Terminator Revisions.

[XING06]

Sounds good. But the regular terminator-movie variants should top out around room level to at most building level for t-3000 as they have been demonstrated to be able to be damaged with more conventional/lower levels of ap.

 

[MJF6219]

Room level movie T-800 seems spot on since they've been able to smash through walls with ease and survive point blank pipe bombs and under barrel grenade launcher grenades.

 

[XING06]

Actually the underbarrel grenade launcher stuff would only be wall level max if it was just HE, HEDP variant would have similar penetration to a .50 BMG AP bullet so yes wall to room depending on what grenade they used (which they didn't specify). I'm more impressed by how they can survive getting smashed through the walls and how slowly they were crushed by the press.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, to be fair, some of the not so impressive feats might be due to cinematic limitations. As mentioned above, the Terminator does have some tier 8 feats in T3 and T5 as well as Class-25 lifting strength feats. Additionally, T-800 still fought the T-1000; who should techinically be considered a more advanced Terminator that the T-850 or even the T-900. Star Wars for example had very unimpressive feats in the original trilogy, but the prequals and The Force Awakens both had feats that were more impressive. Additionally, the Class-T lifting feats are limited to OoT Link, but scales to both Twilight Princess Link and ALttP Link due to the fact that they both fought Ganondorf; and because the Titan Mitts were said to be comparble to the Golden Gauntlets despite the Titan Mitt feats appearing more like Class-K

Anyway, I'm alright with seperate keys, but personally prefer just a single composite key. IMO, having seperate keys for the low end feats and high end feats sounds like a repeat of Mario ranging from Small City Level to Multi Solar System Level again. On top of that, I also feel that having seperate keys between "T1 and T2" and "T3 and beyond" sounds like having separate keys for Original Star Wars trilogy and another for the prequal and reboot trilogies.

 

[MJF6219]

Well, I don't think we're going to have that many keys.

Likely just keys for the movie T-800's and for the comic T-800's or something like that.

 

[XING06]

Seems about right to me.

 

[XING06]

I was thinking T-800, T-850, and Comics.

 

[MJF6219]

Yea that seems good

Well, one of the calc members said that the said that terminator surviving the ocean depths calc wouldn't work because applying the KE of bullets to the pressure of the ocean don't mix and the actual energy needed to survive those would be much lower than city block. This just me think how in the hell did this method get approved by the OBD.

But anyway comic book terminator will have to stay Large building level+ until I get the Terminator surviving the energy of the Mexico City power grid feat calc'd which which should likely get terminator to At least 8-B

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, Great White Sharks are only Wall Level so I do sorta see why surviving at the bottom of the Ocean isn't Cityblock Level. But yeah, the T-850 might still be 8-B. And oh wait, I actually do remember the T-800 surviving the detonation of a semi-truck loaded of gasoline in the first film. That I believe should be Building Level at bare minimum. And all it did was take off his flesh and blood. As for the Hydralic press, I also heard that they could be millions of PSI as mentioned above. Additionally, Terminator may have been budged by an upclose shot got blast, but he wasn't necesarly damage by it. 9-A would still be the bare minimum of how strong the original T-800 would be.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you summarise the legitimate feats?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Terminators are consistently shown to be pretty much bullet proof; particularly when he was undamaged by multiple upclose shotgun rounds. Shotguns are 9-A iirc. There was the detonation of a gasoline filled semi-trailer truck. Unsure of the AP, but it is calcable. I know there was a dynamite involved with the explosion; and all it need was incinerate his flesh and blood, but the Titanium Exo-Skeleton was undamaged; I'd say it's roughly and 8-C feat. This would scale to the canon movie T-800 as it came from the first Terminator movie.

T-850 has some Class-25 lifting feats; Lifted a bench pressed a hydralic press in Terminator 3 and held a school bus with one hand in Terminator Genisys. In T3, there was also Crane dragged through the edge of a building and hit by a speeding fire truck. TBH I'm still unsure if that's any higher than 8-C.

Was thinking about comic book version being 8-B actually. @MJF6219, could you link the Mexico City Power grid feat? It probably could use a proper calc as well. But for now, we still have his Large Building Level+ feat on his profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we can use the Large Building level+ feat for the comicbook incarnation, but if I remember correctly, this was not considered to be canon to the movies, so separate keys might be best.

We can scale the movies from semi-trailer truck explosion though.

 

[MJF6219]

Here's the Mexico City power grid feat. He was temporarily ko'd by the power grid but still survived nonetheless.

1

2

I put it on the calc request thread a few hours ago.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[XING06]

Gasoline especially uncontained doesn't actually have much blast force. Compared to TNT it is much much much weaker.

And how is a shotgun slug 9-A? Its energy is street level+ and its penetration is wall level at best (a shotgun has much lower penetration than a rifle as it is much slower it just has more mass).

I'll try to find the relative effectiveness for a gasoline explosion but I think 9-A would actually be the maximum for a T-800. A T-850 on the other hand...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There is also the dynamite that blew up the semi-truck that needs to be accounted for. Gasoline is super flammable, so it does enhance upon the the explosion of the dynamite. Based on the size of the explosion, it does look at least large enough to cover and average sized house; which is the typical 8-C feat.

