Team Fortress 2: Canon Panic

[The_Impress]

For the record I have been sorta aware another CRT for TF2 is going on, but it looks like derailed garbage, so I'll just do my revisions separate, it's kinda unrelated anyways.

This is a claim I've seen some members repeat which got me thinking, TF2, the game, has been stated to be a fiction-in-fiction documentary, which gives its supporters the argument that many stats and P&A related mechanics, such as certain feats and hax, are actually non-canon to the original continuity.

In in of itself? This logic is fine, but you have to note, the game makes up a SIGNIFICANT PORTION of the canon, and is definitely notable, so this implies Team Fortress 2 as a verse, is split between two canons, the game canon, and the comics canon, latter also including all the animated shorts a la Meet the Director, and PARTS of the game (basically the core plotline, this IS a documentary afterall), and files should be updated accordingly.

To address a few complaints against separate files:

• We have actually listed fiction-in-fiction files in the past very commonly, as long as they make up a notably significant part of the verse, Wade Watts and White Face come to mind notably. So by precedent that point shouldn't stop game files from being made.
• A point I also got, was that Team Fortress 2 the game, doesn't have "plot", which isn't entirely accurate, it isn't focusless jargon like GMod or anything, it does have a BASIC outline, all that is needed for getting files, considering we have verses like PUBG, Counter Strike, Among Us and Minecraftexistent on the wiki.
  • I was also told that the above policy was either/or, which is just... not true, there is no relevant connection between the two policies and you're essentially making this rule up.
• This distinction was being used to dismiss statistical inconsistencies between the comics and the games, so the argument that "they're not distinct enough" would be backtracking your statements.
• "Game is an accurate documentation of the real events" is also backtrack your statements, the entire reason they're being dismissed, is that they're being argued to not be the same.

NOTE: This thread isn't really about... the 9-A stats, or any other topic, so if you attempt to derail this thread, I'll be gladly handing out threadbans. I want this thread to end, people, before the heat death of the universe.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I agree with this

 

[The_Impress]

For the record don't bring up Overwatch since that verse was being maintained the same supporter group, two verses can have the same problem at the same time :v

 

[DragonLord]

Overwatch wouldn’t be a accurate comparison ether since iirc it’s explained as more “what if” aka it’s something that didn’t happen but could/could’ve happen. Not In-Universe fiction

I suppose this should be fine though probably with a note explaining this on the profile

 

[The_Impress]

Sure :v

 

[Confluctor]

Surprised this wasn't done already. Agreed

 

[Overlord775]

So like, Game canon would include seasonal events, non-starting weapons and stuff like that while the comic canon wouldn't ?

 

[Livinmeme]

I disagree with it specially when is taked out of context

1. in the demoman vs soldiers the results was bassed on gameplay so the lore of the game and the comic is connected to some extent
2. extremlly OOC for the director to do that. Not only he prefers not exagerated things when the games is far less logic than the gameplay but a guy who doesnt like that type of things is directing it?
3. We dont know what parts are dramatized specially when the director dies at the end

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, this sounds about right. The comics do have things not included in the primary game all the time. Though, the trailers are legit advertisements for the game. But the game as a hole doesn't really have a plot.

 

[The_Impress]

1. Meta-perspective being equated to a canon event, irrelevant.

2. Relevance???

3. Relevance???

 

[The_Impress]

So like, Game canon would include seasonal events, non-starting weapons and stuff like that while the comic canon wouldn't ?

Likely... basically anything the comic directly refer to, in the games, are canon to it.

 

[Livinmeme]

no?

1. the game actions have correlation with the comics like soldier winning the war bassed on the game kills. also the Game conclusions happened first than the comics so how a dramatized even happens first than the actual result
2 and 3: How is that irrelevant you are bassing this in a box on text that only says "dramatized" wich we dont know what parts of the game are dramatized

 

[Livinmeme]

I dont think anyone is hearing my arguments and instead jump to conclussions but if this get accepted i have the perfect excuses to downgrade several verses so meh

 

[Livinmeme]

Also dramatized doesnt mean the same as having diferent canon

 

[The_Impress]

no?

1. the game actions have correlation with the comics like soldier winning the war bassed on the game kills

Refer to my prior point.

