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Taichi Kamiya's Agumon vs Masaru Daimon's Agumon

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Missy0124 said:
GohanoXDI was referring to the given types which were metal empire and deep savers which refer to sea type and machine type digimon respectfully while the type name for dragon type digimon like examon is dragon's roar as shown here https://wikimon.net/DM02-094btw greymon is a dinosaur type not a dragon type via the translation provided here
https://wikimon.net/St-232
Click to expand...


Digimon that bear the name "Dramo" must contain Dragon-factor data in their Digicore; the higher the percentage of that data, the more the shape of their body becomes a Dragon-type . https://wikimon.net/Coredramon_(Blue)

Please pay attention.

Also Greymon are directly said to be dragon type Digimon in Digimon Next
Having braved countless battles, this flaming drago is crowned with a helmet of courage!
https://wikimon.net/St-509
This ferocious, carnivorous drago is armed with violent tendencies!
https://wikimon.net/Bo-1127
 
I don't see what the point of contention here is. Dramon Killers are stated to work on Dramon Digimon (who are noted to have Dragon Data but are not the only ones) and are noted to be dangerous to Wargreymon whose a Dragon Man Digimon. That's a pretty clear indication that any digimon whose a dragon, is fair game to the Dramon Killers. The only difference is that ones descended from Dracomon and the other is not.

They're all dragons.
 
"No not everything is canon to one another saying as xros wars explicitly stated that the different heroes come from different timelines this was exposition delivered by bargramon or the clock shop man as he's known in that arc."

Um, they are still canon to Digimon as a franchise. Them being different timelines does not change that. Your point here is irrelevant to the canon.

"using every single source just sounds dumb because under that logic kireha's greymon would be the same character as taichi's greymon which would be illogical considering xros wars does not use traditional levels and the power difference between the two is massive."

That's not how that works. We use every single source, but we also separate Digimon by species as well as certain characters. We still scale the same across media and the rules of the general level and abilities are the same. DigiXros is different, but still falls within general scaling.

"different interpretations of events exist look at the xros manga and xros anime as examples both of those can't be the same thing due to drastic differences in plot eg doroulumon has a extra form in the manga in the anime he does not."

This does not contradict them being canon. Both are canon as both are different worlds. In this case there would be a Dorulumon file for both the anime and the manga. General scaling would still apply.

"in tamers the digital world was created via humans in adventure it's a parallel dimension so it's literally impossible to match up everything and here i thought the dragon ball scaling rules were dumb."

Objectively false as it's blantantly stated that Digimon not only existed before Humans and that the 4 Holy Beasts are the creators. Later Digimon lore confirms that the Digimon Multiverse and the Human Mulitverse are two different realities and that Digimon existed long before humans. We have made blogs upon blogs upon blogs explaining everything in extreme detail. You should probably read all the blogs before you make yourself look more like a fool. Linked on our verse page. It's only dumb to you as you seem to have this view of how Digimon works when we have blogs with sources explaining how things work quite differently than you think. It's actually quite simple. Rookies scale to Rookies, Champions scale to Champions, Ultimates scale to Ultimates, Megas scale to Megas. Only time this changes is when they have consistent feats that extend outside the usually performance for them.

"dramon type digimon are dragons yep tell that to birddramon and seadramon which are sea serpents and birds respectfully and examon is a form of dracomon not a descendant so really it does not contradict anything from dracomon's reference book."

Yes, Birdramon and Seadramon objectively have Dragon Type Data, they just have a lesser percentage. They are "Dramon" Digimon and as such they have Dragon Data. The point of the Dramon species is that they automatically have Dragon Data, this is directly noted to be the case.

Digimon that bear the name "Dramon" must contain Dragon-factor data in their Digicore; the higher the percentage of that data, the more the shape of their body becomes a Dragon-type, but Coredramon's Dragon-factor data has reached 100%, so it is definitely a pure-blooded Dragon Digimon. It is said that this blue-skinned Coredramon is the evolved form of a Dracomon that assimilated large quantities of a rare gem called "Blue Diamante", which is mined only in mountainous regions with very high altitudes, and is able to fly at high speed with its developed wings to survive in the steep mountains.
"i only used wikimon because they have the reference book entries translated nonetheless your source states chrome digizoid is a derivative of the aforementioned metal so no it's not the same thing per se but it is related."

It's a metal created from the same thing, Huanglong Ore, Chrome Digizoid further comes from Chrondigizoit. And this is irrelevant because --

"if you have the translated reference entries than i'll gladly stop using wikimon as a source because using wikipedia as a source is inaccurate but it's best one can do when their are no other translations available."

Literally posted a translated reference book entry that states that Chrome Digizoid is the strongest metal.

"it's literally stated what chrondigizoit alloy is in the metal seadramon reference book entry and btw chrome digizoid is stated to be a derivative of this alloy in the source you yourself linked how can you claim their the same exact thing exactly"

Good lord. YES, exactly. My point was that they are from the same origin and simply have different properties. Can you read? I am starting to think you cannot. Chrome Digizoid comes from Chrondigizoit, it's a subset of a metal created from Huanglong Ore. Both are the same material, they just have different properties which MetalSeadramon confirms with Chrondigizoit as it specifically integrates with Living tissue. Chrome Digizoid which is made from Chondigizoit is still the same metal, only it does not have this property of integrating with living tissue.

"dragon digimon refers to digimon with dragon data yes i know that much and according to wikimon nether metal seadramon nor mugendramon are dragon type digimon."

They are "Dramon-Digimon" who by default have Dragon Data.

"the games often have evolutions that are not supported by lore and or the original anime"

Oh my, this is gold. If you really want to talk about this lore you know nothing about, then you'd should start reading our blogs. If you really knew Digimon Lore, you'd know that in canon lore, a Digimon can technically Digivolve into any form they wish. So any evolution is supported by lore. We only use consistent evolutions per our rules. Their original anime appearance matters not as the anime is simply another source we use.

"appearance eg shoutmon evolving from gigimon in digimon world:next order despite that evolution sequence not being supported anywhere else prior "

Doesn't need to appear anywhere else prior, it's still canon and can still be used. That's not changing, sorry bud. If you don't like it, tough.

"so metalgreymon evolving into ancientgreymon can be chalked up as a inconsistency nonetheless reference books have far more importance than one off game titles"

It does so via Ancient Evolution. It's not an inconsistency as it simply shows that Digimon have widely branching evolution lines. Something confirmed in lore, we have blogs detailing all Digimon information. Read them. There are ones linked in the verse page for you and there are older ones found on Executor N0's blog page. It being a "one off game" doesn't make it any less viable, especially seeing as it's not contradictory as nothing says that a Digimon is bound by one evolutionary line. In fact, the opposite is stated.
 
This is starting to derail abit, so lets bring it back to a more Understandable outlook.


The argument was that Dramon killers should effect Shinegrey due to dragon data, thanks to most people on this thread it has been confirmed that Dramon = Dragon data and that dramon killer, is a name used due to dramons typically being dragon types, rather then only effecting the dramon suffix.


As pointed out, the dramon killers are double edged sword, working against himself, and so it can be confirmed that they would effect the alternate mega of ShineGreymon. The main question is, how do the two mega's scale against each other? If they are about even then i'll give this to Wargrey, as an Even AP gives him a massive advantage due the dramon killers.
 
Well, even with the Dramon Killers, ShineGreymon still holds a substantial AP advantage.

WarGreymon with the "Power of God" scales to Machinedramon who is only 4 Holy Beast level.

ShineGreymon scales to Royal Knight and SGDL class opponents, i.e far superior to the 4HB. So this should be kept in mind.
 
Dragonmasterxyz

Um, they are still canon to Digimon as a franchise. Them being different timelines does not change that. Your point here is irrelevant to the cano

Just because one thing is officially licensed does not make it canon to different interpretations of the universe because under that logic we should composite all db profiles which is obviously a dumb idea nonetheless it's stated that their are different canons explicitly so your opinion does not matter btw the reference books count because their lore to the franchise at large and not some individual canon like say xros wars or tamers as examples.


