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Tenma Yato vs The Star Maker
- Thread starter BleedingPeach
- Start date
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^Tony di bugalu said:
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I want to know why is this considered a stomp in favor of Yato? His law is marvelous indeed, but why you think The Maker isn't able to defeat him?
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It's because Star Maker is not on Yato's level of transcendence.
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You know what? I could argue more about how high the Star Maker is, but I'm not going to, because I know for a fact neither side will ever concede and these matches will go nowhere.
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The thing about Trascendence is you are or you are not trascendant. For example: Yato is trascendental and has a very high AP but Hajun has muuuuch more AP but isn't more trascendant than Yato. Both are trascendantal and yet Trascendence isn't measured in levels.
Yato's law allows him to stop "time", but the thing is that for The Maker eight thousand years are just an instant. Yato could stop time in a way that everything bellow the Throne could be stopped (maybe above too sans Hajun). The Maker isn't even bounded by dualities (likely cause and effect) and all its hax are more likely abstract. For something that could create dimensionless cosmosses, control math, the effect of laws and all these cosmosses didn't reach an end... they just keep "existing".
Maybe this is really a stomp but for The Maker in this case.
Yato's law allows him to stop "time", but the thing is that for The Maker eight thousand years are just an instant. Yato could stop time in a way that everything bellow the Throne could be stopped (maybe above too sans Hajun). The Maker isn't even bounded by dualities (likely cause and effect) and all its hax are more likely abstract. For something that could create dimensionless cosmosses, control math, the effect of laws and all these cosmosses didn't reach an end... they just keep "existing".
Maybe this is really a stomp but for The Maker in this case.
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That's not how 1-A works.BleedingPeach said:
All 1-A fights come down to is the characters respective level of transcendence above a baseline 1-A place/object/being/et cetera.
Yato has 100 levels of transcendence, while Star Maker has only a handful. This is a stomp for Yato.
Please learn how these matchups work.
The difference between a level of transcendence is conceptually the same difference that is between a 2-D drawing and a 3-D person, just on an incomprehensibly larger scale.
There is nothing the 2-D drawing can do to the 3-D person. And thus, the 3-D person effortlessly stomps the 2-D drawing in a fight.
The same thing is happening with Yato and Star Maker in this case.
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Please do. I've asked for proof and a rebuttal since the Reinhard match.ZacharyGrossman273 said:
If you argument is right, then I would have to concede to it. I'm not a toddler, I can admit that I'm wrong if I'm clearly wrong.
Accuracy and logic are what needs to be applied here. So if you have the logical argument, then say it.
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- #51
If the story didn't use the word "trandual" and the being is above even dimensions, causality, concepts and such, that should be considered transdual.
"Perhaps the ultimate flower is also the primal seed from which all sprang. Perhaps the final result of the cosmical process is the attainment of full cosmical consciousness, and yet (in some very queer way) what is attained in the end is also, from another point of view, the origin of all things. So to speak, God, who created all things in the beginning, is himself created by all things in the end." (Extracted from here)
"Perhaps the ultimate flower is also the primal seed from which all sprang. Perhaps the final result of the cosmical process is the attainment of full cosmical consciousness, and yet (in some very queer way) what is attained in the end is also, from another point of view, the origin of all things. So to speak, God, who created all things in the beginning, is himself created by all things in the end." (Extracted from here)
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What does any of this have anything to do with what I wrote?BleedingPeach said:
No one is arguing whether Star Maker is 1-A or not. He (It?) definitely is 1-A.
What is being argued is the level of 1-A that Star Maker exists at.
Anyway, I am going to sleep.
Goodnight @everyone.
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You asked for proofs about trascendence, I was just quoting the text.Warren Valion said:
Trascendence is about breaking the boundaries of duality. Yato and The Maker did that.
About the power level... well, something that could make infinite cosmoses and be adimensional, have infinite plurality, omnipresnt beings and could fuse those cosmoses (which are outerversal structures) isn't even close to baseline. Later that thing made a cosmos that had all the qualities of the other cosmoses and much more, then it fused with that thing and for that infite amount of cosmoses The Maker "considered" finite.
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Oh, and Warren... good night. I hope that you sleep well. Sorry that I forgot to greet you.
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@BleedingPeach
There seems to be a glaring misconception regarding what we mean with trancendence and what you mean. First thing first, trancending the concepts of spational Dimensions is regarded baseline, the weakest form of 1A. Trancending a being on that level is considered one level above baseline. This can be repeated ad infinitum.