2 and 3: How is that irrelevant you are bassing this in a box on text that only says "dramatized" wich we dont know what parts of the game are dramatized

...Why are you bringing up the director, he very blatantly only did the Meet the Team series.

I dont think anyone is hearing my arguments and instead jump to conclussions but if this get accepted i have the perfect excuses to downgrade several verses so meh

Derailment. First and last warning, remain objective. Also don't multipost dummi

 

[The_Impress]

Also dramatized doesnt mean the same as having diferent canon

This is such a laughably poor understanding of the OP btw, like, did you read shit from it, even?

 

[Livinmeme]

no?

1. the game actions have correlation with the comics like soldier winning the war bassed on the game kills

How is that meta perspective. The effects on the gameplay have effects on the canon like seriously how is that meta anyways

...Why are you bringing up the director, he very blatantly only did the Meet the Team series.

The point it was that a little box of "dramatized events" cant say that everything is fictional and you are assuming that everything in the game doesnt have importance wich is not. to vague and to little to say than they are diferent contiunity and i say they both compart the results of accions

Derailment. First and last warning, remain objective. Also don't multipost dummi

How is that derailment? I just say that everyone is agreeing without trying to debunk my arguments appart from me

 

[Livinmeme]

This is such a laughably poor understanding of the OP btw, like, did you read shit from it, even?

Yeah i did and i considered the thing as to vague to say and to little a boy saying "dramatized events" cant just put to correlated things into diferent contiunity also the sniper getting harmed after the spy stabbed him show contiunity

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP

 

[Livinmeme]

Like seriously can someone tries to argue with me instead of ignoring me and pretending that i dont exist? And no this isnt derailing this is a direct action made by the people in the thread 2 diferent things specially when is extremlly related to the thread

 

[Livinmeme]

Oh also by your logic the Comic contiunity is canon to the game but the game contiunity is not canon to the game like how the manga is canon to Toei verse and how toei isnt canon to the manga

 

[The_Impress]

How is that meta perspective. The effects on the gameplay have effects on the canon like seriously how is that meta anyways

...because it isn't what can happen, it's just game event shit adapted from canonical events.

This is like saying Battlefield affected the results of the World War.

The point it was that a little box of "dramatized events" cant say that everything is fictional and you are assuming that everything in the game doesnt have importance

I didn't say this btw, read the OP.

"wich is not. to vague and to little to say than they are diferent contiunity and i say they both compart the results of accions"
If it's possible make sure to improve your grammar and wording btw, I'm having to reread your arguments multiple times.

How is that derailment? I just say that everyone is agreeing without trying to debunk my arguments appart from me

Can you note that I am responding to you? Either you're derailing, are impatient, or are lying.

All three, if you can notice, are terrible qualities I want you to stop. Or you get threadbanned, take your pick.

Yeah i did and i considered the thing as to vague to say and to little a boy saying "dramatized events" cant just put to correlated things into diferent contiunity also the sniper getting harmed after the spy stabbed him show contiunity

..what part of the game is based on real events do you not understand?

Like seriously can someone tries to argue with me instead of ignoring me and pretending that i dont exist? And no this isnt derailing this is a direct action made by the people in the thread 2 diferent things specially when is extremlly related to the thread

I am threadbanning you for a day, learn patience until then, you're blatantly ignoring my warning you shouldn't multipost.

 

[The_Impress]

So for the record to avoid unfairness, this thread will not be resolved until Livinmeme's day long ban expires.

This is something he was already warned for in a prior thread by the way, by multiple admins and a BUREAUCRAT.

If this isn't derailment, it's impatience, if it isn't impatience, it's malice. This is a pick your poison type situation in every way.

And for the record this actually harms the staff members' claims for dismissing 9-A feats, it is something I don't even think any of the "eViL sTaFf MeMbEr CoNsPiRaCy" agreed to. You're literally harming chances of game feats being accepted here lol.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

So would this mean that the mercs would have seperate pages or keys for their game and comics versions?

 

[The_Impress]

Idk subject to discussion, thinking pages, but we can do keys too.

I just want the core concept accepted rn.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, the meet the mercs trailers appear to be more along the lines of the games. And not entirely sure about other videos. But this thread is to explain of the comics are a seperate canon from the games and other stuff can be explained later such as consistent feats.

