no way of doing so without killing him, then

?

I mean, what else are you going to dismember?

So are you saying that the conclusion is that Su Zhou actually just loses the fight, comes back in a higher key, and stomps purely because he has a cosmology that out scales?

Makes me feel like I wasted time.

Hey, MEGA did the same thing to Joshua last versus battle. Joshua had him, and then MEGA pulled out Tier 0 stuff, and it was gg.

 

[Phoenks]

I didn't, lol.

I made MEGA's win conditions very clear; he can't permanently kill or incap Su Zhou, so he has to temporarily do so. But if MEGA has no way of doing so without killing him, then

I mean, what else are you going to dismember?


Hey, MEGA did the same thing to Joshua last versus battle. Joshua had him, and then MEGA pulled out Tier 0 stuff, and it was gg.

Huh? I was very charitable and fair to Joshua last match. Tier wasn't even that big of a factor and in all honesty I could've just said mega stomped through tier 0 smurfery but I didn't. Mostly because I find such a thing to be boring and I don't believe it's impossible that Joshua's future High 1-A passive miracle blessings could maybe work out something.

Anyway...

I gave multiple temporary incap options. You don't seem to think any method works though? Incap through any kind of physical or metaphysical damage doesn't work. Incap via changing his state of partaking in the match doesn't work. Incap through absorption doesn't work. Incap through plot doesn't work.

What exactly do you think could work, then? Could you bring up some methods of "temporary incap" that would work. As a general thing.

Because right now I'm convinced you basically just led me on for this whole match.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Huh? I was very charitable and fair to Joshua last match. Tier wasn't even that big of a factor and in all honesty I could've just said mega stomped through tier 0 smurfery but I didn't. Mostly because I find such a thing to be boring and I don't believe it's impossible that Joshua's future High 1-A passive miracle blessings could maybe work out something.

Anyway...

Exactly. I'm telling you that MEGA does win. He can manage to kill Su Zhou, and Su Zhou only has one chance at killing MEGA.

But after he dies, he does have a method of coming back in his other key.

I gave multiple temporary incap options. You don't seem to think any method works though? Incap through any kind of physical or metaphysical damage doesn't work. Incap via changing his state of partaking in the match doesn't work. Incap through absorption doesn't work. Incap through plot doesn't work.

What exactly do you think could work, then? Could you bring up some methods of "temporary incap" that would work. As a general thing.

Because right now I'm convinced you basically just led me on for this whole match.

Incap through plot would work. As long as it's down for the SBA stuff, and not permanently.

 

[Phoenks]

Incap through plot would work. As long as it's down for the SBA stuff, and not permanently.

The difference between temporary and permanent doesn't really matter. SBA is simply that MEGA has to incap him for 24 hours.

So it doesn't matter whether or not Su Zhou is incapped permanently. As long as it's for 24 hours, MEGA wins. Whether or not it would've been temporary or not after that doesn't factor in as far as I know.

Alternatively, if he knocks him out. But apparently he can't be knocked out so IDK about that.

You say incap through plot works. Does it? I mean, theoretically MEGA can indeed just keep rewriting the same script. Or even have him following something for a whole 24 hours. It's not the most characteristic thing though.

I'm also still not sure what exactly is preventing the whole "keep eating yourself" method lol. Like, if Su Zhou has no aspects that can actually damage MEGA because he's in a state of consuming himself, MEGA would win.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The difference between temporary and permanent doesn't really matter. SBA is simply that MEGA has to incap him for 24 hours.

So it doesn't matter whether or not Su Zhou is incapped permanently. As long as it's for 24 hours, MEGA wins. Whether or not it would've been temporary or not after that doesn't factor in as far as I know.

It's weird, future key, pseudo-logic.

As long as there is a 'chance' Su Zhou can get out of the incap, or be unsealed, or anything of that nature, that means reaching his future keys is not impossible, and [Miracle] and [Eternity] won't kick in. It doesn't matter if he's sealed there for 24 hours or until the Multiverse itself dies, as long as there's some possibility, it's fine.

You say incap through plot works. Does it? I mean, theoretically MEGA can indeed just keep rewriting the same script. Or even have him following something for a whole 24 hours. It's not the most characteristic thing though.

Yeah, that works.

I'm also still not sure what exactly is preventing the whole "keep eating yourself" method lol. Like, if Su Zhou has no aspects that can actually damage MEGA because he's in a state of consuming himself, MEGA would win.

I explained it in Discord.

 

[Phoenks]

It's weird, future key, pseudo-logic.