But what does it entail to trancend someone? It entails being so vastly above it and every concept on that level. Lets take Shinzas Taikyoku for example: A god can have litteraly infinite power, infinitly raising, being above all concepts and shit. As long as his value is lower then his opponent, hes still lesser then an ant to the god of higher Taikyoku, he may not even exist for him.
Yato does that with the baseline whooping 100 times.
So why do i and many other believe that Star Maker cant compete with that, despite creating infinite cosmoses who are all outerversal structures, even stating that they are greater than the last? Its simple. Because the cosmoses dont trancend each other. The higher one is not absolutly beyond the lower one. Statements like greater can mean bigger, stronger, faster, more beautiful, better. But trying to read infinitly more complex, greater or on a totaly different plane of existence out of it? See what the problem is? Its all sematics, but language has its meaning and if the author dosnt use terms like this to make such an difference between each cosmos clear, why should we do that for him?
Even the argument "less comprehensible" dosnt mean much, when we have descriptions from the Mythos, describing how the beings of an higher plane litteraly break your mind because they are so unfathomably higher and complex than anything you ever saw. Or how witches of a lower layer cant even perceive witches of an higher layer.
Again, everything i said can be found in the storys of each verses. Each verse described the difference in height and existence. What i and many other people who dont believe in that obscene strong Star Maker wants, are proofs of why we should accept the Star Maker as that strong in the first place.
There seems to be a glaring misconception regarding what we mean with trancendence and what you mean. First thing first, trancending the concepts of spational Dimensions is regarded baseline, the weakest form of 1A. Trancending a being on that level is considered one level above baseline. This can be repeated ad infinitum.
But what does it entail to trancend someone? It entails being so vastly above it and every concept on that level. Lets take Shinzas Taikyoku for example: A god can have litteraly infinite power, infinitly raising, being above all concepts and shit. As long as his value is lower then his opponent, hes still lesser then an ant to the god of higher Taikyoku, he may not even exist for him.
Yato does that with the baseline whooping 100 times.
So why do i and many other believe that Star Maker cant compete with that, despite creating infinite cosmoses who are all outerversal structures, even stating that they are greater than the last? Its simple. Because the cosmoses dont trancend each other. The higher one is not absolutly beyond the lower one. Statements like greater can mean bigger, stronger, faster, more beautiful, better. But trying to read infinitly more complex, greater or on a totaly different plane of existence out of it? See what the problem is? Its all sematics, but language has its meaning and if the author dosnt use terms like this to make such an difference between each cosmos clear, why should we do that for him?
Even the argument "less comprehensible" dosnt mean much, when we have descriptions from the Mythos, describing how the beings of an higher plane litteraly break your mind because they are so unfathomably higher and complex than anything you ever saw. Or how witches of a lower layer cant even perceive witches of an higher layer.
Again, everything i said can be found in the storys of each verses. Each verse described the difference in height and existence. What i and many other people who dont believe in that obscene strong Star Maker wants, are proofs of why we should accept the Star Maker as that strong in the first place.
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"This extravagant metaphor fails to express the subtlety and complexity of the ultimate cosmos. I felt gradually forced to believe that the relationship of this cosmos with each of the previous ones resembled that of our own cosmos with that of a human being, or a single physical atom. All the cosmos that I had observed until then did not seem to me now but an example of a class composed of myriads of individuals, as a biological species, or the class of all the atoms of an element. The inner life of each "atomic" cosmos apparently had the same kind of relationship (and the same kind of lack of relationship) with the life of the ultimate cosmos as those events that occur inside a brain cell, or in one of its atoms, with the life of a human mind. Nevertheless, and in spite of this enormous discrepancy, I thought I felt in all this vertiginous hierarchy of creations a surprising identity of spirit. In this final act the goal was to unite the community to the creative and lucid mind."
Well... like I said: trascends dimensions? Yes. Trascends concepts? Yes Trascends duality? Yes
Complexity you could say that the term refers to "more trascending". Like I said before, I don't think that you are more trascending but more powerful than your opponent. Again, you're trascendental or you are not.
