Tatsuya Suou vs Makoto Yuki, Yu Narukami, and Ren Amamiya

[Ranzuki]

Can the Persona 3, 4, and 5 protagonists win against the Persona 2 protagonist?

 

[Dark_warrior_100]

Pls don't make threads with p2 characters, their profiles are outdated AF

 

[HST_Master]

All of them but Ren are outdated tbh

 

[Solacis]

To answer the OP: yes, absolutely.

But nevertheless, all of their profiles except Ren's are outdated, especially Tatsuya's. This match is invalid.

 

[Ranzuki]

To answer the OP: yes, absolutely.

But nevertheless, all of their profiles except Ren's are outdated, especially Tatsuya's. This match is invalid.

Tell me how? Also it's absolutely ridiculous to rely on profiles when we can do simple logic using in game story.
Take a look at this way, Tatsuya fought Philemon and beat Nyarlatothep. Nyarlatothep is equal to Philemon. Philemon is Igor's master, and Igor is Elizabeth's master and Elizabeth is stronger than most of the cast from the newer Persona games except possibly Makoto.

 

[DarkGrath]

Uhh... the idea that Elizabeth is stronger than most of the cast at their strongest is hardly founded. Elizabeth should be comparable to Margaret and Lavenza. Ren by the end of Persona 5 is almost certainly stronger than Igor due to defeating Yaldabaoth, and Makoto is the only character in the franchise to be directly compared to Nyx, who is quite possibly one of the strongest characters. The only one I'm not sure about is Narukami.

 

[Ranzuki]

Strongest compared to what? How is Nyx even comparable to the likes of Philemon and Nyarlathotep?

 

[DarkGrath]

Nyx created the Collective Unconsious, being far, far more powerful than the Collective Unconscious herself. The Collective Unconscious is where pretty much everything notable in the series cane from, from Personas, to Shadows, to everything of the sort. Logically speaking, if Nyx is far more powerful than the Collective Unconscious, and the Collective Unconscious is where all Personas and Shadows and everything of the sort was born, then that would place Nyx far beyond almost everything in the series. Makoto being close enough in power to Nyx to survive her attacks is an immense feat.

 

[Ranzuki]

And P1 cast defeated Nyx so that means P1 cast > everyone else?

 

[DarkGrath]

Nono, you are getting two entities vastly mixed up.

Nyx is both the name of the creator of the Collective Unconscious, and also a figure from Greek Mythology (though the former is still named after her, the games make a very clear distinction between the two).

The latter Nyx only exists as a physical personification of the mythological figure, born from the Collective Unconscious herself. That's who the Persona 1 cast fights.

The former is the one who created the Collective Unconscious, who Makoto fights.

The latter Nyx being born from the Collective Unconscious means she is nowhere near in power compared to the former Nyx, and Makoto is relatively comparable to the former Nyx.

TLR. There are two different beings named Nyx in the series. The one Makoto fights is different to, and ridiculously more powerful than the one the Persona 1 cast fought.

 

[Ranzuki]

Can you tell me where this whole Nyx created the Collective Unconscious come from? I did a little google search and all that came up was this thread.

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/minato-arisato-vs-tatsuya-suou.910113/

Basically someone saying it came from P3P fanbook but the posters from this forum tried debunking it because it directly contradicts everything that happened in the previous Persona games.

 

[DarkGrath]

On that thread, they did not even attempt to debunk it. They simply said it contradicts everything without any further evidence or clarification.

They also made the claim in that thread that Nyx never appears in her true form, and that there is "no evidence that the Golden Egg is Nyx" when it is literally directly shown in game to be the true form of Nyx's avatar.

They also refer to the Persona 1 Nyx being the same as the Persona 3 Nyx, which is already blatantly false.

And from the very beginning, the OP is clearly making it in an attempt to make it a spite match, calling Minato "the most overrated protagonist" and Tatsuya "the most badass protagonist".

I'm going to be blunt. The people on that thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They are a bunch of guys who are fans of Persona 1 and 2 over the rest of the series who purely want to spite the rest of the fanbase, and whom have demonstrated multiple times in a relatively short thread that they have no knowledge of the topics they are talking about.