By bad, Shotguns are 9-B looking at the Elephant hun profile, but they were specifically desined to one shot a full grown grizzly among other animals comparible; which have 9-B durability. Terminator is still impervious to the shotgun though; I recall @Matthew Schroeder saying that being 8-C is the requirement to be truly bullet proof.

 

[XING06]

Yes but as I said the T-800 is shown mainly to tank small arms fire, which a good 9-A can stop. Also like I said before a shotgun probably has the least penetration of all long-arms. A good kevlar vest can stop it without any hard inserts. The penetration is much much much less than even a assault rifle. For instance the modern standard issue M855A1 5.56x45mm NATO assault rifle round can penetrate 3/8 in. of steel. A shotgun has at least 3 times more energy but there is unable to penetrate this.

Dynamite by itself is only 1.25 times more powerful than TNT and again the size of a gas explosion doesn't really account for AP as that's more blast radius than energy. What your are seeing is mostly flame no bang.

Actually though a thought occurs could anyone check if the gas was being transported in liquid or vapor form? Because if it's vaporized then its a whole nother story. A fuel air explosive is a lot more powerful than the initial explosion.

Anyway until we figure that out I don't think its a good idea to have 8-C; should be 9-A for movie T-800 (a tank could survive that sort of explosion if it were liquid gasoline and the bullet feats .50 BMG for example have 9-A penetration [I think] at best which can kill a T-800).

 

[XING06]

@MJF6219

Okay I take back my electrical resistance theory, but there seems to be some canon contradictions for the EU universe which includes comics.

First though, are we including books into the comics category or not? Because if we do there T-800s and T-850s have actually been effectively taken out be EMP bombs before in the novelization. An EMP is basically a bomb using a magnetic pulse to generate an electric current within the electronics at an intensity the electronics can't handle. Their equipment isn't even a powerful nuclear EMP its a Flux Compression Generator Bomb. Which is probably the weakest most primitive EMP currently available, but its still capable of taking out a terminator.

So if comics include the whole EU universe then we're going to have to not use the feat. If you want though since comics are the strongest terminators we can just leave the other EU portions out because the other parts EU universe gives the T-800s and T-850s capabilities closer to the movies so we can just use them there.

 

[XING06]

Yeah I just found a mythbusters episode stating that gasoline explosions are up to 10 times weaker than dynamite explosions which are 1.25x stronger than TNT explosions. Like I said they also found that most damage from the gasoline explosion is due to fire damage. So yeah we need to find the semi-trailers volume and then calculate based off of that. It could be 8-C because of the volume of the truck so we should check. If it is 8-C though we have to either give it 9-A vs piercing/cutting or specify piercing/cutting weakness.

 

[MJF6219]

Yea the comic version should be just on its own away from the rest of the EU because like you said the comics and the novels contradict each other since the terminators from the comics have shown to be quite EMP resistant.

 

[XING06]

Sounds good to me; what do you think about the movie T-800 tier though? 9A or 8C? T-850 I could believe as 8C but i'm having a little trouble believing that for T-800.

 

[MJF6219]

I would say 9-A but if the gas truck explosion is 8-C than 8-C would be reasonable.

 

[MJF6219]

And to be fair DarkDragonMedeus has a good point as in the gas truck explosion only blew the terminators flesh off, so it didn't really damage him.

 

[Antvasima]

So, have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Legion350]

I agree with 9-A terminator.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[MJF6219]

Yea I agree with 9-A movie T-800 and High 8-C+ for comic T-800 for now (until that power grid feat gets calc'd).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I guess I'm alright with 9-A movie T-800, but maybe it could be phrased as "At least 9-A considering he generally shows to be nearly invulnerable to various 9-A attacks. I think the others agreed to have the T-850 from T3 and T5 to be 8-C also?

 

[Legion350]

What 8-C feats does Terminator have?

 

[MJF6219]

Wasn't the terminator from T5 a T-800?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I recall @Matthew Schroeder mentioning on another thread that 8-C durability is the true reguirement for a character to be bullet proof. It's also questionable whether or not the Semi-truck explosion is 9-A or 8-C, T-800 was still undamaged by it. Oh wait, T-800 also fought the T-1000000; who should be at least 8-C via sheer size. Came from the Universal Studios attraction, but that's surprisingly also considered part of the primary canon. I almost forgot all about that.

 

[Legion350]

Do you have proof that an attraction can be considered canon?

 

[MJF6219]

It makes sense that it would take 8-C durability to be completely bulletproof to most calibers since on one of the calcs I was one it stated to be completely bulletproof to higher calibers like a 50cal requires borderline city block level durability and seeing how 50cals were what was killing T-800s in T5, 8-C durability actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[MJF6219]

But then again those 50cals were one shotting the terminators with ease and the KE of 50cals are wall level+ at best so it all seems kinda contradictory.

 

[Legion350]

Can you show me the calc that states you need to be building level to be bulletproof?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I linked a page about the Terminator multiverse's canonicity above. It's listed as a first class canon due to both Arnold Schwarzenegger involvement and the fact that it was directed by James Cameron. Anyway, here's the page again.

Edit: as for the required durability to be bullet proof, I actually don't no the details tbd, but I'd ask @Matthew Schroeder about that.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that we can scale from an attraction feature.

 

[XING06]

Wait so are we all agreed on 9-A for T-800, possibly 8-C for T-850, and 8-B? for T-800 comics?

 

[Legion350]

8-C hasn't been agreed on yet.

 

[XING06]

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.