As long as there is a 'chance' Su Zhou can get out of the incap, or be unsealed, or anything of that nature, that means reaching his future keys is not impossible, and [Miracle] and [Eternity] won't kick in. It doesn't matter if he's sealed there for 24 hours or until the Multiverse itself dies, as long as there's some possibility, it's fine.

I mean there would probably always be a possibility if Miracle and Eternity exist lmao.

But I also think that literally doesn't matter.

Like, let's say for example, I poison you, but the poison takes 48 hours to work. However, in that time you manage to incap me for 24 hours. You win the fight. Even though I might still end up killing you at that 48 hour mark, you succeeded in fulfilling the win condition before I did.

So I don't even think his miracles matter. If mega managed to do any kind of incap for at least 24 hours, whatever would've happened after that doesn't matter. Even if the miracle would've got him out of it somehow beyond that point.

And considering that verse has higher tiered god people looking after them, would the chances not always be higher than 0%? I mean, if he is destined by those beings to reach those keys, then MEGA winning the fight for 24 hours could just be a temporary thing relative to them. That's just my thought, anyway.

So any incap method should work regardless.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

And considering that verse has higher tiered god people looking after them, would the chances not always be higher than 0%? I mean, if he is destined by those beings to reach those keys, then MEGA winning the fight for 24 hours could just be a temporary thing relative to them. That's just my thought, anyway.

So any incap method should work regardless.

True

 

[Phoenks]

Had some discussion off site and found out that MEGA and Su Zhou are practically identical in their world views.

So MEGA has no real reason to actually kill Su Zhou. I went into my verse again to search for times when MEGA fights people who he doesn't want to kill. Usually, MEGA reserves the most brutal endings for those who are pure evil or so far gone that he couldn't do anything to progress them out of their current state. In other cases, he's done a couple of things. Usually he recruits people as his underlings. Which he can do via natural charm, aura charm, mental domination, or plot hax.

Su Zhou doesn't seem like the irredemable. It's questionable then, whether MEGA would even use certain win conditions. It actually seems more likely that if they talk during the battle, MEGA may gain insight onto Zhou's character and begin to try getting at him in different ways.

One way would be using his aura for it's more charmy effects, rather than madness. As I said the effects are numerous and they change depending on willpower and emotion. It is possible that MEGA starts with killing intent but then becomes more neutral. In which case, perhaps he uses his aura combined with his words to try and influence Su Zhou. He is a pretty natural leader and has a way for making people listen and, at times, simply obey him. In terms of hax, his aura gets stronger when focused and at its maximum potential is multi-layered Meta-Meta-Supra levels of mind, empathy, fear, and just general emotional manipulation. So rather than subjecting Su Zhou to madness, he could attempt to recruit him.

This is actually exactly what he did to Myrme, funnily enough. He was originally trying to kill her but upon learning of her situation (she was forced into assassinating him by terrible dictator people), he immediately decided to spare her, make her his subordinate, and help her break free of those people's shackles. His aura going from maddening to empathic in the process.

Basically....what if MEGA simply... decides that Su Zhou is better as a friend?

They both want the same things. A better world. Not perfect, but the best that they can possibly make it. They both have similar concepts. MEGA is in a constant state of evolution, becoming greater and greater. While Su Zhou continues to innovate and reinvent himself. And those things project onto the world around them.

Yeah, I've convinced myself the most plausible outcome of this is that MEGA just befriends the guy lol.

I mean, I guess in the case that MEGA does just go full throttle trying to DESTROY him, that he could potentially get some kind of incapacitation win. But that route is more inconclusive than anything. It's really just a gamble on whether MEGA incapacitates him or kills him (accidentally or otherwise). Not to mention it seems like in that case, Su Zhou only really has one win condition, which is Twilight. And his other big win condition is going to another key I didn't even want to use for the match! Which also, ironically, only happens if MEGA 'wins' the fight via killing him !!!!

How backwards is that!? Losing because you succeeded is crazy!

I guess I'll see what Spaceman says tomorrow about all that.

 

[Rayfire]

Basically....what if MEGA simply... decides that Su Zhou is better as a friend?

I want blood, not happy endings

 

[Phoenks]

Win via happy ending or inconclusive via smurf technicalities. I personally find the latter wayyy more boring.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Had some discussion off site and found out that MEGA and Su Zhou are practically identical in their world views.

On surface personality, early Su Zhou would indeed be almost similar to MEGA. But past the encounter during his Heavenly Emperor, Su Zhou... Su Zhou grows.

I went into my verse again to search for times when MEGA fights people who he doesn't want to kill. Usually, MEGA reserves the most brutal endings for those who are pure evil or so far gone that he couldn't do anything to progress them out of their current state.