They aren't a reliable source. And I seriously doubt that was the first result that popped up when searching it on google.

Either way though, as Solacis said, the Persona 1 and 2 profiles are incredibly outdated. Regardless of the results in this match, it's better to wait for revisions than make Vs Threads straight away.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Tatsuya's bio is super outdated and old. He has a lot more hax and abilities than what the page presents.

But yeah, uh, I think some other mods were originally gonna do something about their profiles but idk what happened so eh. Invalid match for now.

 

[Ranzuki]

On that thread, they did not even attempt to debunk it. They simply said it contradicts everything without any further evidence or clarification.

They also made the claim in that thread that Nyx never appears in her true form, and that there is "no evidence that the Golden Egg is Nyx" when it is literally directly shown in game to be the true form of Nyx's avatar.

They also refer to the Persona 1 Nyx being the same as the Persona 3 Nyx, which is already blatantly false.

And from the very beginning, the OP is clearly making it in an attempt to make it a spite match, calling Minato "the most overrated protagonist" and Tatsuya "the most badass protagonist".

I'm going to be blunt. The people on that thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They are a bunch of guys who are fans of Persona 1 and 2 over the rest of the series who purely want to spite the rest of the fanbase, and whom have demonstrated multiple times in a relatively short thread that they have no knowledge of the topics they are talking about.

They aren't a reliable source. And I seriously doubt that was the first result that popped up when searching it on google.

Either way though, as Solacis said, the Persona 1 and 2 profiles are incredibly outdated. Regardless of the results in this match, it's better to wait for revisions than make Vs Threads straight away.

Here is another thread I found where Nyx is being mentioned as the creator of the Collective Unconscious while the other posters says it's Nyarlatothep and Philemon who created it. The one arguing for Nyx eventually conceded and admitted that Nyarlatothep would win.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...-the-mc-from-persona-3-can-beat.309721/page-3

 

[Dark_warrior_100]

Nyar and Philemon literally ARE the collective unconscious, how can they create themselves?

 

[DarkGrath]

Yet again, pointing to what other people say doesn't validate your argument. For your argument to be considered valid, you need to actually analyse and evaluate the evidence you are given. You have not done that. Rather, you have gone under the assumption that those people have done that work for you. That's what's known as the "Appeal to Popularity" fallacy. If you haven't checked it already, I recommend you look at the Fallacy page. I always consult it whenever I'm constructing an argument on a debate, it's quite helpful.

So, to be blunt, the premises you have presented don't prove your conclusion. "These people agreed on it" does not equal "It is true".

 

[Ranzuki]

No, the reason why I posted links instead becuase you are relying on a Persona guidebook which directly contradicts the events from Persona 2, a direct canon source. Seeing that I don't have the guidebook myself nor have real ways to disprove it's validity, the only choice I have right now is direct links that have people disagree with the guidebook statement themselves.

 

[Ranzuki]

Let's not forget that Persona 1 and 2 have different writers and directors compared to Persona 3, 4, and 5. Making your guidebook questionable at best. You also have to give source who wrote that guidebook to make sure it is not contradicting statements from previous source material. If anything it's contradicting the origin of Shadows and Collective Unconscious.

 

[Solacis]

@Ranzuki

The Persona 3 Club Book was produced by Famitsu in collaboration with Atlus staff. Plus, it's more recent compared to P1 and P2, so its canonicity supercedes that of the games that came out prior to it's publishing. Nyx also did not create the Collective Unconscious, but instead, her presence is what starts the chain of events that leads to the birth of the Collective Unconscious. I cannot speak for whether or not Philemon and Nyarlathotep created the Collective Unconscious, but unless you provide actual evidence instead of expecting other people to read entire threads just to see your point, then you can forget about anyone agreeing to your claims.

