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SVTFOE Revisions

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SansTheSkeleton101 said:
You showed Marco break out of some chains tom made and wrestle with him, I don't see in the least bit how that makes him stronger at most comparable to him. Marco also isn't outright "superior" to all basic spells I'd say, just moreso comparable to them and knows how to fight them off. Also when has it been shown that Tom is weaker then Star's basic spells? Star only ever used ice manipulation on Tom, which is ignoring conventional durability via freezing him.
I didn't address it because I already brought up the Ludo point. Ludo in no way should be superior to Toffee in durability nor does Toffee have any reason to do all of this planning just to revert back to a weaker body. I don't see either how it's "more consistent" that he's a glass cannon, you brought up one entire scene where he got hit by Marco.
Click to expand...
Ok, so it's not a fact that Marco broke the chains (https://youtu.be/iMGfIvoo7V8?t=50) and cut off Tom's hand (https://youtu.be/7hGXspWJdO8?t=53), it's the fact he did those things BEFORE Running with Scissors and the series it self points out Marco with 16 years of experience is not the same as Marco before hand. So what I'm saying is even before that Marco is able to overcome things Tom has done, now stack that with the clear improvement in H-Poo's dimension and there ya go it's not far-fetch'd to say Marco is now comparable to Tom.

And you saying "he's not superior" excuse me... https://youtu.be/jSQtGObvg88?t=31 but he never really put any effort into deflecting and defeating those spells and never once had a worried look that he would get overwhelmed, the only reason he's sweating is because he fought all of them off in session, and hell he made Star just as tired. Yes, he is in fact superior to them.

Yeah, Ludo isn't superior to Toffee. However, Ludo + Wand is, and Toffee's plan wasn't to possess Ludo and defeat the Magical High Council, his plan was to corrupt the wand and destroy the book all while he escaped with his real body and not needing to fight again, that's why he walks casually away as if he's won. It is more consistent because the only times we see him fight with his actual body is:


- When Star blasted his arm off with a casual blast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mPrY1U7HM&feature=youtu.be&t=141


- When Moon used Ecipsa's spell (and I'd like to point out that the lizards weren't implying they could tank the attacks they said they can regen from it) https://youtu.be/I9mZZ_2xuiQ?t=84

- And Marco punching through Toffee https://youtu.be/3glOWNVOmq8?t=56


So based on those showings, we can conclude his Durability is scaled to Season 1 Star's basic attacks and Marco (Post-RWS) punching through him.
 
The wand doesn't cause the timeloop. Her refusal to do the work herself causes it. That's why it's not a feat for her spells.

@totally I think that's too vague for accausal

And I don't believe the crystals are the actual universes. That's not stated outright. They seem to just project her parallel forms.
 
The chains =/= Tom's full strength and cutting off Tom's hand was done off guard. I never disagreed that he is comparable to Tom though I said he's not stronger then Tom. You can still be comparable but slightly weaker to somoene. The two things he overcame was off-guard and magic of his.


He literally breaks into sweat during that fight. He's not superior to them, he can fight them off, he even needed to dodge some and use objects around him to fight htem off.


Yeah, Ludo isn't superior to Toffee. However, Ludo + Wand is, and Toffee's plan wasn't to possess Ludo and defeat the Magical High Council, his plan was to corrupt the wand and destroy the book all while he escaped with his real body and not needing to fight again, that's why he walks casually away as if he's won. It is more consistent because the only times we see him fight with his actual body is:


Do you have any proof that Ludo + Wand is superior to Toffee? One's 8-C to 8-B in durability, the other is Low 7-C as it literally gets destroyed by an attack on that scale. I never stated his plan was to possess Ludo and defeat the MHC, I said there'd be no reason to give himself a weaker body.


Star blasting his arm off was far prior to him going within the wand. An Eclipsa potency spell would be argaubly Low 2-C + it's a regen negating attack. Also the lizards implying they could regen from it refers to the fact that Moon's mother likely spammed far higher potency attacks. Marco punching through Toffee is the only feat after regaining his body that you got.


You showed two showings that happened prior to him going within the wand.
 
I'll right I'll drop the Marco vs Tom thing, I still think you still need a good arguement to say Tom is clearly still superior after RWS and Defeating Star's Spells.