For example in this thread, didn't discuss the trascendence of both. Yet ninety degrees of trascendence seems to break Bern. [...] "Reinhard seems to have won this match fair and square based on the "several qualitative degrees of 1-A power above Bern" explanation.", said Monarch Laciel. Maybe Umineko isn't that powerful compared to Masada, but that statement would be ignorant and like I said about trascendence: you are or you are not. (Sorry, that I bring this thread Warren, no taunting you or wanting to "fight", just to prove a point of mine)
Well... like I said: trascends dimensions? Yes. Trascends concepts? Yes Trascends duality? Yes
Complexity you could say that the term refers to "more trascending". Like I said before, I don't think that you are more trascending but more powerful than your opponent. Again, you're trascendental or you are not.
For example in this thread, didn't discuss the trascendence of both. Yet ninety degrees of trascendence seems to break Bern. [...] "Reinhard seems to have won this match fair and square based on the "several qualitative degrees of 1-A power above Bern" explanation.", said Monarch Laciel. Maybe Umineko isn't that powerful compared to Masada, but that statement would be ignorant and like I said about trascendence: you are or you are not. (Sorry, that I bring this thread Warren, no taunting you or wanting to "fight", just to prove a point of mine)
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I need context for that excerpt Peach. Because that on its own proofs my point. The Cosmoses dosnt trancend each other, only the ultimate Cosmos does, disproving infinite trancendence Star Maker.
Well... like I said: trascends dimensions? Yes. Trascends concepts? Yes Trascends duality? Yes
Again, not the point. Nearly every 1A character does that, Yato does that a 100 times more.
Complexity you could say that the term refers to "more trascending". Like I said before, I don't think that you are more trascending but more powerful than your opponent. Again, you're trascendental or you are not.
What you think =/= what happens in fiction. If you exist on a plane higher then your opponent, you trancend him. Clear cut, there is no discussion. You are so far above him that hes less then a atom to you, hes at best a drawing, a figure in a story, hes litteraly nothing to you. This is what Yato does with a baseline being 100 times. As you can see, this is not a mere question of power, this is the difference in existence. You could make the analog to dimensions. In this wiki, a 4 dimensional being could not even hope to beat a 5 dimensional one (There are exceptions because fiction, but you get the point). Yato would be a 100 Dimensional to a 1 Dimensional. And considering that the difference between dimensions is more then infinite and you should understand what the Star Maker needs to overcome.
For example in this thread, didn't discuss the trascendence of both. Yet ninety degrees of trascendence seems to break Bern. [...] "Reinhard seems to have won this match fair and square based on the "several qualitative degrees of 1-A power above Bern" explanation.", said Monarch Laciel. Maybe Umineko isn't that powerful compared to Masada, but that statement would be ignorant and like I said about trascendence: you are or you are not. (Sorry, that I bring this thread Warren, no taunting you or wanting to "fight", just to prove a point of mine)
Congratiolations, you brought a thread more then a year old to this debate. People can change their mind you know. And what? "Didnt discuss trancendence" but you quote Monarch saying that Rein wins because of his "several qualitative degrees of 1A power above Bern", witch is flowery language for Reinhard trancends Bern several times?
Well... like I said: trascends dimensions? Yes. Trascends concepts? Yes Trascends duality? Yes
Again, not the point. Nearly every 1A character does that, Yato does that a 100 times more.
Complexity you could say that the term refers to "more trascending". Like I said before, I don't think that you are more trascending but more powerful than your opponent. Again, you're trascendental or you are not.
What you think =/= what happens in fiction. If you exist on a plane higher then your opponent, you trancend him. Clear cut, there is no discussion. You are so far above him that hes less then a atom to you, hes at best a drawing, a figure in a story, hes litteraly nothing to you. This is what Yato does with a baseline being 100 times. As you can see, this is not a mere question of power, this is the difference in existence. You could make the analog to dimensions. In this wiki, a 4 dimensional being could not even hope to beat a 5 dimensional one (There are exceptions because fiction, but you get the point). Yato would be a 100 Dimensional to a 1 Dimensional. And considering that the difference between dimensions is more then infinite and you should understand what the Star Maker needs to overcome.