Early Su Zhou is like this, but during his fight against the Void Cult Leader, Su Zhou laments that he still cannot change the Cult Leader's mind and thus saves him from the self-destruction. Su Zhou genuinely grieved for the Void Cult Leader when he annihilated him for not actually bringing him to the right path. I can't imagine MEGA doing the same.

  The World Dragon, high in the heavens, lowered his massive head, as if sighing, yet also laughing self-deprecatingly: [Su Zhou, Zhu Zhou, Dragon of Eternal Innovation—Tell me, tell me, what do you have to say to me?]

  [And to the Creator who created everything, yet cares nothing for it, the Founder of the Great Seal, what do you have to say?]

  "If you had not harmed other lives, but had simply waited until now."

  Su Zhou extended his right hand and placed it on his left arm.

  At that moment, the dragon's arm, frozen by the vast condensation of spiritual energy, the power of the three Senostia Lords, and the Lords of the Imperial Arms of Earth's pantheon, gathered from the heavens and the myriad realms, became impenetrable and immovable.

  The young man clutched the nearly unconscious arm and replied sincerely, "Then I will love you, as I love all living things."

  "Master of Nothingness, if you were that kind of being, I would love you. You, like all things, are an indispensable part of this universe. If someone insults you, I will punish them. If someone attempts to kill you, I will judge them. This is my righteousness and rightness."

  "You know that everything I say is true. Your existence means a great deal to me. Your brothers and sisters, your compatriots, are the ancestors of all life in our universe. You are the first stars, constituting everything we are today."

  "But you are not a being that waits—no creature can wait like that. I know very well, I know very well that the way of dusk is harsh, and all this is but hindsight. You have already come this far."

  "All life, all existence, even nothingness itself, perhaps is a miracle!"

  "As for the specific thoughts of the creator of this great seal, whether he truly doesn't care, that doesn't concern me."

  "Even if he truly doesn't care, so what? At worst, I'll care about everything in this multiverse!"

  he whispered to himself, laughing, but then the young man sighed deeply.

  He reached out and grasped at the void.

  The next moment, a gigantic evil spirit, almost pure black with only a hint of starlight flickering at the edges, was snatched out by Su Zhou from the endless wreckage in the center of the world.

  The young man's emotions were very mixed. Naturally, he was delighted. He had defeated such a powerful enemy, ending the cosmic crisis and paving the way for the future restoration of the Great Seal and the return of the three fragments, clearing away all stumbling blocks.

  Regardless, he was extremely happy and relieved.

  But Su Zhou, like him, also had mixed emotions.

  "This situation isn't the fault of the Void Leader alone, but the fault of the entire universe, of all the great beings who have guided him."

  "The stardust that makes up all of us, the ancient life that gave birth to our original form, should have been the living fossil of our universe, the best leader and teacher of all civilizations—if he were good, how could there be so many tragedies in the world?"

  "But how could he be good? The entire universe, all races and all life, are built on the corpses of his brethren, and he was once captured, studied, and even killed by these later races... How could he love this universe?"

  If anything, this lonely soul was probably born wrong, perhaps even without a choice...

  Su Zhou sighed deeply and shook his head slightly.

  Killing powerful beings connected to the Void always brought him the same feeling of emptiness.

  Because no one, including him, could answer the puzzlement these monsters were wondering—the ultimate meaning of life.

Su Zhou is truly selfless, I can't say the same for MEGA lol. Su Zhou doesn't revel in good fights anymore after this.

There is also no pure or absolute evil for Su Zhou, unlike in MEGA view, everyone and every being in the multiverse is redeemable for him.

With his back to the infinitely circulating, infinitely increasing progress bar, Su Zhou faced the True Spirit of the Multiverse, who had firmed up, whose belief was even firmer, and who also believed in 'himself' even more. He just shook his head gently. "True Spirit of the Multiverse, I really love you."

"No matter what you think, what you want to do, just confront me. I am willing to bless you."

[Innovation] said softly, with a conviction that was always unquestionable, "I am willing to bless you, to obtain true freedom."

"This is the better story I want to bring to you."

"Go ahead."

And Su Zhou said, watching the True Spirit, which now had a 'belief,' and smiled happily. "True Spirit, if this is what you want to do, then go ahead. This is your freedom—but don't forget one thing."

He gazed at the youth before him, raised his hand, and raised the long blade that had been condensed from his belief.

Su Zhou calmly declared, "I will stop you."

"If you are a god, I will be your opposition; if what you are doing is the correctness in your heart, I will be your eternal question."