Ok first off, the surviving the whispering spell is very weird, both toffee and Star survived it. Toffee is who you argued tanked it and it should make sense, but Star surviving a Low 7-C blast, HUGE OUTLIER. Both Marco and Star had to have hid in the glass cube to supposedly survive it.

So this means one of two things, Star and Toffee have Low 7-C durability... Or the Whispering Spell actually is a BFR and we see this when Star wakes up in the Magic Dimension and in Toffee's malformed goop.

Eclipsa's Spell that Moon used is in fact a glorified BFR as it sent Toffee's finger into the Wand and we see this when Glossaryck sends star in to retreve it.

So belive it or not, Toffee isn't Low 7-B nor Low 2-C and we see that Toffee gets ripped apart by Star's normal spells while Ludo... What's this? Tanks them regularly!
 
I don't think I ever mentioned Star surviving it should be applied?

When is it established that place is the magic dimension? Whispering spell is the destruction of the wand itself.
https://starvstheforcesofevil.wikia.com/wiki/Spells

Whispering Spell Storm the Castle Destroys the royal magic wand and causes it to self-detonate. Stated to be the first spell Star learned from her mother.
It's BFR + Regenerationn negation, the book of spells even mentions it's a spell to defeat the Seperatins. Plus there's already another BFR spell in the OP that sends them into an endless forest.

Ludo tanking 8-C to 8-B spells reguarly =/= being able to tank Low 2-C attacks that Moon projects.
 
SansTheSkeleton101 said:
https://starvstheforcesofevil.wikia.com/wiki/Spells

Whispering Spell Storm the Castle Destroys the royal magic wand and causes it to self-detonate. Stated to be the first spell Star learned from her mother.
Ludo tanking 8-C to 8-B spells reguarly =/= being able to tank Low 2-C attacks that Moon projects.
Click to expand...
Ok so you're using a wiki, one that explains spells by what they look like. They don't necessarily actually show what they do. So I'm questionable about your source. I agree the wand self-destructs but that doesn't mean it obliterates everything in the area, and that doesn't make sense anyways. I destroy you with wand therefore you appear in the magic dimension... That just sounds like a more complected BFR.

Yeah Normal Ludo can tank attacks from Star, Now Ludo with the Wand bonded to him and empowered by Toffee's Magic and the rest of the High Commission weakened because of the small pool of magic that exists... Hmm...

I'm I starting to make sense to you?
 
Nothing in that spell states it obliterates everything in that area, just that it self-detonates. Again, when is it established that place is the magic dimension?

One of the High Comission is a Low 2-C being w/o magic, I don't see your argument here.

No(not trying to be rude btw, if I'm coming off that way)
 
SansTheSkeleton101 said:
When is it established that place is the magic dimension?
Click to expand...
Ok... So when Star busts out of the place Toffee trapped her, Glossy tells her to dip down and she grabs the little pony.

Star later returns to the place (https://youtu.be/2GdegCE9Ctw?t=77) and the the pony herself says she the same one Star created in the dimension.

Let's not forget that when the pony was created the toffee goop that flooded the hideout and well the actual magic was returned and the whole corruption Toffee was giving off was elimated. That dimension is directly tied to the magic pool. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGaS7dcNtQg)
 
Star refers to her being dead in that place and Glossaryck remarks that no one's ever been there.

That doesn't confirm they're in the same area, heck, the minute Star births the pony she's transported back to the fight, where she was implied to have died, so it could be arguable ressurection.
 
I've contacted Dark, hopefully he responds with his thoughts.

If he thinks what I'm saying is bull, I'll drop it.

It's obvious that were aren't getting anywhere on our own.
 
Can somebody provide a TLDR summary of the new discussion, so it is easier to evaluate?
 
Okay, and what are the arguments?
 
The higher Tiers are able to take hits from each other without forcefields and damage each other with physical attacks so I believe they should still scale to their magic.
 
Arguments for 8-C to 8-B Durability: Marco was able to punch a hole through Toffee,

And,

One of Star's causal spells was able to lob Toffee's arm off.

Arguments for Low 2-C Durability: Toffee was able to tank Moon's strongest spells while possesing Ludo (Keep in mind Ludo only has around 8-C durability, so it makes no sense for Ludo to be capable of tanking Moon's strongest spells, thus it can be considered that Toffee just by existing in Ludo's body was capable of increasing Ludo's durability.)