 

[Ranzuki]

@Ranzuki

The Persona 3 Club Book was produced by Famitsu in collaboration with Atlus staff. Plus, it's more recent compared to P1 and P2, so its canonicity supercedes that of the games that came out prior to it's publishing. Nyx also did not create the Collective Unconscious, but instead, her presence is what starts the chain of events that leads to the birth of the Collective Unconscious. I cannot speak for whether or not Philemon and Nyarlathotep created the Collective Unconscious, but unless you provide actual evidence instead of expecting other people to read entire threads just to see your point, then you can forget about anyone agreeing to your claims.

Persona 3 Portable came out in 2010, Persona 2 Portable for the PSP came out in 2012 with NEW updated scenario, so that makes the databook completely invalid at least for Persona 2. And unless that fanbook is written by Satomi Tadashi himself, it does not overwrite anything established in Persona 2. Yuichiro Tanaka wrote Persona 3.

 

[Solacis]

Same company. Same universe. Same game series. If we wanted to disregard facts just because of different writers, we wouldn't even be talking about this at all. ATLUS owns Persona, not Satomi Tadashi. ATLUS can do whatever it wants with the series, and made the P3 Club Book even knowing that they have a policy regarding chaging anything that Satomi Tadashi wrote. This implies that the Collective Unconscious was NOT made by Philemon and Nyarlathotep, and that Satomi did NOT intend for people to interpret this to be the case.

Phil and Nyarly may have full control over the CU, but so did Yaldabaoth. So did Chronos and Enlil. Philemon and Nyarly were special before, but not anymore.

 

[Ranzuki]

Ok then, let me ask you this. Is the Collective Unconscious beyond time or not?

 

[Solacis]

The Velvet Room and its attendants don't perceive time linearly, see everything going on in the Collective Unconscious, the source of their power, and can travel between alternate universes, so I'd say, yeah.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Ok then, let me ask you this. Is the Collective Unconscious beyond time or not?

the Velvet room alone is already exist beyond time

Doesnt really surprise to be honest. Seeing how the shadows have the power to manipulate time-space to created the Dark Hour and the Persona users can resist that power to walk freely in a stopped time.

Aaannd.... feel things need to be addressed. Nyx the alien didnt created the CU, it was humanity's will created it as the counter force to fight against Nyx. So basically it can be summed down : Philemon and Nyaruko was born to resist Nyx's wave of death (Though this isnt say much about whether they are stronger or not)

For their place in the Persona's power hierachy. I cant really say. Arcording to a Persona expert around here named Sera, Persona Q2 has confirmed about the existence of the administrators of CU like Yaldabaoth and the duo Philemon, Nyaruko. But i myself hasnt played PQ2 yet so really cant say much

Also, if you're interested, here's a the current revision of the Persona characters

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3212856

 

[DarkGrath]

This... *sigh*

The fact that they "seem like" "Cthulhu Lovecraftian alien gods" (which is such a bastardised term that it's almost embarrassing) does not even come close to meeting the burden of proof required to say that they are comparable to Nyx.

I don't mean to be more aggressive or assertive than necessary, but really. The intention behind this entire thread is so unbelievably transparent. Even though they have now been upgraded, you made this thread back when Tatsuya was Low 2-C and Makoto was still 4-A, with Narukami being High 6-A. You said in the OP you wanted to know who would win, despite how obvious that would be under the circumstances. And when proof that the likes of Makoto was stronger was presented, you began to treat this thread less like a Versus Thread and moreso a Content Revision thread, where your conclusion this entire time regardless of changes to premises has been "Tatsuya is stronger than Makoto".

Give it a break. This was an attempt at making a spite thread that backfired because you weren't up to date on events in the wiki. If you're really so insistent on Tatsuya being stronger than anyone else in the series, make a CRT. Even if you wanted to continue this discussion on a Versus Thread, the Persona 1 and 2 profiles are so out of date that they badly need to be revised before any proper matches can be implemented.

For hopefully the last time, someone please close this.

 

[Ranzuki]

This... *sigh*

The fact that they "seem like" "Cthulhu Lovecraftian alien gods" (which is such a bastardised term that it's almost embarrassing) does not even come close to meeting the burden of proof required to say that they are comparable to Nyx.