That's not how that works. We use every single source, but we also separate Digimon by species as well as certain characters. We still scale the same across media and the rules of the general level and abilities are the same. DigiXros is different, but still falls within general scaling

Having certain species composited into one profile is dumb not only because it creates alot of scaling issues but because it's explicitly stated that different timelines exist so you can't just assume that their from the same timeline.


that would be the same as having different pokemon use 80 different canons and just asumme they all connect again why would character profiles matter if digimon are just categorized by their species


This does not contradict them being canon. Both are canon as both are different worlds. In this case there would be a Dorulumon file for both the anime and the manga. General scaling would still apply

how can they canon to one another if they legitimately take place in a different time/spatial dimension again that's like saying charizard from the anime scales to red's charizard from orgins because their both the same species just ignore the fact their shown to be set in different universes and the fact their feats are entirely different.


Objectively false as it's blatantly stated that Digimon not only existed before Humans and that the 4 Holy Beasts are the creators. Later Digimon lore confirms that the Digimon Multiverse and the Human Mulitverse are two different realities and that Digimon existed long before humans. We have made blogs upon blogs upon blogs explaining everything in extreme detail. You should probably read all the blogs before you make yourself look more like a fool. Linked on our verse page. It's only dumb to you as you seem to have this view of how Digimon works when we have blogs with sources explaining how things work quite differently than you think. It's actually quite simple. Rookies scale to Rookies, Champions scale to Champions, Ultimates scale to Ultimates, Megas scale to Megas. Only time this changes is when they have consistent feats that extend outside the usually performance for them.


Someone never watched tamers it seems okay i'll give you the jist of it henry wong's father and a team of programmers worked a ai product of sorts but since their budget was cut they decided to scrap the project nonetheless fact of the matter is in tamers the digital world us stated to be created via a team programmers.

in tamers that's stated to the case again you can disregard what the story says because your going to do so anyway nonetheless i'm not going to fight the scaling rules because it is the way it is there's nothing some one off member can do about it

i regret calling dragon ball's scaling rules dumb because this quite literally is the most factually inaccurate thing on the site and that's saying alot considering the dumpster fire that dragon ball's scaling is here.


I'm not talking about lore in that comment your responding to i'm talking about the tamers anime series and how it cannot fit into adevture


not all rookies are comparable to one another then again look at renamon from tamers she consistently fights against adult level opponents and some series do not even use the standard level formatting look at frontier and xros wars as examples. In the gifs below she kills armor digimon which are stated to be comparable to champions

http://i.imgur.com/2fGEWmr.gif

http://i.imgur.com/zmDAOZE.gif


It's a metal created from the same thing, Huanglong Ore, Chrome Digizoid further comes from Chrondigizoit. And this is irrelevant because


it's irrelevant because what exactly and all these metals are derivative of huanglong ore however that does not make them the same thing nonetheless your the mod so then again this debate is rather purposeless because the second i gain any ground in regards to any point you can just shut down what i'm saying so your beliefs don't get pressured.


Literally posted a translated reference book entry that states that Chrome Digizoid is the strongest metal.


There are also entries stating chondigizoit is the strongest alloy so your point is null and then again we have contradictory sources in this case so both can't be said to be true.

Oh my, this is gold. If you really want to talk about this lore you know nothing about, then you'd should start reading our blogs. If you really knew Digimon Lore, you'd know that in canon lore, a Digimon can technically Digivolve into any form they wish. So any evolution is supported by lore. We only use consistent evolutions per our rules. Their original anime appearance matters not as the anime is simply another source we use.

Yep just because i disagree with the rulings here makes me know nothing how does that make sense exactly and if the type of scaling presented here is any indicator then the blogs must be the most torturous to read though btw gaiamon in the digimon world games almost destroyed the earth why would that never be mentioned in any of the anime series if everything is canon to one another.


lectures me about lore yet procides to use digievolve instead of the accurate translation which would be evolution nonetheless digimon cannot choose what to evolve into again omnimon pacifically requires wargreymon and metalgargumon so the statement that digimon can evolve into whatever they want is false btw digivices allows digimon to evolve to their natural evolution without the need of absorbing data and unless you think digimon adventure is not canon then this is fact.

Doesn't need to appear anywhere else prior, it's still canon and can still be used. That's not changing, sorry bud. If you don't like it, tough.

I know the mods have all the power and nothing will change due to that again thanks for admitting that but then again any person with at least half a brain can see that's the case you admitting it just proves me to be right nonetheless debating this garbage is wasting our time because we both know that this debate serves no purpose because even if i prove the scaling here is wrong via facts and logic you could literally shut down the thread or just not approve of the revision which would cause the revision's proposed changes to be dismissed so no matter what one does nothing will change here.

It does so via Ancient Evolution. It's not an inconsistency as it simply shows that Digimon have widely branching evolution lines. Something confirmed in lore, we have blogs detailing all Digimon information. Read them. There are ones linked in the verse page for you and there are older ones found on Executor N0's blog page. It being a "one off game" doesn't make it any less viable, especially seeing as it's not contradictory as nothing says that a Digimon is bound by one evolutionary line. In fact, the opposite is stated


ancientgreymon's reference book entry states it pasted it's abilities onto the greymon species as a whole so then again having the progenitor of all greymon also just be a form does not line up in lore and why did adventure state that digimon have natural forms that can be reached via the digivices if the forms in question are just branching paths.
 
Theres a reason it's called evolution. They evolve to adapt. Digimon all have a primary path, however depending on the situation they can adapt and change, take Next 0rder or redigitize as examples. Depending on the digimons stats they evolve differently.

And with AncientGreymon, let me put it like this. If Put into a situation where dinosaurs would be needed again, would animals evolve into something different, or would they return to when they were strong, monstrous creatures? Evolution isnt a singular pathway forward.

As for Tamers, they created the AI yes, however the digital world created itself from said AI, the humans didnt, it evolved itself into a host computer, if anything Humans accidentally created the Host pc, not the digital world. As for lore, Hunters CONFIRMS every season previously is canon to the same universe, the games anode and cathode tamer link up Adventure 01 and 02 along with tamers into the same universe, Data squad connects itself to 01, the V-Tamer manga connects to 02 as daisuke appears there. The games all connect to almost every anime, along with most other games, with the exception of a few that seem to be considered the non-canon entries, like world 3.

As for Chrome digizoid, Huanglong ore is LITTERALLY where it comes from. And they are both THE SAME METAL, one has a simple different property of merging. Would you call iron and rusted iron completely different metals? No, you wouldnt.
 
Yep just because i disagree with the rulings here makes me know nothing how does that sense exactly and if the type of scaling presented here is any indicator then the blogs must be the most torturous to read though btw gaiamon in the digimon world games almost destroyed earth why would that never be mentioned in any of the anime series if everything is canon to one another.

Because they happened in parallel worlds. Is that too hard to understand? again you aren't paying attention to what others saying and acting extremely disrespectful. And you refuse to research on information provided.

Also both the game and manga came out before that so called original anime.
 
"Just because one thing is officially licensed does not make it canon to different interpretations of the universe because under that logic we should composite all db profiles which is obviously a dumb idea nonetheless it's stated their canons explicitly your opinion does not matter btw the reference books count because their lore to the franchise at large and not some individual canon."

False Equivalency, Digimon canon and Dragon Ball canon are two different things. Not all canons are the same. Also, what are you talking about? It's not about opinions, we have a canonicity blog on the verse page that has sources and everything proving our point. We've already proven this to be canon long before this discussion. Also, the Digimon Lore extends far beyond the reference book.

"Having certain species composited into one profile is dumb not only because it creates alot of scaling issues but because it's explicitly stated that different timelines exist so you can't just assume that their from the same timeline."

It creates like zero scaling issues actually. So not correct either. Different timelines doesn't change how the species operates. Burden of Proof is on you to prove that one universes Meramon is any different than anothers, especially when they each share the exact same reference book entry.

"how can they canon to one another if they legitimately take place in a different time/spatial dimension"

Because it is still the same multiverse.

"again that's like saying charizard from the anime scales to red's charizard from orgins because their both the same species just ignore the fact their shown to be set in different universes and the fact feats are entirely different."

You do know that there is a difference between the power of a general member of the species and as specific well trained member right? Masaru's ShineGreymon is literally infinitely more powerful than not just your average Mega level, but other ShineGreymon as well. Hence why Masaru's ShineGreymon has a different file to that of a General ShineGreymon.