And


The fact that Moon's Mother must have spammed high potency spells during her fight against Toffee just Toffee was able to kill her.

There's more I believe, so I'll let Sans or someone else summarize the rest if there is more.
 
Okay. So the story is simply very inconsistent?
 
So Dark told me he hasn't watched SVTFOE in a while and that he no longer can put in any input. So it seems this argument isn't gonna be settled.

I don't want to block this, I'll just make a content revision later with all the evidence laid out and easier to understand.

Sorry Sans, if I've come off rude to you.
 
Base durability and enhanced with magic might be an idea, but I do not know the franchise well.
 
Low key still think Marco should be Low 2-C as it's way more consistent with the Toffee punch and Meteora kick but whatevs.

Plus it should be mentioned that Hekapoo, someone with Low 2-C abilities needed an 8-C to accompany her on missions.
 
So should we consider the low end feats as plot convenience instead?
 
Are there any knowledgeable participants in this thread?
 
Antvasima said:
So should we consider the low end feats as plot convenience instead?
Click to expand...
I am for this. The show has set itself up to make the magic and stuff really important and vital to the survival of the universe. This was casually corrupted by Toffee, who maintained his composure even in the face of the strongest magic users in the show. Toffee shouldn't just be 8-C.

And to answer chewbacca, if Hekapoo really cared about Marco, she wouldn't bring him along on missions. Especially if we're considering the fact that he is leagues below her in power.
 
Sir Ovens said:
I am for this. The show has set itself up to make the magic and stuff really important and vital to the survival of the universe. This was casually corrupted by Toffee, who maintained his composure even in the face of the strongest magic users in the show. Toffee shouldn't just be 8-C.
Click to expand...
For the record i wasn't arguing that Toffee's AP was 8-C i was arguing his durability is because in his normal body falls apart with being hit by basic attacks.

Toffee while possessing Ludo fighting the magic high commision shows he's at Low 2-C and I'd like to ask you to rewatch the fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgbYikUCiBg

Ludo/Toffee already abosrbed the power from Moon before the fight started and never once tanked a hit before absorbing someone's power. He already absorbed Moon so his AP and Durability should be comparable to her's.

By the end he absorbed: Moon's Magic, omnitrax's power, both Hekapoo & Rhombulus twice. He then casually overpowered Moon and then tanked an attack from her.

He does have Low 2-C durability while in Ludo+wand+tofee and after absorbing Moon. But Toffee in his normal body hasn't shown anything to this degree.

But that's where I'll stop I don't want to drown this discussion again... Sorry.
 
Toffee in Ludo's body dodging or using shields can be chalked up to Ludo himself being 8-C in dura. Once Toffee was fully reformed, he was unaffected by Low 2-C attacks. So, Toffee himself is in fact Low 2-C in dura.
 
So should we go with the Low 2-C solution?
 
Maverick Zero X said:
The higher Tiers are able to take hits from each other without forcefields and damage each other with physical attacks so I believe they should still scale to their magic.
Click to expand...
I have never seen that outright shown. Unless they're preparing for a fight, which likely falls into the "they enhanced themselves with magic" category.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Low key still think Marco should be Low 2-C as it's way more consistent with the Toffee punch and Meteora kick but whatevs.
Plus it should be mentioned that Hekapoo, someone with Low 2-C abilities needed an 8-C to accompany her on missions.
Click to expand...
I've already explainned both scenarios. It's not more consistent as he has several lower end feats in series and had a hard time against Star's basic spells & Meteora was hit in the eye likely meaning he exploited a weak point. Hekapoo's Low 2-C abilities are via magic, bringing along an 8-C to 8-B when she's physically that too would make sense. Heck, she was also going to bring along that bird guy(forgot his name) are we going to consider him Low 2-C now?
 
GreyFang82 said:
Snip
Click to expand...
I'll relay my final thoughts here. Absorbing Moon doesn't mean much as her durability is also 8-C to 8-B physically and she wasn't in her mewnian butterfly form when he absorbed her. Absorbing omnitrax's power, Hekapoo, and Rhombulus wouldn't outright mean he's enhancing in strength, more of the wand's being enhanced in strength as shown via how the wands attacks got causally strongr after he absorbed Moon. Toffee's normal body can't even be infnitely lower then a body that can't even reach to Low 2-C when all the begins he's absorbed are going to the wand.
 
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