I don't mean to be more aggressive or assertive than necessary, but really. The intention behind this entire thread is so unbelievably transparent. Even though they have now been upgraded, you made this thread back when Tatsuya was Low 2-C and Makoto was still 4-A, with Narukami being High 6-A. You said in the OP you wanted to know who would win, despite how obvious that would be under the circumstances. And when proof that the likes of Makoto was stronger was presented, you began to treat this thread less like a Versus Thread and moreso a Content Revision thread, where your conclusion this entire time regardless of changes to premises has been "Tatsuya is stronger than Makoto".

Give it a break. This was an attempt at making a spite thread that backfired because you weren't up to date on events in the wiki. If you're really so insistent on Tatsuya being stronger than anyone else in the series, make a CRT. Even if you wanted to continue this discussion on a Versus Thread, the Persona 1 and 2 profiles are so out of date that they badly need to be revised before any proper matches can be implemented.

For hopefully the last time, someone please close this.

Do you have to take this personally? If can't avoid that then please. Get out. Ive already made this thread when Ren Amamiya is already at low 2-C. If you keep making personal attacks on me that is completely irrelevant to the actual topic, I will report you.

 

[Solacis]

DarkGrath has made no attacks on your person, Ranzuki. All that's been done was him pointing out your blatant mistakes.

Additionally, the one derailing from the actual topic here is you, Ranzuki. Every knowledgeable member that's looked at this thread has already stated how much of a mismatch this fight is. This is a Versus Thread, and you're derailing by treating it like a Content Revision Thread. Go ahead and try to report, it'll be you who gets warned.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, alright.

This is going a bit too far now.

I most certainly didn't make that last comment as an attempt at insulting you, Ranzuki. However, as I mention on my profile, I'm fully aware that in regular speech online I come off as being far, far more aggressive than I intend to be. So I apologise if that was the case.

Let's just get this thread closed already. There's absolutely nothing good that can come out of prolonging it.

 

[Ranzuki]

DarkGrath has made no attacks on your person, Ranzuki. All that's been done was him pointing out your blatant mistakes.

Additionally, the one derailing from the actual topic here is you, Ranzuki. Every knowledgeable member that's looked at this thread has already stated how much of a mismatch this fight is. This is a Versus Thread, and you're derailing by treating it like a Content Revision Thread. Go ahead and try to report, it'll be you who gets warned.

He was accusing me of making a spite thread even though I did not have that intention as Im already aware that Ren Amamiya is low 2-C and just added the other two as extras before they got upgraded. Those blatant accusations does not contribute anything in this topic other than personal attacks. Also this is a versus thread, those points regarding the Collective Unconscious are still related to the topic and is relevant how this match will play out.

 

[Ranzuki]

Alright, alright.

This is going a bit too far now.

I most certainly didn't make that last comment as an attempt at insulting you, Ranzuki. However, as I mention on my profile, I'm fully aware that in regular speech online I come off as being far, far more aggressive than I intend to be. So I apologise if that was the case.

Let's just get this thread closed already. There's absolutely nothing good that can come out of prolonging it.

No, I would still like to hear Matthew Schroeder's opinion and other members who are knowledgeable in Persona 1 and 2, before this thread gets closed. As far as I know even that massive Persona content revision thread didn't have people knowledgeable in Persona 1 and 2 either and some of them already posted in this thread who only has knowledge of 3, 4, and 5. There are still many things left to be discussed like how Maki was implied as the strongest Persona user and how she scales to the protagonists. But I will leave that for the other posters who have knowledge of the new P2 EP scenario for the PSP.

 

[Dark_warrior_100]

But dude, we know the profiles are wrong, but until they are revised and changed, it would be no use arguing with characters from p1 and 2

Me and Zer00Negativo are planning on making a thread about them in the future though, so they will probably be changed soon, but until then, there is nothing we can do about it

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I think this should be closed, for real.

P1 and P2 pages are outdated and if anyone else is knowledgeable on them then please make a new CRT or join that Persona Verse-wide discussion thread.