"Someone never watched tamers it seems okay i'll give you the jist of it henry wong's father and a team of programmers worked a ai product of sorts but since their budget was cut they decided to scrap the project nonetheless fact of the matter is in tamers the digital world us stated to be created via a team programmers"

And this is objectively false as by the lore of the entire franchise outside of Tamers, even if this were true despite the fact that it's proven in Tamers that there are Higher Gods in it and that Digimon are beyond humans. How about you extend your knowledge beyond Tamers and read our Cosmology blog hm?

"in tamers that's stated to the case again you can disregard what the story says because your going to do so anyway nonetheless i'm not going to fight the scaling rules because it is the way it is there's nothing some one off member can do about it"

Yeah, in Cyber Sleuth, Hacker's Memory, and literally every other source contradicts and proves this notion factually incorrect.

"i regret calling dragon ball's scaling rules dumb because this quite literally is the most factually inaccurate thing on the site and that's saying alot considering the dumpster fire that dragon ball's scaling is here."

Coming from the person who hasn't read a single blog or proven you point this is laughable. The scaling rules here are not factually inaccurate and you have not proven that they are. We have blogs and sources proving our claims and revisions upon revisions doing so as well. Don't even try it. Your argument boils down to "I don't like it therefore it's wrong" without actually debunking anything when we have all the information here, with easy access for you to read, which you have shown incapable of doing. Try again.

"it's irrelevant because what exactly and all these metals are derivative of huanglong ore however that does not make them the same thing nonetheless your the mod so then again this debate is rather purposeless because the second i gain any ground in regards to any point you can just shut down what i'm saying so your beliefs don't get pressured."

They both come from the ore and Chrome Digizoid comes fromr Chrondigizoit. Also, don't pull this "oh you're a mod" bullshit on me. Not once have I silenced your points. I have argued every single point against you with absolute fairness. So this statement hold no water. You may have run into a mod who would do that, but not all mods are the same. Assuming such is a Hasty Generalization fallacy. Try again.

"There are also entries stating chondigizoit is the strongest alloy so your point is null and then again we have contradictory sources in this case so both can't be said to be true."

Maybe because both are the same metal and just function differently. Chrome Digizoid is made from the Strongest Metal, ergo it is also the strongest metal. Simple logic.

"Yep just because i disagree with the rulings here makes me know nothing how does that sense exactly and if the type of scaling presented here is any indicator then the blogs must be the most torturous to read though btw gaiamon in the digimon world games almost destroyed earth why would that never be mentioned in any of the anime series if everything is canon to one another."

You clearly show a lack of knowledge on the subject. Also, how would you know if you haven't even taken the time to read nor understand them, instead you just stone wall and proceed to ignore everything and debunk nothing. Funny you say that when our Digimon blogs have often be described as the some of the most justified and detailed informative blogs on the site. Because, they are different worlds. They are still canon to the multiverse. Try again.

"lectures me about lore yet procides to use digievolve instead of the accurate translation which would be evolution nonetheless digimon cannot choose what to evolve into again omnimon pacifically requires wargreymon and metalgargumon so the statement that digimon can evolve into whatever they want is false btw digivices allows digimon to evolve to their natural evolution without the need of absorbing data and unless you think digimon adventure is not canon then this is fact."

What? This means literally nothing, your strawman is burning as we speak. You realize that we use evolution and such on our profiles right? Same with our blogs, oh wait, you never read them. Sorry, I forgot that ignorance is bliss. If you get up on such a high horse, you are going to fall. Omegamon is literally a fusion between WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon specifically. He's exclusive to those two. However, WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon themselves are not exclusive to one evolutionary path.

"I know the mods have all the power and nothing will change due to that again thanks for admitting that but then again any person with at least half a brain can see that's the case you admitting it just proves me to be right nonetheless debating this garbage is wasting our time because we both know that this debate serves no purpose because even if i prove the scaling here is wrong via facts and logic you could literally shut down the thread or just not approve of the revision which would cause the revision's proposed changes to be dismissed so no matter what one does nothing will change here."

Boi, you haven't even read the blogs nor debunk anything. I admitted nothing, with you faulty arguments, nothing is changing. Facts and logic? You have not debunk our blogs full of sources, nor debunked our mindset. I am a mod, but let me ask, when have I, Dragonmasterxyz ever once dismiss anything or close the thread on you? Never. I haven't even so much a deleted a single comment of yourse, but instead addressed your "facts and logic" with my own. Difference here is I have blogs and scans proving my point. You have nothing but your own incredulity. Don't pull this card with me because you can't come up with a good argument.

Me being a mod doesn't change my points, does your "facts and logic" only work for that strawman you've built? Also, I see you are one of those "I am always right and therefore you are wrong people" meaning this is pointless. Come back when you've actually read our blogs. They are there for people to read to get information, which you are sorely lacking in. This is actually quite disrespectful when we put a ton of effort in researching information and putting it all together in blogs and various revision threads only for you to ignore it, not even bother to read the information and simply say we are wrong with no proof.

"ancientgreymon'a reference book entry states it pasted it's abilities onto the greymon species as a whole so then again having the progenitor of all greymon also just be a form does not line up in lore and why did adventure state that digimon have natural forms that can be reached via the digivices if the forms in question are just branching paths."

Because it is specifically via "Ancient Evolution", not normal evolution. It's literally a special evolution mechanic. Adventure never says this. If it did, prove it. Also, Adventure is also what proves that Digimon evolution is not linear and is actually branched. Digimon have more common evolutions that they turn into, but they still have branched lines that have consistently appeared in other media. Try again.

"not all rookies are comparable to one another then again look at renamon from tamers she consistently fights against adult level opponents and some series do not even use the standard level formatting look at frontier and xros wars as examples. In the gifs below she kills armor digimon which are stated to be comparable to champions"

You mean Renamon who has absorbed the data of multiple Digimon at that point and has gotten far stronger than your average Rookie Digimon? Did you forget that lore bit and detail about Digimon as a species? You know, the Renamon who has a completely different profile to other Renamon? Oh wait, you didn't read the blogs, sorry about that. Also, what? You realize that Frontier and Xros Wars still have your average Digimon Evolution stages outside the main cast right? Hell, the Ten Legendary Warriors still follow the idea of Evolutionary Stages. And they are specifically noted to be stronger than the average Champion Digimon or Digimon of the evolutionary stage. These are exceptions to the rule as made blatant by the series. Try again.
 
Okorito1


the clock shop man states he brought from heroes from across time and space btw these type of statements are present throughout the entire crossover so it's rather explicit that the other heroes are not from the same timeline even tamers is stated to be a different timeline via the adventure games.


btw i could connect all the pokemon material and dragon ball material under that same train of thought nonetheless how could tamers be canon to the adventure anime when their background is entirely different

my point about the huanglong ore was that metalseadramon's metal was stronger than the metal used by wargreymon so why would one be harmed and not the other but since both metals are stated to be strongest we can assume their around the same durability level this also backed up via them coming from the same ore

animals could physically not evolve back into dinosaurs because that's not how evolution works btw all evolution is the progressive changes in genetics over long periods of time which usually can lead to extreme morphological and or biological changes factors that control the progressive change in genetics is natural selection and adaptability nonetheless digimon do not operate off these principles so your point is mute


GohanoXD

actually the digimon virtual pets came out first if your being technical but that really matters not to this debate because the source material in this case are adventure and savers so they take precedence over the source material again can't draw much off of the source material saying as it's just a old tomgachi.

if they happened in alternate worlds as xros wars consistently states then how would the events of that story be canon to the digimon world games or anything else the answer is it would not but the wiki has their standard on things so there's more nothing more one can do
 
Please learn what Digimon evolution and their physiology first before calling my point moot. Also it's not "mute" lmao.

I'm sorry but your point is moot [[1]]

Also guess someone forgot that Shamamon evolved to Vritramon in Frontier with Beast spirit of Fire.

Pokemon is non related here to the situation due to having separate canons. On the other hand your point is same as saying Future Trunks is not canon to dbz since he is from a different timeline.
 