For example in this thread, didn't discuss the trascendence of both. Yet ninety degrees of trascendence seems to break Bern. [...] "Reinhard seems to have won this match fair and square based on the "several qualitative degrees of 1-A power above Bern" explanation.", said Monarch Laciel. Maybe Umineko isn't that powerful compared to Masada, but that statement would be ignorant and like I said about trascendence: you are or you are not. (Sorry, that I bring this thread Warren, no taunting you or wanting to "fight", just to prove a point of mine)
Congratiolations, you brought a thread more then a year old to this debate. People can change their mind you know. And what? "Didnt discuss trancendence" but you quote Monarch saying that Rein wins because of his "several qualitative degrees of 1A power above Bern", witch is flowery language for Reinhard trancends Bern several times?
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"Transduality is defined as "transcendence in relation to duality". If we consider reality as a binary code, where the state of being is 1, and the state of non-being is 0, then a trans-dualistic being does not fit into the code itself (it can be either a code that is different from 1 and 0, or simply the lack of 1 and 0), remaining outside the realm of duality. Beyond being and non-being, regardless of yin and yang, outside of all forms of binary logic and is independent of them. Nondual/Transdual characters are usually characterized as very powerful transcendental and abstract meta-cosmic entities." This is how our page defines transdualism, I know that Bern could break Reinhard, but if that's the case then both of them seems to be transdual and the topic was assumed to be common sense in that match. Again, you are trascendental or you are not. There aren't varying degrees of trascendence and the Taikyoku seems like it can make one trascendental and the greater amount of Taikyoku determines the amount of authority the law would have.
"In the beginning the Star Maker conceived in the depths of his own being
something that was neither mental nor material, but of abundant potential, full of
Suggestions and stimuli for the creative imagination. The Maker Meditated Long Time
on this delicate substance: a medium in which unity and multiplicity depended
very subtly one from another, in which all the parts and all the characters invaded the
Other parts and characters and were invaded by them.
have influence on all other things. However, the whole was no more than the
The sum of all the parts. It was a substance
cosmic in which every individual spirit must be, mysteriously, at the same time a being
absolute and a mere fiction of the whole.
The star-maker gave this extremely subtle medium the general form of a
cosmos, with a space-time still indeterminate and alien to geometry: an entity
Amorphous physics without qualities or directions, without intricate physical laws; a life stress
More distinctly conceived and an epic adventure of the mind, a climax
Surprisingly defined and a peak of spiritual lucidity. The latter, although it occupied
in cosmic time a position that we might call late, was designed with some
precision in the sequence of creative work before any other factor in the cosmos. Y
I realized that this was so because the initial substance had clearly manifested its
Own ability to acquire this spiritual form. For this same reason the maker of
Stars do not pay attention at first to the physical minutiae of his work, neglecting
also the first stages of cosmic history, and dedicating ourselves almost exclusively
to model the spiritual climax of the creature.
Only after having built in its interior the indisputably more awake phase
of the cosmic spirit, the Maker outlined the various psychological tendencies that it leads to that spirit in cosmological time. Only after having drawn the incredibly diverse themes of mental growth presto the true Maker attention to the layout of the biological evolution and the physical and geometric complexity more possible to evoke the subtle potentialities of the cosmic spirit even just roughened but, while ordering the geometric shapes, we also returned to when and when.
Modify and elucidate the spiritual climax. Only when I had almost completed the forms
physical and geometric aspects of the cosmos will be given to the spiritual climax a full individuality and
concrete while the Star Maker was still working on the details of individual lives,
Countless and restless, of the fortune of men, of ichthyids, of the arachnoides and the rest, convinced me of the attitude of Maker towards his creatures. very different from what I had known in all the other cosmos. For the Maker does not he was now neither cold with them nor simply in love with them. He still loved them, by the way, but he had left behind, apparently, all desire to save them from the consequences of finitude and the cruel impact of the environment. I loved them without mercy. Well I knew that finitude, the minimal peculiarities, the tortured balance between clumsiness and lucidity were precisely the distinctive virtue of these creatures, and that avoiding all this was annihilating them." (please, if there is a part that isn't well translated tell me, I have to use the Google Translation since spanish is my native language)
"In the beginning the Star Maker conceived in the depths of his own being
something that was neither mental nor material, but of abundant potential, full of
Suggestions and stimuli for the creative imagination. The Maker Meditated Long Time
on this delicate substance: a medium in which unity and multiplicity depended
very subtly one from another, in which all the parts and all the characters invaded the
Other parts and characters and were invaded by them.
have influence on all other things. However, the whole was no more than the
The sum of all the parts. It was a substance
cosmic in which every individual spirit must be, mysteriously, at the same time a being
absolute and a mere fiction of the whole.