And there are several problems with 9-A stuff, such as rockets having inconsistent blast radius. Also, if we're using gameplay exclusively for the game versions of TF2, there would still be other issues such as it still taking no more than 2 hits to kill any Merc. And even the 1st shot massively damages them in the 1st place. Cow Mangler is also just, it vaporizes people and it's a pure heat based weapon. No one scales blunt force durability at all regardless of canon separation.

But anyway, I do agree the topic is a core concept. I think it's reasonable to treat the games and the comics as separate canons. Meaning if one has more consistent feats than the other, the one that actually has the feats 9-A or above could actually be upgraded.

 

[The_Impress]

Also in regards to Livinmeme's point of game-comic interactions, note he can respond to this tomorrow

Y'all know how Battlefield can make it so in multiplayer matches, Axis can historically win matches they're not supposed to? And how in that one Civil War shooter on Steam (don't recall the exact name), you can deadass make Confederates and Unions win wars they historically lost?

Team Fortress 2 in-canon, is a historical wargame, so stuff like Soldier vs. Demoman and Heavy vs. Pyro, they can just be similar to above examples (note this would be the more in-line with real world examples), they're a representation of the actual events, with player choice (illusion of so in terms of in-verse conflict).

So you're the one actually ignoring context in these scenarios, these are just... literally how these types of "documentary games" work, Soldier vs. Demoman can very WELL just be a real-life event represented in a non-linear direction for the game, for the sake of gameplay.

 

[TheGatememer]

Just going to copy and paste this from the other TF2 thread.

Addressing the whole "dramatization" argument/canon stuff​

The quote being used to argue that gameplay is non-canon is from the Catch-Up Comic, where Saxton Hale says this:

"THE ENSUING LAND WAR HAS GONE ON FOR A HUNDRED AND TWENTY YEARS NOW - AS DRAMATIZED IN THE DOCUMENTARY VIDEO GAME TEAM FORTRESS 2!"

However, there are several issues with this. Starting with the fact that this entire comic is just supposed to be giant fourth wall break. The main point of this comic is to catch up the reader (aka us) on significant events that have happened in the TF story line. What further supports this is the fact that Mann Co. doesn't even make or sell video games. Were this an in universe comic, this would make absolutely no sense. Not to mention the very last page literally has Saxton Hale telling the reader to click to go to the next page. So this really just seems to be a nod to the game and reader, rather than Valve telling everyone "HEY THE GAME IS NON CANON BTW". either way its not like valve gives a sht about TF2 let alone its canon

Also, the word "dramatized" can have several definitions. Yes, it can mean exaggerating, but it can also just mean adapting an event into something, like a book or play. In this case, its a videogame. Not to mention, it is also supposed to be a "documentary video game", which means that its supposed to be, well documentary.

What I'm trying to say is that this sentence by itself can have numerous meanings, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it is exaggerating events in the TF2 storyline, but rather it can also mean documenting them by adapting it into a video game. Considering the fact that dramatized doesn't necessarily mean exaggeration, and the fact that its stated to be a documentary video game, even assuming that this is anything more than a simple 4th wall break, gameplay being exaggerated seems unlikely at best.

Perhaps one of the biggest things that shows dramatized =/= exaggeration in TF2 is that TF2 itself doesn't equate the two words; Quite the opposite actually. This is shown in the comic, "The Insult That Made A "Jarate Master" Out of Sniper". This is what is said in the comic:

"IT IS NOT COMPLICATED! How do I know? I am from AUSTRALIA! And the events dramatized in the comic above actually happened... TO ME! Remember that part between panels four and five? That was not time lapse magic! I kicked a chair across the room, and seconds later I knew Jarate! NOW YOU CAN TOO!"

This clearly shows that TF2 doesn't equate dramatized to exaggeration. It clearly shows in this comic, that despite it being called "dramatized", it actually happened. The comic goes into detail how it happened the same way it is portrayed in the comics, like when it says that the "time lapse" between panels four and five wasn't time lapse, but rather Sniper learning Jarate in a matter of seconds. This shows that even though it was described as being "dramatized", nothing in the comic was an exaggeration, and the events in the comics literally happened the same way the event unfolded.