"the clock shop man states he brought from across time and space btw these type of statements are present throughout the entire crossover so it's rather explicit that the other heroes are not from the same timeline even tamers is stated to be a different timeline via the adventure games."

I think you are misunderstanding what we mean by canon to one another. I hope you aren't assuming we scale the likes of Tai to Takato or something for feats in their respective series, because we don't. We have General Digimon feats, and blatant exceptions get scaled differently. There is a baseline tier for each evolutionary stage which pages follow via feats down by an average member of the species. No matter the world, unless the Digimon is stated to be more powerful compared to other mons of it's evolutionary level or species, the others scale to this as a base. Their stories are canon, but they all fall under the same multiverse and same cosmology. This does not change.

"btw i could connect all the pokemon material and dragon ball material under that same train of thought nonetheless how could tamers be canon to the adventure anime when their background is entirely different"

Pokemon follows similar logic. They scale evolutionary stages with baseline tiers unless proven to be stronger, with their being variation from time to time. Dragon Ball scales completely different to Pokemon. Not every verse has to follow the same scaling format.

Regarding the evolution to AncientGreymon, once again, Ancient Evolution. This is specified that it is strictly via Ancient Evolution.

"actually the digimon virtual pets came out first if your being technical but that really matters not to this debate because the source material in this case are adventure and savers so they take precedence over the source material again can't draw much off of the source material saying as it's just a old tomgachi."

The main sources are Adventure and Savers, but they still follow the cosmology's lore and its rules. They do however scale from different feats with ShineGreymon's being on the higher end.

"if they happened in alternate worlds as xros wars consistently states then how would the events of that story be canon to the digimon world games or anything else the answer is it would not but the wiki has their standard on things so there's more nothing more one can do"

Once again, the events of Adventure is canon to other media, however what happened there only affects their own world. Their are infinite worlds with their own stories that are all canon. Adventure is canon to Digimon. Tamers is canon to Digimon. Frontier is canon to Digimon. Savers is canon to Digimon. Cyber Sleuth is canon to Digimon. I can go on. Each addition to the franchises expands on the lore, adds new feats and so on and so forth. Digimon is very much an extended canon in which the lore doesn't just come from one source. You have to blatanly look at all sources and evaluate them all. If not, you end up with incomplete information which is what we are trying to explain to you.
 
this is the problem with people who only follow the anime tbh

i have the opinion that the anime is the "least canon" part of the franchise as they licence it from bandai and make up their own stories, whilst the games and other media are bandai themselves. any contradiction from the anime would be overruled by the other media due to being from bandai. toei make up their own shit as they go along and is baically the only place that uses "linear evolutions". obviously it still counts, but in terms of ranking id rank anime the lowest as its not from bandai themselves (well i guess itd above the non japanese official games like masters, soul chaser, and all star rumble)

as for armor, even with renamon having absorbed some digimon to get more powerful, outside of 02 armor is used as jobbers to die to rookies to look more impressive. armor is basically the inebtween of rookie and champion, not counting the golden forms which equal mega.
 
This thread is honestly going nowhere on this argument of Canon, we need to focus more on the actual battle at hand rather then Canon, How does Shinegreymon's AP Scale in comparison to Wargreymons? And how much of a boost actually are the dramon killers?
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Well, even with the Dramon Killers, ShineGreymon still holds a substantial AP advantage.

WarGreymon with the "Power of God" scales to Machinedramon who is only 4 Holy Beast level.

ShineGreymon scales to Royal Knight and SGDL class opponents, i.e far superior to the 4HB. So this should be kept in mind.
Click to expand...
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Well, even with the Dramon Killers, ShineGreymon still holds a substantial AP advantage.

WarGreymon with the "Power of God" scales to Machinedramon who is only 4 Holy Beast level.

ShineGreymon scales to Royal Knight and SGDL class opponents, i.e far superior to the 4HB. So this should be kept in mind.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Right, missed that in the mess of arguments, In that case wouldnt Shinegreymon stomp? Or would Wargreymon still have a chance through some other wincon?
 
Well Dramon Killers will likely still hurt, but ShineGreymon would win with low to mid difficulty due to sheer AP.
 
GohanoXD


Pokemon is non related here to the situation due to having separate canons. On the other hand your point is same as saying Future Trunks is not canon to dbz since he is from a different timeline.

trunks still is shown and stated to exist in the same universe while digimon universes are entirely separate with no stated connection and while connections are shown like in xros wars it's made rather clear that these characters don't exist in the universe again this logic is just dumb because it ignores all established differences between the universes and says let's put them into one ignoring all context suggesting differences but you know what scale the d-reaper to savers yggdrasil because that will make alot of sense
 
"trunks still is shown and stated to exist in the same universe while digimon universes are entirely separate with no stated connection and while connections are shown like in xros wars it's made rather clear that these characters don't exist in the universe again this logic is just dumb because it ignores all established differences between the universes and says let's put them into one ignoring all context suggesting differences but you know what scale the d-reaper to savers yggdrasil because that will make alot of sense"

Yeah, your comment shows that you are misunderstanding what we mean by "they are all canon to one another"

We do not scale D-Reaper to Yggdrassil because there is nothing cosmology wise that supports this scaling. D-Reaper scales to the 4 Holy Beasts by feats, so that's the level D-Reaper will scale to. Entities who are far lower of the hierarchy for the cosmology and much weaker. If you read our blogs you would understand all this. We even have a blog regarding our Top/God Tier scaling listed on the verse page.

To quote myself once again.

"I think you are misunderstanding what we mean by canon to one another. I hope you aren't assuming we scale the likes of Tai to Takato or something for feats in their respective series, because we don't. We have General Digimon feats, and blatant exceptions get scaled differently. There is a baseline tier for each evolutionary stage which pages follow via feats down by an average member of the species. No matter the world, unless the Digimon is stated to be more powerful compared to other mons of it's evolutionary level or species, the others scale to this as a base. Their stories are canon, but they all fall under the same multiverse and same cosmology. This does not change."

"Once again, the events of Adventure is canon to other media, however what happened there only affects their own world. Their are infinite worlds with their own stories that are all canon. Adventure is canon to Digimon. Tamers is canon to Digimon. Frontier is canon to Digimon. Savers is canon to Digimon. Cyber Sleuth is canon to Digimon. I can go on. Each addition to the franchises expands on the lore, adds new feats and so on and so forth. Digimon is very much an extended canon in which the lore doesn't just come from one source. You have to blatanly look at all sources and evaluate them all. If not, you end up with incomplete information which is what we are trying to explain to you."

Digimon is an infinite Multiverse. Every event we have seen in Digimon media is canon to the cosmology whether it has been retconned or not with recent lore. Extend your scope beyond just the anime as the lore extends far beyond that. The characters are from different universes, yet they are still under the same infinite multiverse. And as such they are canon to one another despite being apart of different worlds as the events in each series has still occured.
 
Dragonmasterxyz


False Equivalency, Digimon canon and Dragon Ball canon are two different things. Not all canons are the same. Also, what are you talking about? It's not about opinions, we have a canonicity blog on the verse page that has sources and everything proving our point. We've already proven this to be canon long before this discussion. Also, the Digimon Lore extends far beyond the reference book.


Never said dragon ball was the same as digimon now did i and i also never stated general digimon lore only exists in the reference books then again your definition of lore probably extents to literally every published work.


never said all canons are the same then again your the one who's suggesting cross series scales not me so that statement sounds rather ironic


It creates like zero scaling issues actually. So not correct either. Different timelines doesn't change how the species operates. Burden of Proof is on you to prove that one universes Meramon is any different than anothers, especially when they each share the exact same reference book entry.


you literally have to ignore all context to even buy this argument but here are some examples of blatant power differences between digimon of the same species in 02 golemon stomps the armored digimon who are comparable to adults yet in frontier he gets beat by the spirit digimon agunimon who is also around adult level.

leomon gets killed via dorumon in the x-evolution movie yet he fights toe to toe with the adult level orgemon in adventure then again countless more power differences like these are shown to exist throughout the series.

that's because these are different characters from different universes but then again this whole idea operates off of ignoring contextual differences in terms of power,behavior and design differences between these characters then again most people don't argue our war game greymon is the same character showcased in adventure because of their differing backstory and behavior but under your species assumption it would assume that these characters should possess comparable power outputs in spite of that never being shown.