"If you want to bring darkness, I will be the bright day that illuminates the dark night; if you want to bring destruction and despair, I will be the guiding light that leads the masses."

"True Spirit, even if you become a monster again, I am the 'innovation' that can turn you into a better existence countless times!"

If one were to say that [Innovation] is also a story.

Then, he is the process that leads all things, from the very beginning, to gradually increase.

He can reach 100%, and can also do better, surpassing this 100%. It is also possible that he is just hovering between one number and another.

But he will never give up any number, and the hope of stepping towards a better and greater number.

He will never give up on any beings salvation. The story of Su Zhou is more of a story of a Messiah and a Buddha; he is more than a man who just wants to make everything better; he is another archetype altogether. Even if you hurt Su Zhou, disdain him, reject him, trample upon his dignity, Su Zhou will always love you, and he will always bless you; your being on the right path will always make him happy. He will never give up on you, even if it takes an infinite amount of time and eternity of effort to do. The theme of Su Zhou's character definitely takes a lot of themes from Christianity.

I don't see MEGA as this.

They both want the same things. A better world. Not perfect, but the best that they can possibly make it. They both have similar concepts. MEGA is in a constant state of evolution, becoming greater and greater. While Su Zhou continues to innovate and reinvent himself. And those things project onto the world around them.

On surface, it would seems that MEGA and Su Zhou both want the same thing. But, the motives and deeper meaning are pretty much different. Su Zhou spread his Innovation because of love, he is not Love because he is Innovation, he is Innovation because of Love.

Not to create an innovative result for the sake of the correctness of [innovation], but to choose the path of [innovation], which one believes to be correct, for the sake of [love].

Not to [innovate] for the sake of [innovation], but because one [firmly believes] from the bottom of one's heart that one's [love] can bring correctness, and let all living beings also [believe] in this [love].

Not for a result.

But to let a new, more, and infinite 'love'... happen eternally, absolutely, and infinitely!

What I see more of the difference of Su Zhou from MEGA is his concept of unconditional love and selflessness.

"I thank you for your sacrifice. I bless all life, including all beings, including the nameless, including you. From now on, there will be no more sacrificed, no more nameless."

Love is something that doesn't need words, doesn't need communication. It originally exists, and is the first cause of the multiverse... Could it be that because he couldn't see, couldn't hear, Su Zhou would not believe in the Zhuzhou in the hearts of all beings, and that all beings would not believe in the light in their own hearts?

Could it be that just because he couldn't meet with all beings, he, Su Zhou, would not love all beings?

Of course not.

So...

"All the sacrificed, all the dead since ancient times."

The young man lowered his eyes and said gently, "All the nameless, the forgotten, the silent in the abyss of ancient nothingness, the dark and indifferent pit."

"I am with you."

[At this moment, someone is dying somewhere in the world.]

[Dying in the world for no reason.]

[Looking at me.]

He said, "Spiritual energy, the creator of the age of miracles, the source of my cultivation all along, the True Spirit of the multiverse that gave birth to me."

He said, "No matter who you are, who you think you are."

He said, "No matter what, whether you exist or not, whether you can hear, whether you can understand, whether you can agree."

He, to this True Spirit of the Multiverse, who had 'sacrificed' its own future and possibilities, freedom and choices, and even happiness and love, because it had given birth to the beings of the multiverse, said in a tone that could not be more gentle, the most sincere thought in his heart.

"I want to tell you, I am Su Zhou, I am the Primordial Zhuzhou, I am the better possibility, I am innovation, I am the non-existent existence, the impossible possibility, a rushing Torrent among all things, a force that is always circulating."

Su Zhou opened his arms. He embraced Huntian, and embraced the True Spirit of the Multiverse. "I came here to see you, and to tell you."

"I love you."

"And so I will give you a better ending."

And a true Torrent, in this infinite, absolute, and eternal 'love,' fell into silence.

So, in Su Zhou's heart, love is roughly divided into four types.

—The love that is given between souls.

—The love that is entangled between desires.

—The love that is touched between joys.

And finally...

—Unconditional love.

The first kind of love originates from a lonely soul. Since the birth of the mind and the self-will, each independent soul has been unable to communicate with other souls, and can only use complex and imperfect tools such as language and writing to communicate the fragments of their true thoughts, resulting in all kinds of misunderstandings, incomprehension, and an unspeakable solitude.

But there are always some souls who, without needing many words, just a touch of the eyes, a few gestures, or even just silently doing something together, can make both sides understand each other. That is the supreme friendship and kinship, a pure help and recognition, a kind of understanding and belief.