The star-maker gave this extremely subtle medium the general form of a
cosmos, with a space-time still indeterminate and alien to geometry: an entity
Amorphous physics without qualities or directions, without intricate physical laws; a life stress
More distinctly conceived and an epic adventure of the mind, a climax
Surprisingly defined and a peak of spiritual lucidity. The latter, although it occupied
in cosmic time a position that we might call late, was designed with some
precision in the sequence of creative work before any other factor in the cosmos. Y
I realized that this was so because the initial substance had clearly manifested its
Own ability to acquire this spiritual form. For this same reason the maker of
Stars do not pay attention at first to the physical minutiae of his work, neglecting
also the first stages of cosmic history, and dedicating ourselves almost exclusively
to model the spiritual climax of the creature.
Only after having built in its interior the indisputably more awake phase
of the cosmic spirit, the Maker outlined the various psychological tendencies that it leads to that spirit in cosmological time. Only after having drawn the incredibly diverse themes of mental growth presto the true Maker attention to the layout of the biological evolution and the physical and geometric complexity more possible to evoke the subtle potentialities of the cosmic spirit even just roughened but, while ordering the geometric shapes, we also returned to when and when.
Modify and elucidate the spiritual climax. Only when I had almost completed the forms
physical and geometric aspects of the cosmos will be given to the spiritual climax a full individuality and
concrete while the Star Maker was still working on the details of individual lives,
Countless and restless, of the fortune of men, of ichthyids, of the arachnoides and the rest, convinced me of the attitude of Maker towards his creatures. very different from what I had known in all the other cosmos. For the Maker does not he was now neither cold with them nor simply in love with them. He still loved them, by the way, but he had left behind, apparently, all desire to save them from the consequences of finitude and the cruel impact of the environment. I loved them without mercy. Well I knew that finitude, the minimal peculiarities, the tortured balance between clumsiness and lucidity were precisely the distinctive virtue of these creatures, and that avoiding all this was annihilating them." (please, if there is a part that isn't well translated tell me, I have to use the Google Translation since spanish is my native language)
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Al fin encuentro a alguien más que hable español, que bien :v
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No borres el comentario, Tony. Siempre es grato escuchar (no, sera "leer"?) a alguien que habla su idioma natal 
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Exactamente, no tienes idea de lo feliz que me pongo cuando encuentro a más personas que hablan español.BleedingPeach said:No borres el comentario, Tony. Siempre es grato escuchar (no, sera "leer"?) a alguien que habla su idioma natal
Estaba pensando que ser├¡a mejor discutir todo el tema de la trascendencia y como afecta a los personajes de nivel 1-A. A mi parecer no comprendes del todo lo que First Witch y Warren the han explicando (claro, si no te molesta) pero de preferencia en tu muro porqué aqu├¡ nos desviaremos del tema actual.
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""Transduality is defined as "transcendence in relation to duality". If we consider reality as a binary code, where the state of being is 1, and the state of non-being is 0, then a trans-dualistic being does not fit into the code itself (it can be either a code that is different from 1 and 0, or simply the lack of 1 and 0), remaining outside the realm of duality. Beyond being and non-being, regardless of yin and yang, outside of all forms of binary logic and is independent of them. Nondual/Transdual characters are usually characterized as very powerful transcendental and abstract meta-cosmic entities." This is how our page defines transdualism, I know that Bern could break Reinhard, but if that's the case then both of them seems to be transdual and the topic was assumed to be common sense in that match. Again, you are trascendental or you are not. There aren't varying degrees of trascendence and the Taikyoku seems like it can make one trascendental and the greater amount of Taikyoku determines the amount of authority the law would have."
Ignoring my dimensional analogy, ignoring my explanation to why Taikyoku is akin to trancendence and quoting me something that has absolutly no bearing on the entire debate. I will explain it another time.
Imagine a ladder. Its infinite in steps and each steps is more than infnitly greater, complexer, higher and inaccisble then the last. Each layer contains everything, from miniscule universes, to transdimensional realms of varying sizes, to all concepts. Outerversal layer. Now is the catch. The lower layer is unsignificant to the higher layer. Its unfathomable insignificant to the higher layer, to the point where you could say it dosnt exist for the higher layer, far greater then the difference between single dimensions ever could be. Climbing up a single layer means trancending everything in the lower layer. A being on the lower layer cant fathom you, it cant touch you, it cant harm you, it basically dosnt exist for you. You are a higher existence. Do you know what it means? TRANCENDING. You trancended the lower being and everything on the same level, you are a being far higher than anything on that lower layer.