Because it is still the same multiverse.

Mute point and or non responsive again how could how can they canon to one another if they legitimately take place in a different time/spatial dimension and btw that same logic could be argued for any franchise with a established multiverse so under your logic optimus from g1 should scale to aligned optimus because their from the same multiverse then again your species can also showcased to dumb within the context of digimon itself because different individuals are almost always shown to at different tiers of power unless you think beelzebumon from tamers scales to one from xros wars


You do know that there is a difference between the power of a general member of the species and as specific well trained member right? Masaru's ShineGreymon is literally infinitely more powerful than not just your average Mega level, but other ShineGreymon as well. Hence why Masaru's ShineGreymon has a different file to that of a General ShineGreymon.

you know nothing in the story suggested agumon is a special case your only saying this so you can avoid the objective truth which is cross series scales don't make sense and again scaling via species makes no sense for digimon as a franchise considering it's vast interpretations make it so it's impossible to have accurate scale then again here's another example clockmon in tamers does not have much power from what were shown but in xros wars he can summon heroes from across different spatial dimensions

btw the whole existence of xros wars literally just destroys your argument because it does not line up with any interpretation of the digital world shown prior unless you think zones and nonexistent levels were a thing in the other digimon shows again if your logic was correct then no objective differences would exist in the world because their the same thing under your logic then again the digital world is both a computer program and a alternate universe because everything is canon right?

They both come from the ore and Chrome Digizoid comes fromr Chrondigizoit. Also, don't pull this "oh you're a mod" bullshit on me. Not once have I silenced your points. I have argued every single point against you with absolute fairness. So this statement hold no water. You may have run into a mod who would do that, but not all mods are the same. Assuming such is a Hasty Generalization fallacy. Try again.

I Don't like the scaling here therefore it's wrong have you ignored every single piece of reasoning i've gave on why one thinks this way because it sounds like you have via making this point.

essentially my reasoning is that there are objective differences between the cosmology and lore of certain universes therefore it's impossible for them to be one and the same eg the digital world can't be a alternate universe and some computer program at same time another example would be digimon cannot function off levels yet at the same time not.

these examples come from tamers,adventure 01,tri and xros wars.


to put it bluntly people act off self interest so if banning me or silencing me as you put it helps you then that is the result you will take regardless of if agree with it or not btw basic psychological showcases this to be true and the argument is human psychology versus the word of some guy on the internet which do you think is a more credible argument to reply on
 
"Never said dragon ball was the same as digimon now did i and i also never stated general digimon lore only exists in the reference books then again your definition of lore probably extents to literally every published work."

You didn't have to say it, but you keep using it as an example when the two canons are not the same. Read your posts. Actually yes, and we have sources and blogs proving such a fact. Read our canonicity blog. Oh wait, you refuse to do so.

"you literally have to ignore all context to even buy this argument but here are some examples of blatant power differences between digimon of the same species in 02 golemon stomps the armored digimon who are comparable to adults yet in frontier he gets by the spirit digimon agunimon who is also around adult level."

This really shows how much you read my posts. There is a General level of power we have for each evolutionary stage. However, there are exceptions who vary on that scale. Golemon defeats Armor Digimon in 02, neat, that's still consistent as that simply means that Golemon is on a higher scale from the general baseline tier. Nothing more. Golemon loses to the Spirits is consistent with Lore as the spirits themselves are directly confirmed to be far above normal Champion Digimon and thus scale above the baseline tier. It changes nothing from how we handle things.

"leomon gets killed via dorumon in the x-evolution movie"

Outliers exist. Either that or Dorumon is stronger than an average Rookie and would be scaled accordingly.

"yet he fights toe to toe with the adult level orgemon in adventure"

Which is also consistent with his official reference book and lore.

"then again that's because these are different characters from different universes but then again this whole idea operates off of ignoring contextual differences in terms of power,behavior and design differences between these characters then again most people don't argue our war game greymon is the same character showcased in adventure because of their differing backstory and behavior but under your species assumption it would assume that these characters should possess comparable power outputs in spite of that never being shown."

Showing that you don't understand a damn thing we are saying. We do take context in mind. Specific characters can scale above the baseline depending on feats. Flamon is directly stated to be above even Champion Digimon despite being a Rookie and thus does not scale to High 8-C and instead 6-C which is the baseline tier for Champions thanks to Meramon who showed itself to be no stronger than any other Champion and even lost to a newly formed Champion Digimon. You realize variation within a tier exists a tier right? Not every Champion Digimon is at the same numerical value as another. If we ignored context, Lucemon would be High 8-C for merely being a Rookie Digimon, despite it showing that it is far above even the Royal Knights who have consistent 1-C feats and scaling within the cosmology.

"most people don't argue our war game greymon is the same character showcased in adventure because of their differing backstory and behavior"

We don't argue this either. Never have I stated or implied this was the case. Don't put words into my mouth.

"under your species assumption it would assume that these characters should possess comparable power outputs in spite of that never being shown."

As a species yes they should. One Greymon without training will be just as powerful as another Greymon unless one of these Greymon have feats surpassing this general benchmark which spoiler alert, we account for. There are also many Reference Book entries that note how a lower evolutionary stage Digimon having a move that can somehow topple a higher stage as an impressive feat, showing that the next evolutionary stage also signifies another level of power. The Pokemon fans here scale Pokemon the same way. Digimon like Liollmon has a move that can damage Champions and this is accepted as a super powerful attack. We literally go in depth and justify our scaling in our blogs with actual sources to prove us correct. At this point I will simply be linking blogs as we explain everything there. Although knowing you, seeing as you are so deadset you are correct, you won't read them. Despite us agreeing in many aspects such as there being variation in power. Just because both Digimon are rated as "Island level" =/= They are the same degree of "Island level" as there is blatant variation. In general Rookies are rated as Large Building level+. However, Rookies like Flamon or Lucemon, or hell Arkadimon are ranked far higher via their own feats. If a Digimon shows feats beyond the benchmark, we take this into account and rate them accordingly.

Explaining our reasoning for scaling like we do: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._Digimon_Adventure_Feats#Explaining_the_Scale

Digimon Canonicity: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dragonmasterxyz/Digimon_Canonicity

Digimon Cosmology: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Executor_N0/DIGIMON_COSMOLOGY:_WORLD_HIERARCHY
 
First of all, Digimon does not have an official canon. When initially created by WiZ, only a single Digimon setting was envisioned that would be expanded from LCD Toys to video games such as Digital Monster Ver.S Digimon Tamers or Digimon World.

In the future, the Digimon Adventure anime and Digimon Adventure V-Tamer 01 manga were produced again to expand this same setting, it was never imagined "what happens in something does not explain what is in the other", in fact it is just the opposite, as the LCDs toys were unable to define a setting in a well-defined way, products from other media have the function of expanding that setting.

About the "Multiverse", this was initially defined in V-Tamer 01 to explain how the Adventure and V-Tamer events were different, precisely because in the beginning everything was supposed to be the same world. That is, both products were imagined as being the same, until the crossover was decided by the manga producers to establish the multiverse explanation. But just as this explanation was decided without paying attention to the existing one (Worlds shaped by beliefs as established by Kakudou), some products adopted it (like Tamers and Brave Tamer) while others did not (like Medley and Battle Spirit).

Some products did follow the explanation of the multiverse and were made that way, while others did not. So we have two different setting that contradicted each other, until in more recent Digimon Story and Digimon World games, especially those developed by Ryo Mito and later by Kazumasa Habu, Digimon concepts started to be unified, and with Habu the explanation returned to the Digimon Adventure concept of "Worlds shaped by beliefs" and is the setting that will be more explained in Survive.

So yes, technically you are right to say that many Digimon products were made as if they were something more isolated, based on the base setting of LCD Toys, but without worrying about making connections with the past or parallel works, but the current games are retconning several concepts of Digimon, even contradicting the very meaning of some works, and is being used to establish the most definitive version of "this is Digimon". And as it is the closest to a unified version that we have had in almost the entire history of Digimon since V-Tamer decided to divide the multiple media, so we are basing ourselves on the retcon version of cosmology following the new games.
 