Now, does this say anything about the Video Game TF2? No. But what it does show is that the word "dramatized" doesn't inherently mean exaggeration in TF2. Going by it's actual definitions, and how TF2 uses the word directly shows that their use of the word doesn't mean exaggeration.

Coupled with the fact that again, A. SFM (aka the TF2 videos) literally uses the same assets as TF2, so they literally use the same models and animations, and visible feats like explosions and what not are literally impossible to exaggerate there, B. The comics, as well as some other stuff confirming some in game stuff being canon (like Jarate making enemies take extra damage), C. An actual video recording from Expiration Date literally showing gameplay footage, even while assuming that the Catch-Up comic isn't just a fourth wall break, it shows that the game is supposed to be an accurate recreation of the events that happened in the TF2 Storyline. Hence why its called a "documentary" video game. And by accurate, I mean practically the same due to the previous reasons. (Not including game mechanics/glitches, obviously. Source Spaghet still haunts me to this day)

So unless there is solid proof that gameplay is exaggerated to the point of unusability, this line on its own means nothing when literally everything points the other direction, and that the word "dramatized" doesn't even inherently mean "exaggeration", going by both its actual definitions, and TF2 itself not equating the two, and even going as far as to say that a "dramatized event" happening the exact same way portrayed in the comic. So in short, we should just treat TF2 ingame stuff the same way we do for literally any other verse. Separating the two would not only be a hassle, but be utterly pointless if the gameplay is practically the same as the lore.

And while we are on the topic of canon, I'd figured I'd bring up community created stuff. Just because something is community created doesn't inherently mean its non-canon. Community created stuff has been shown to be canon, like the Huo Long Heater, a community-created weapon, which is shown in the comics. Like a VERY LARGE portion of the game is community created. (or the spycrab) That being said, it isn't to say EVERYTHING is canon, but I'm just saying that being community created isn't enough to warrant it being non-canon by itself. It should be a case-by-case basis.

 

[The_Impress]

For the record I don't mind inherently the notion the scan is invalid altogether :v

@Abstractions as one of the people in supporters of this claim, can you defend it from Rtx' post?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm still a bit lost on the details but I think I get the gist of it. Will read more into it at a later time.

 

[DaReaperMan]

For the record I am currently neutral leaning towards agree

 

[Abstractions]

@Abstractions as one of the people in supporters of this claim, can you defend it from Rtx' post?

I'll reply when I can.

 

[AKM sama]

I am threadbanning you for a day, learn patience until then, you're blatantly ignoring my warning you shouldn't multipost.

I agree with the one-day threadban. Hopefully, when Livinmeme comes back, he will learn to be patient. Over the course of two days I've seen him spamming the thread with multi-posting, derailing with unrelated nonsense and being passive aggressive. If he still keeps this up after coming back, you could probably report him in the RVRT.

 

[The_Impress]

Well we'll wait for Abstractions' response.

If anything this'll clarify the canon sitch once and for all

 

[Livinmeme]

Comed back after some some health problems

Bad grammar i know but i didnt feel very good while writing this

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I'd like to read that but please do fix it up first so we don't get confused with what you're trying to say.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Comed back after some some health problems

Bad grammar i know but i didnt feel very good while writing this

There's no reason to debate you directly if all the points the OP makes are points we would make ourselves.

She's saying all the things we agree with so there's no reason to debate you directly.

 

[TheGatememer]

No offense, but I don't quite understand what you are trying to say Livinmeme.

Anyways, like I said, even under the assumption that the game and lore (comics, movies etc) are "different", its completely redundant to separate them since they are portrayed practically the same way, ergo don't really have any major differences, since, well they are supposed to be the same events. It would be like giving Trunks from DB two different profiles for his "History of Trunks" version, and DBS flashback version. (Its the best comparison I can think of atm)

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

I feel like there isn't enough evidence for this since this is just a single line and the comic itself is a bit weird for the canon of the comics since Saxton would be talking about something from the future that he wouldn't have any knowledge about if it really was the same game we play then it'd be made in 2007 the date this comic takes place in is 1972 so that's a good 35 years from when he was supposed to know of its existence