This kind of love is always inclusive and equal, mutually supportive and giving, mutually bestowing upon each other their own strength and trust, like the pillars of a temple, intertwined and independent, yet also supporting the magnificent main hall.

The second kind of love originates from greedy movement. All things are born with their own purpose, and life must eventually reproduce. Whether it is flesh and blood, machinery, or spiritual elements, there is a reason for their birth, and a desire for their growth. Even a single cell will divide and spread, and a virus will invade and transfer. That most primitive desire is the first prime mover of all life's movement, and also the source of desire.

Life born from nothingness, the power it adds to itself is a rising of desire. And the entanglement of desire between lives is also a most primitive, most pure, most sublime and subtle desire, an instinctive entanglement and overlap, a birth and creation of essence.

This kind of love is always selfish and fiery. It will sacrifice others to satisfy its own desires. The steaming and derivation of burning emotions gives rise to many sublime and sinful things, like a tornado at sea, which is both plundering, spectacular, and beautiful, but in the end, it is still a phenomenon that needs to be controlled.

The third kind of love. It originates from the joy of the self. All beings are different, and that joy from the bottom of the heart is rarely seen. For some people, it is occasionally just looking up at the clouds in the sky, occasionally just looking at the rain outside the window, occasionally just touching the white snow, occasionally just seeing a cute little cat or dog on the roadside, reaching out to touch its head, and it also gently rubs its head.

In this spontaneous, nameless joy, a simple and subtle touch is born. It does not need to give, does not need to get, does not need to monopolize, and does not need to plunder or sacrifice. It is a pure, self-nature's expression, a self-born overflowing.

This kind of love is always solitary and quiet. In this joy, the clouds cannot get this joy, the rain cannot get this joy, the white snow cannot get this joy, and those cute pets cannot be shared this joy. It is like a single lamp lit in an uninhabited town, not bright for anyone, but only because it wants to shine, so it shines.

But all of this, these three kinds of love, are just fragments of the fourth kind of love.

The eternal, absolute, and infinite [love].

He also loves his enemies because he wants to save them.

—Love is power, it is also responsibility, and even more so, guidance, duty, and shackles.

But the current Su Zhou had broken through this shackle without any hesitation.

Only because his love covered the entire territory, and even the True Spirit of the Multiverse, and the six Torrents who were fighting with him, were no exception.

I don't see this in MEGA.

Also, Su Zhou's name for his Torrent self is the "Torrent of Love".

From what I see from MEGA, his motive for evolution is that he wants to get free from the shackles. MEGA is more similar to Joshua than Su Zhou is.

Miracle!

I, Joshua van Radcliffe, shall bestow a blessing upon all things across the Multiverse.

As long as one would persevere in diligence, determination that is not worn down, and step up to the highest peak when the path reaches the end—as long as that is being accomplished, regardless of who it could be or what they are aligned to: advanced intelligent beings, ordinary fish, or jellyfish, the just, the evil, the warmongering, the peaceful, the living, the lifeless, Order or Chaos, all existence or oblivion…

I shall bestow a miracle upon all things!

So yeah, Su Zhou is more of a Messiah and Buddha archetype than MEGA does.

 

[SSB64]

I want blood, not happy endings

I feel you man.

It's kinda the fate of these matchups though. These big complex fights, at least from what I've seen almost always just end in Incons or some other weird non-battle Incon, so I'm starting to feel like we shouldn't be doing them.

 

[Phoenks]

Oh wow, yeah that is indeed a bit different when you add those layers. Bro is on that Jesus Christ archetype. MEGA is definitely more selfish in comparison. And does not possess some unconditional love for everything and everyone.

He's also more of just a control freak in general who relishes in being on top.

So yeah, Su Zhou is more of a Messiah and Buddha archetype than MEGA does.

From what I see from MEGA, his motive for evolution is that he wants to get free from the shackles.

Certainly one thing, though it is also just to make things better.

 

[Rayfire]

I feel you man.

It's kinda the fate of these matchups though. These big complex fights, at least from what I've seen almost always just end in Incons or some other weird non-battle Incon, so I'm starting to feel like we shouldn't be doing them.

I was making a joke, but that does have some truth to it. Usually it's a hax stomp with these tier 1 debates though

 

[Phoenks]

I mean, MEGA could still win "normally" with any incapacitation option. And MEGA has more of those options than Su Zhou has win conditions. Su Zhou only really has [Twilight] or his last resort option of transforming into his stronger key. MEGA just needs to prevent Su Zhou's lower aspects from being able to hurt him.