"never said all canons are the same then again your the one who's suggesting cross series scales not me so that statement sounds rather ironic "

These two facts have nothing to do with one another, what are you on about? The irony is lost when you consider we are not cross series scaling as it all falls under Digimon's scaling and cosmology as well as its mechanics.

"Mute point and or non responsive again how could how can they canon to one another if they legitimately take place in a different time/spatial dimension and btw that same logic could be argued for any franchise with a established multiverse so under your logic optimus from g1 should scale to aligned optimus"

Good lord, ******* read you idiot. We have stated time in time again that being in a different universe =/= they are non canon to each other. The events of Adventure still happened as per the overall Digimon canon. However, this does not mean that suddenly Taichi's WarGreymon and Masaru's ShineGreymon are suddenly scaled to one another as they both have fought Digimon with different feats that surpass the evolutionary stage's baseline. Taichi with the Dark Masters and Masaru with the Royal Knights. Masaru's feats are objectively superior and despite Taichi's actions being canon to the multiverse, they do not effect Masaru unless there was a sense of general scaling involved.

"your species can also showcased to dumb within the context of digimon itself because different individuals are almost always shown to at different tiers of power unless you think beelzebumon from tamers scales to one from xros wars"

The series never contradicts us as we even state that some Digimon of a certain evolutionary stage can be beyond the other of the same stage and we take this into account. However, if no such thing is shown, they scale to the baseline feat. Like, we've said this countless times. And no, they do not scale to the same thing as the Beelzemon "species" is that of the Sin of Gluttony Beelzemon, y'know, the Multiversal Constant and Conceptual Entity? Neither of these Beelzemon are the actual avatars of the true Seven Great Demon Lord Beelzemon (if you read our blogs, you'd know this). The Beelzemon species follows a separate set of rules due to the role of Beelzemon itself in the lore and cosmology of the verse. We have rules against scaling certain Digimon to one another due to the fact that certain Digimon related to the hierarchy of the Gods are special cases. Unless you are the Royal Knight Omegamon and confirmed to be THE Royal Knight Omegamon and not just an Omegamon that a Tamer just trained up, you do not scale to the Royal Knights. Unless you are proven to be THE Seven Great Demon Lord Lucemon, you do not scale to the various Avatars of Lucemon.

"you know nothing in the story suggested agumon is a special case"

You're right. Masaru's Agumon has shown no special qualities beyond other Agumon and thus scales to High 8-C like every other Rookie and Agumon. Masaru's ShineGreymon on the otherhand has shown such a thing. How? Masaru's ShineGreymon not only has defeated other Megas, but it has also killed Belphemon, i.e the Demon Lord of Sloth/Conceptual Entity/Avatar/Top tier of the franchise as well as fought and defeated Royal Knights who are also Top Tiers of the franchise. i.e He's fought Digimon relevant to the actually hierarchy of power and whom are certain levels of power far beyond that of the average Mega level which the basic ShineGreymon file scales to while Masaru's ShineGreymon has shown to have reached a level far beyond that. And guess what, other than SHineGreymon, there is no variation from Masaru's Agumon-GeoGreymon=RizeGreymon to the average one. Thanks for proving my point.

"this so you can avoid the objective truth which is cross series scales don't make sense"

You're subjective opinion is not fact. Get off your high horse. You have literally proven nothing wrong. It makes sense and we have not only explained why here, but in our blogs as well, which have sources supporting them. Although you refuse to read them.

"here's another example clockmon in tamers does not have much power from what were shown but in xros wars he can summon"

Summoning is not a test of power. It's simply an ability. Unless that ability is stated to be unique to that particular Clockmon or inherited from a pre-evolution, then it is something other Clockmon can do as the species share abilities unless proven otherwise. Example, Piedmon in Adventure not only has Conceptual Manipulation but Sealing via feats, however these abilities were specifically granted by Apocalymon and as such not an ability other Piedmon share.

"btw the whole existence of xros wars literally just destroys your argument because it does not line up with any interpretation of the digital world shown prior unless you think zones and nonexistent levels were a thing in the other digimon shows again if your logic was correct then no objective differences would exist in the world because their the same thing under your logic then again the digital world is both a computer program and a alternate universe because everything is canon right?"

Ex already addressed this, but you seem to forget that expanding the lore is a thing. Obviously certain aspects did not exist in older works that now exist in newer works. The franchise has retconned and added many things to it's lore which by proxy affect how the older series should be viewed as guess what, the lore in Adventure doesn't line up one to one with TRI which instead follows the modern lore more accurately. The concept of the Seven Great Demon Lords being Conceptual Entities wasn't a thing until recent expansions on the lore. The concept of how large the Digital World was wasn't really expanded until, once again, recent expansions to the lore. This doesn't make these older events non-canon, that's not how that works. What it does is change the actual scale and nature of feats performed in those older works as now the series has been properly expanded upon. Digimon, Pokemon, Shin Megami Tensei, Persona, God of War, Devil May Cry and many other verses in general get effected by the lore added by newer works, allowing older feats to be re-examined and many times, buffed due to the new lore adding more stuff. Ex's post explained this in more detail. As does the blogs, which you refuse to read so you are arguing with incorrect information still while we have blogs full of those valuable sources open for you to read at your leisure.
 
Dragonmasterxyz


Outliers exist. Either that or Dorumon is stronger than an average Rookie and would be scaled accordingly.

if maybe it was one outlier or plot hole you may have a point but it's hundreds of outliers and plot holes again i gave around 7 to 8 alone with just the limited knowledge on the series i have again someone as knowledgeable as you should be able to see where i'm coming from.

Leomon in that continuity is weaker or dorumon is stronger one or the other you can't verify which then again excusing my point with the oulier excuse like that even counts in this case btw how can yggdrasil die three different if everything is set in the same universe.

yggdrasil died via dorumon in x-evolution he died via bagramon in xros wars as reveled in the manga and he died via agumon in savers so then again how can all these deaths all be canon to one another and if they are canon to one another then why did yggdrasil never mentioned getting killed again you would think dying three whole times would be something of note to mention.


how can alphamon and omegamon be servants to yggdrasil yet at the same time exist as separate characters eg omegamon is just a form in adventure yet in x-evoulution he's a member of the royal knights and alphamon is dorumon in x-evolution yet he's royal knight in tri how can this be possible if everything is the same.

This really shows how much you read my posts. There is a General level of power we have for each evolutionary stage. However, there are exceptions who vary on that scale. Golemon defeats Armor Digimon in 02, neat, that's still consistent as that simply means that Golemon is on a higher scale from the general baseline tier. Nothing more. Golemon loses to the Spirits is consistent with Lore as the spirits themselves are directly confirmed to be far above normal Champion Digimon and thus scale above the baseline tier. It changes nothing from how we handle things.

digimon levels are more comparable to stages and or points in their lifespan because each stage of evolution represents a stage in their life digitama is the egg and child,baby,adult so on and so fourth nonetheless it's more akin to aging some gather more data in their life spans which allows them to become more powerful nonetheless scaling off levels can make sense but their are alot of contradictions because later material like xros wars ignores that idea and alot of series has forms that don't fall within traditional levels like spirits and armored digimon.