Yato did that with 100 Layers. Yato isnt just 100 times more powerfull then the basic 1A being. Each Taikyoku makes him a higher existence to the lower one. And you might intepret how Taikyoku affects beings, but the aftermath is still clear cut.
Again, this match is over an year old. How 1A was perceived, how Umineko was perceived, how Taikyoku was perceived changed. Bringing up old stuff like that is like me trying to debunk our solarcentered solarsystem, because people from thousands of year ago believed that everything revolved around the earth.
Ignoring my dimensional analogy, ignoring my explanation to why Taikyoku is akin to trancendence and quoting me something that has absolutly no bearing on the entire debate. I will explain it another time.
Imagine a ladder. Its infinite in steps and each steps is more than infnitly greater, complexer, higher and inaccisble then the last. Each layer contains everything, from miniscule universes, to transdimensional realms of varying sizes, to all concepts. Outerversal layer. Now is the catch. The lower layer is unsignificant to the higher layer. Its unfathomable insignificant to the higher layer, to the point where you could say it dosnt exist for the higher layer, far greater then the difference between single dimensions ever could be. Climbing up a single layer means trancending everything in the lower layer. A being on the lower layer cant fathom you, it cant touch you, it cant harm you, it basically dosnt exist for you. You are a higher existence. Do you know what it means? TRANCENDING. You trancended the lower being and everything on the same level, you are a being far higher than anything on that lower layer.
Yato did that with 100 Layers. Yato isnt just 100 times more powerfull then the basic 1A being. Each Taikyoku makes him a higher existence to the lower one. And you might intepret how Taikyoku affects beings, but the aftermath is still clear cut.
Again, this match is over an year old. How 1A was perceived, how Umineko was perceived, how Taikyoku was perceived changed. Bringing up old stuff like that is like me trying to debunk our solarcentered solarsystem, because people from thousands of year ago believed that everything revolved around the earth.
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@Witch
Im going to talk with Peach in our native language and explain everything to him so maybe it would be best if this is put on hold.
Im going to talk with Peach in our native language and explain everything to him so maybe it would be best if this is put on hold.
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Oh, @First Witch, I'm sorry that I didn't respond to your dimensionality matter. I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable with the absence of an answer... it was never my intention.
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The Star Maker fra
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What reasons tho.
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I don't think there has been real clarification from Matt and Azzy who are experts as to how high the Star Maker is, actually.
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The thing was very confusing since in this thread people thought about being "at least" in its 1-A. The only case was Shub Niggurath but there wasn't specifications for that "tier" so it was """downgraded""".
EDIT: I was talking about Shub in the "downgrade" matter
EDIT: I was talking about Shub in the "downgrade" matter
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Until Azzathoth revisions are done (about The Maker), what should be done?
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I'm sorry but I didn't find anything regarding the revision Zachary said that Azzathoth was going to make. Also, I'm sorry but the whole argument regarding the stairs isn't a valid argument in this case. I understood when I re-re-read The Star Maker (novel) that the Type 5 Immortality is accurate: the times it was ""hurt"" was because it did that to itself; literally there's nothing that The Maker is. Even if Yato could stop time, the Omnipresence in the Creative Mode could not work against the same, but the Ultimate Spirit is literally every moment even the atemporal ones. The Maker could be transdualism, concepts, Taikyoku or even Yato. I understand that his power is actually very, very, very, very, very, very high but I don't bring a Suggsverse argument here. When you read the novel you start to understand the things I'm saying, since the profile is well done but the fiction itself is awesome and you understand much more said profile.
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Sorry to necro this, but can this thread be closed? It's been inactive for a while and since I am the OP, I cannot say who wins or not. Besides... TSM (The Star Maker) isn't a little bit popular so won't be used in any fights.
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Ummmmmmm... bump for the closure
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Just let it die, no need to bump it.
Or call an admin.
Or call an admin.
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Pero gallego... I've made this thread in base of anger and fear. I don't see why should I let this open.
EDIT: perdon, no se si sos de Galicia
EDIT: perdon, no se si sos de Galicia
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Because nobody wants to comment, it was dead till you commented.
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Checked Vote count?