As a species yes they should. One Greymon without training will be just as powerful as another Greymon unless one of these Greymon have feats surpassing this general benchmark which spoiler alert, we account for. There are also many Reference Book entries that note how a lower evolutionary stage Digimon having a move that can somehow topple a higher stage as an impressive feat, showing that the next evolutionary stage also signifies another level of power. The Pokemon fans here scale Pokemon the same way. Digimon like Liollmon has a move that can damage Champions and this is accepted as a super powerful attack. We literally go in depth and justify our scaling in our blogs with actual sources to prove us correct. At this point I will simply be linking blogs as we explain everything there. Although knowing you, seeing as you are so deadset you are correct, you won't read them. Despite us agreeing in many aspects such as there being variation in power. Just because both Digimon are rated as "Island level" =/= They are the same degree of "Island level" as there is blatant variation. In general Rookies are rated as Large Building level+. However, Rookies like Flamon or Lucemon, or hell Arkadimon are ranked far higher via their own feats. If a Digimon shows feats beyond the benchmark, we take this into account and rate them accordingly.

digimon don't train to gain power they kill other digimon and steal their data again how does the deadset idiot know this and not the expert of digimon himself.


within a neutral environment with no outside factors like power differences and fighting style yes two greymon fighting would be a equal match but those type of circumstances are nigh impossible to happen again that would be like finding two humans who fight the exact same way and have the same physicality.

everytime we've been shown the same species again there's always at a different power and what determines said baseline btw ofc there is a variation of power within any given tier because nobody is rarely ever at the exact same power plus tiers by definition are meant to categorize things into slots essentially.


pokemon's scaling here is a mess aswell considering evolution stages don't function as tiers in any capability btw digimon levels can function that way because essentially digimon are shown to scale based off levels presented in the story like i've mentioned it's not best way to do things because of the eventually irrelevancy of these said levels nonetheless lucemon is only powerful because of his status as one of the seven deadly sins btw since i'm on that topic how can lucemon from xros wars exist if he died in frontier afterall it is one universe according to you btw how can he go from holding the literal world in his hands and losing to a literal god than losing to a powered up shoutmon.


shoutmon would be more powerful than lucemon at his most powerful form under the logic you present and do you least count xros wars as separate because that literally does not line up anything presented prior.
 
"I Don't like the scaling here therefore it's wrong have you ignored every single piece of reasoning i've gave on why one thinks this way because it sounds like you have via making this point."

Nope, I haven't ignored anything as I have countered and replied to quite literally every single post you have made. And no, this was me speaking of your attitude which has been confirmed from other users who aren't mods.

"essentially my reasoning is that there are objective differences between the cosmology and lore of certain universes therefore it's impossible for them to be one and the same eg the digital world can't be a alternate universe and some computer program at same time another example would be digimon cannot function off levels yet at the same time not."

Still has failed to address the fact that the series as a whole has changed and that older bits of lore have been retconned and has been expanded upon over the years. So essentially our reasoning is that these objective differences matter not as they have been retconned or expanded on by the current lore that has been portrayed in the franchise of the past decade.

"to put it bluntly people act off self interest so if banning me or silencing me as you put it helps you then"

Never said shit about silencing you. Hell, you were reported by a non moderator and I blantantly said that while you are a pain to deal with, that I do not agree with banning you over these disagreements alone. So, I stop talking out your ass.

"that is the result you will take regardless of if agree with it or not"

Never said anything about banning you.

"btw basic psychological showcases this to be true and the argument is human psychology versus the word of some guy on the internet which do you think is a more credible argument to reply on"

This is literally irrelevant to the topic at hand. I love how I've made it so clear that I have no intentions of banning you and instead have only not deleted any of your posts, but did not close your thread but also freely allowed you to post all your extremely flawed arguments and debate them accordingly. But you instantly go to "you're a mod and you don't agree with my argument and thus you'll ban me" acting as if you're this infallible guy being victimized by some unjust system, like dude you are not a clown, but the entire ******* circus.

Also, I disagree with your arguments because you have not convinced me that you are correct and I stand by the evidence sourced within our blogs in which we have spend years gathering evidence and scans for in order to do what we do here as well as so that anyone with questions can read them or go on our Q&A thread as we know some people are not going to instantly know every little bit about the Digimon franchise and how it works, and thus we made finding that out and learning about it open to literally every single person. We have made important details easy to access and once again, open to every single person on the internet. So do not come at me with this bullshit and act like a victim or act like we are idiots who don't know jackshit about what we are talking about when we have years worth of blogs, some that have been rewritten to fit detail new lore and made easier for the public that can prove you wrong.

Oh and trust me, I will address your new points in full.
 
"if maybe it was one outlier or plot hole you may have a point but it's hundreds of outliers and plot holes again i gave around 7 to 8 alone with just the limited knowledge on the series i have again someone as knowledgeable as you should be able to see where i'm coming from."

No, not really. Your example are flawed and I have addressed every one of them. Renamon kill Champions? She directly has been training and absorbing the data of Digimon and thus was far more powerful than the average Rookie. She is objectively beyond the average Renamon as she has flat out done things the average Renamon is not capable of, i.e killing Armor Digimon. I could go on. And guess what, we take those differences into account when making specific files hence why there is a Renamon file for the average member of the species and Rika's Renamon.

"Leomon in that continuity is weaker or dorumon is stronger one or the other you can't verify which then again excusing my point with the oulier excuse like that even counts in this case"

You know, I was playing along and trying to see how long you'd use the Leomon and Dorumon example, but you clearly don't actually remember the whole point of the Pendulum X and Chronicle X storyline which X-Evolution is canonically apart of. But before I go into that detail, let's ignore how Dorumon did not kill him. In fact, Dorumon was getting his ass handed to him and was about to kill Leomon before Leomon decided to not kill him. "Then what killed him?" Well I'm glad you asked. He was killed by the X program that Yggdrasil made to reduce the Digimon population. Only Digimon with the X-Antibody such as Dorumon could survive it. This is why Dorumon was running away from Leomon to begin with as Leomon was trying to kill him to steal the X-Antibody to survive.

"btw how can yggdrasil die three different if everything is set in the same universe."

>"how can yggdrasil die three different if everything is set in the same universe."

>"if everything is set in the same universe."

>"same universe."

Never once did I say they were in the same universe. I actually flat out stated that they are different universes. However, I said that they were apart of the same multiverse in which is directly stated to be infinite and to have infinite universes with infinite possibilities. They all fall under the same lore and cosmology as it is today.

Now onto your Yggdrasil point, this is simple. Yggdrasil canonically has the ability to create avatars and constantly sends its avatars out to fight. If Yggdrasil is destroyed, then the Digital World goes as well as Yggdrasil is the Digital World itself. "Where is this all stated?" Well luckily for you, we have a blog that specifically goes over these aspects of Yggdrasil with sources to boot.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...TO_THE_REALM_OF_GODS#GOD_OF_THE_DIGITAL_WORLD

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Executor_N0/Yggdrasil_the_God_of_the_Digital_World

There ya go.

"digimon levels are more comparable to stages and or points in their lifespan because each stage of evolution represents a stage in their life digitama is the egg and child,baby,adult so on and so fourth nonetheless it's more akin to aging some gather more data in their life spans"

Naming wise yes, but reference book entries also hype them up as a level of power and they are treated as evolutions and not just age. We just so happen to have a blog with sources that explain this.

Here ya go: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...EXPLANATORY_BLOG:_DATA_AND_DIGIMON_PHYSIOLOGY

"which allows them to become more powerful nonetheless scaling off levels can make sense but their are alot of contradictions because later material like xros wars ignores that idea and alot of series has forms that don't fall within traditional levels like spirits and armored digimon."

Not really. Xros Wars fusions don't have traditional stages, however the majority of individual Digimon in fact do. Base Shoutmon is officially a Rookie level Digimon, although it's a rookie that is specifically comparable to Champion Digimon. Bagramon is a Mega level, Lilthmon is a Mega level. Digimon of specific evolutionary lines exist in Xros Wars so we still have that general reference and thus can be tiered accordingly by the level of Digimon they are shown to beat. The spirits fall within the normal evolutionary stages. The spirits aren't their own evolutionary stage, they are a classification of Digimon. Flamon is still a Rookie Digimon, Agunimon is still a Champion Digimon, Vritramon is still an Ultimate Digimon, Aldamon is still a Mega Digimon. KaiserGreymon is still a Mega Digimon, Susanoomon is still a Mega Digimon. However, spirits are directly stronger than the general Digimon of their levels and thus are noted and tiered accordingly.

"digimon don't train to gain power they kill other digimon and steal their data again how does the deadset idiot know this and not the expert of digimon himself."

Digimon train and get stronger and they also absorb data to get stronger. Even our Digimon Physiology page and blog has the Data absorption bit. Even a novice in Digimon knows that Digimon do this, so how do you not know this?

"within a neutral environment with no outside factors like power differences and fighting style yes two greymon fighting would be a equal match but those type of circumstances are nigh impossible to happen again that would be like finding two humans who fight the exact same way and have the same physicality."

Yes, but you need to understand and maybe I haven't been clear, but we have two different types of profiles. We have the general species file the just uses what an average member of the species would be at. These are the baselines that all files follow and we then account for variation in power resulting them being on a higher numerical value. For example, say we have a Golemon profiles and then we had the Golemon that was under the command of a Tamer. The Golemon file would only account for that general precedent set up for Champion Digimon while the Tamer's Golemon who maybe has stomped other Champions would be much higher on the 6-C scale.

"everytime we've been shown the same species again there's always at a different power and what determines said baseline btw ofc there is a variation of power within any given tier because nobody is rarely ever at the exact same power plus tiers by definition are meant to categorize things into slots essentially."

What determines the baseline is the feats we see Digimon of that level perform consistently. For example, Digimon of the Champion level consistently have feats ranging from Tier 7 to Tier 6 with Island level being within their bencemark. Rookie Digimon have consistent High 8-C feats hence that being the general benchmark. Ultimate Digimon have shown many stellar feats ranging from MetalGreymon's High 5-A Black Hole feat, DarkSuperStarmon's Supernova and Black Hole feats, Doumon's Dimension Creation feat that created a Planet and Sun, Digitamamon's Dimension Creation feat of having a dimension filled with planets and stars compressed within its body, Etemon's feat of absorbing a Black Hole larger than the entire Milky Way and Vademon's feat of having a larger than Galaxy sized realm compressed within a simple mountain. Megas are simply higher than that. Royal Knights and Seven Great Demon Lords constantly have multiversal feats and higher dimensional feats of destroying "All Worlds" and whatnot, i.e the example of the variation that we do actually take into consideration.

"btw digimon levels can function that way because essentially digimon are shown to scale based off levels presented in the story like i've mentioned it's not best way to do things because of the eventually irrelevancy of these said levels nonetheless"

We take those variations into account.

"lucemon is only powerful because of his status as one of the seven deadly sins"

Not really as Lucemon has his own feats that put him above even the other Demon Lords. And the Demon Lords all have their own feats. This point also coincides with this argument.

"btw since i'm on that topic how can lucemon from xros wars exist if he died in frontier afterall it is one universe according to you btw how can he go from holding the literal world in his hands and losing to a literal god than losing to a powered up shoutmon."

Like Yggdrasil, the Seven Great Demon Lords also create avatars that are spread across the multiverse.

This is all explained here

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...chise:_Explaining_the_Seven_Great_Demon_Lords (This is slightly outdated as this was way back in 2017 before the cosmology was expanded and we got more feats)

Here

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...OLOGY:_DARKNESS,_DARK_AREA_AND_ERASED_DIGIMON

And the scaling of top tiers are explained here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...gimon_Feats_and_Power_Scaling_at_Cosmic_Level

"shoutmon would be more powerful than lucemon at his most powerful form under the logic you present and do you least count xros wars as separate because that literally does not line up anything presented prior."

That specific Shoutmon form is more powerful than this avatar of Lucemon yes. Assuming this was THE Demon Lord Lucemon. Actually, Xros Wars simply expands on ideas brought up in previous entries and expands the Multiverse itself further.
 
"leomon gets killed via dorumon in the x-evolution movieW

he dies from succumbing to the x virus. hes about to kill dorumon, and then takes pity and lets dorumon lives and then passes out and dies.

"btw since i'm on that topic how can lucemon from xros wars exist if he died in frontier afterall it is one universe according to you btw how can he go from holding the literal world in his hands and losing to a literal god than losing to a powered up shoutmon."

the lucemon in xros wars isnt even a member of the SGDL. its just a generic lucemon. which is why he dies so easily. not all members of a species are a member of a group. adevnture omnimon isnt a royal knight (and neither are the alphamon or jesmon). its a title, not a species trait. veevee in cyber sleuth is promoted to royal knight after the death of the CS universe's Ulforce. anyway your point doenst work because its two different lucemons. one a million times more powerful than the other due to being one of the SGDL (as confirmed by bandai for the frontier lucemon)

> yggdrasil died via dorumon in x-evolution

he was defeated by omnimon X's all delete lol. btw yggy actually tanked it according to decode and just revives himself later to help deal with vitium, something he states he can do in data squad.

> he died via agumon in savers

a form specifically known as agumon burst mode
 
"how can alphamon and omegamon be servants to yggdrasil yet at the same time exist as separate characters eg omegamon is just a form in adventure yet in x-evoulution he's a member of the royal knights and alphamon is dorumon in x-evolution yet he's royal knight in tri how can this be possible if everything is the same."

The Omegamon in Adventure is not the Royal Knight Omegamon. He's never been confirmed to be the actual Royal Knight (which is a title, not a species thing. As a species they are classified as "Holy Knight" Digimon). You also seem to ignore the fact that there are time periods in which events happen. You seem to think all these events happen at the same time when they aren't. Also, the Dorumon in X evolution was specifically an Alphamon who had his powers locked away. This happens to him once again in Decode and in Cyber Sleuth when it possessed Kyoko Kuremi. And yes they are the same Alphamon. The Royal Knights also freely travel between past, present and future on a daily basis as per their job.

Royal Knights are explained in this blog

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Executor_N0/The_Royal_Knights
 
the dorumon/alphamon in x movie an decode are the same alphamon, but I dont think thats the case for the alphamon of cyber sleuth.

the gankoomon in adventure psp is a royal knight though, and all of the anime people fight him there.
 
I believe based on quotes and such that the Alphamon in CS and basically the RK in general we've been seeing are the same Royal Knights just that Yggdrasil can effect their personalities and such. We at least know that Zeromaru from V-Tamer is the same UlforceVeedramon we've been seeing.
 
i dont agree with that, but it is what it is.

it would be hard to say that same omnimon is the one partnered to nokia

zeromaru is also only confirmed for the manga appearances (VT and XW). itd be hard to say that the kantarousmon belonging to sampson in data squad is the same one from say, chronicle X. plus that would mean zeromaru died in cyber sleuth lol. id treat it more like the demon lords than sampsons partner going to all these other universes.
 
I mean, the Royal Knights blatantly go across Past, Present and Future on a daily basis and often go all across the Multiverse as a whole so it would be consistent with the Royal Knight's lore that has been set up. The UlforceVeedramon didn't die in CS, he just got trapped.

Although Ex, knows more about those details regarding the reoccuring RK and Yggdrasil's manipulation of them than I do.
 
I would count them as differnet species unless proven otherwise, the proven ones being decode/X movie and XWM/VT (also i remember one of the digimon wiki/wikimon mods stated it was confirmed the gankoomon/hackmon from adventure PSP is the same one from cyber sleuth)
 
Like I said, Ex knows about it more than I do so, but I remember there being material supporting that the RK being the same ones and Yggdrasil manipulating their natures and such. Of course a big thing is that we never get a solid timeline of events so we don't know when XWM takes place when compared to say CS.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Like I said, Ex knows aboutit more than I do so, but I remember there being material supporting that the RK being the same ones and Yggdrasil manipulating their natures and such. Of course a big thing is that we never get a solid timeline of events so we don't know when XWM takes place when compared to say CS.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly sure it was stated in CS that Yggdrasil manipulates the royal knights so that they stay loyal to him ,even when he does shit like nuke the digital world with a virus
 
I'm fairly sure it was stated in CS that Yggdrasil manipulates the royal knights so that they stay loyal to him ,even when he does shit like nuke the digital world with a virus

in HM he mind controls craniamon, forcing him to do his bidding.
 
Missy0124 said:
GohanoXDtrunks still is shown and stated to exist in the same universe while digimon universes are entirely separate with no stated connection and while connections are shown like in xros wars it's made rather clear that these characters don't exist in the universe again this logic is just dumb because it ignores all established differences between the universes and says let's put them into one ignoring all context suggesting differences but you know what scale the d-reaper to savers yggdrasil because that will make alot of sense
Click to expand...
So by your logic since Zamasu and Goku Black are from another universe so they are non canon. That's not how canon works.

We don't scale D-Reapers with Yggdrasil since they never fought or even met each other.


One can travel between those universe as both shown in Xros wars, V-tamer manga, Wonderswan games and even Tamers anime (Ryo). So they does have connection (not talking about "they have same lore" since they don't, but traveling connection)
 
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