Supernatural (TV Series) Alterations

[Demetersson]

My primary contention here is the tiering of Lucifer and the other archangels/ Jack/ God Castiel. Currently the archangels are listed as either 3-B or 3-A, but there is good reason to believe they are low 2-C.

Feats:

1st: Lucifer (When empowered by Jack's grace) claimed to be capable of "Unraveling the universe", and other characters in the show (Including the highly knowledgeable alternate world Michael) believed him capable of doing so. Season 13: Episode 23 - Let the Good Times Roll.

2nd: Lucifer was capable of damaging Amara/ The Darkness (Albeit after she was weakened by 4 powerful witches, a large quantity of demons, and a group smite from heaven). Given that Amara ranks as 2-C, it's reasonable to believe that this feat places Lucifer as ~low 2-C. Season 11: Episode 23 - We Happy Few.

3rd: Castiel (While powered by the souls of purgatory) claimed to be capable of destroying all of hell, which follows a different flow of time to the material world (Dean spent 20 years in hell, while only one year seemingly passed from Sam's perspective back on earth). If Castiel is honest here, he is very clearly low 2-C. Season 7: Episode 1 - Meet the New Boss.

4th: Gabriel has been shown repeatedly capable of creating a pocket dimension which flowed at a different rate of time to the rest of the universe (While Sam and Dean were in his televised dimension, they had only lived through a handful of programs before Castiel stated they had been gone for days). Season 5: Episode 8 - Changing channels. Additionally, he was capable of creating a 6 month long time loop containing the entirety of the USA. Season 3: Episode 11 - Mystery Spot. While none of these feats show Gabriel creating universe-sized pocket dimensions, he is very clearly capable of creating and altering 4-dimensional spaces. It's also important to keep in mind he is either the weakest, or second weakest, archangel.

But do they all scale to one another?

All the archangels should scale to one another. Michael and Lucifer are very explicitly stated to be on a similar level of power. Gabriel is also stated as being capable of killing Lucifer season 5: Episode 19. They are also all referred to in the show on mass - An archangel can do this, an archangel would be capable of that, etc. It's reasonable to scale them together.

Jack Kline and God Castiel are slightly harder to scale. God Castiel killed Gabriel without any effort, but also believes that Lucifer/ Michael would pose difficulty for him if released from The Cage. Clearly, God Castiel should scale to Archangels - But it may be that Archangels do not necessary scale to God Castiel. Jack also overpowers archangels many times in the series with little effort, but true-vessel Michael is shown to be capable of fighting fairly evenly with Lucifer while powered by Jack's grace.

At the very least, including archangel blades, Raphael, Jack, Gabriel, Lucifer, and Michael should all scale to one another, since they all possess weapons capable of killing an each-other.

Counterarguments:

Feat X does not concern a whole universe sized space/ does not affect a 4 dimensional space:
(Example: Lucifer's universe-unraveling feat is not stated to unravel time/ Gabriel's feats are concerned with at-most concerned with country-sized pocket dimensions)

First of all: It is unclear whether Gabriel altered the universe's flow of time (Which is very clearly a universe-scale feat), or whether he created a country sized pocket dimension.

Second of all: It is usually assumed that, if a character is stated as "Capable of destroying a universe", then they are destroying space-time continuum of a universe - unless otherwise stated. See: Goku's low 2-C feat.

Third of all: That is why I included all four of these feats. Through Gabriel's feats, it is clear archangels can create/ alter 4 dimensional spaces. Through Lucifer's feat (With Jack's grace), it is clear that archangels can alter/ destroy universe-sized objects (Or at least deal damage to entities that can alter/ destroy universe-sized objects). Through Lucifer's solo feat, it is clear archangels can damage 2-C tier entities (The darkness). While no feat explicitly show an archangel creating a universe-sized, 4 dimensional space, the simplest explanation for all these individual feats is that archangels are low 2-C.

It would have taken Lucifer 7-10 days to unravel the universe:
Taking 7-10 days to destroy a 4 dimensional space is still going to rank a character at low 2-C. There is a reason High 3-A is a completely different tier to low 2-C: No matter how much damage you can do to 3-dimensional objects, it is still not necessarily true that you will be able to alter/ destroy a 4-dimensional object. Since Lucifer could alter/ destroy a 4-dimensional object, his feat should still be counted as low 2-C, even if it's a relatively weak low 2-C feat.

Are these feats consistent?
There are many inconsistencies in supernatural, especially among its more powerful characters. The points remains that archangels most consistently fit in low 2-C. Putting them anywhere else would ignore too many feats and statements in the show. There's also nothing in the show that so much as implies they are anything below low 2-C.

Why does Lucifer need Jack's power to destroy the universe if he is universal himself?
Many characters in Supernatural are incapable of completing feats that they should be able to given their AP. For instance, God very explicitly scales to the Darkness, but is incapable of fully resetting the multiverse - While the darkness can. Similarly, the darkness struggles to create universes and entities of her own. Archangels most probably cannot accomplish destructive feats in line with their AP.

What other characters would be altered given this change?
The original death scales above the archangels and God Castiel. Hence, he should also be changed to low 2-C.

Also...
This is my first post here. If I made a mistake in my analysis, writing, etc then please let me know!

If it seems people here generally agree with my contention then I'd be willing to make the relevant alterations myself.

 

[Legion350]

So, I have a few questions after looking at your post. Firstly has Hell been confirmed to be anywhere near Universal in size? I know you mentioned If not the I don’t think it can count as a support feat. I may be wrong on this, but L2C requires the space time to uni sized otherwise small pocket dimensions would qualify. Also, if The Darkness was weakened then how can it be sure that she still was at (2-C levels). Granted I haven’t watched the show in some time, so if missed something obvious let me know. That being said, I’m neutral on your main claim of Low 2-C for Archangels at the moment. As a side note, I think Billie and Jesse would need to be upgraded if this is accepted as well.

 

[Panache_x]

My primary contention here is the tiering of Lucifer and the other archangels/ Jack/ God Castiel. Currently the archangels are listed as either 3-B or 3-A, but there is good reason to believe they are low 2-C.

Feats:

1st: Lucifer (When empowered by Jack's grace) claimed to be capable of "Unraveling the universe", and other characters in the show (Including the highly knowledgeable alternate world Michael) believed him capable of doing so. Season 13: Episode 23 - Let the Good Times Roll.

2nd: Lucifer was capable of damaging Amara/ The Darkness (Albeit after she was weakened by 4 powerful witches, a large quantity of demons, and a group smite from heaven). Given that Amara ranks as 2-C, it's reasonable to believe that this feat places Lucifer as ~low 2-C. Season 11: Episode 23 - We Happy Few.

3rd: Castiel (While powered by the souls of purgatory) claimed to be capable of destroying all of hell, which follows a different flow of time to the material world (Dean spent 20 years in hell, while only one year seemingly passed from Sam's perspective back on earth). If Castiel is honest here, he is very clearly low 2-C. Season 7: Episode 1 - Meet the New Boss.

4th: Gabriel has been shown repeatedly capable of creating a pocket dimension which flowed at a different rate of time to the rest of the universe (While Sam and Dean were in his televised dimension, they had only lived through a handful of programs before Castiel stated they had been gone for days). Season 5: Episode 8 - Changing channels. Additionally, he was capable of creating a 6 month long time loop containing the entirety of the USA. Season 3: Episode 11 - Mystery Spot. While none of these feats show Gabriel creating universe-sized pocket dimensions, he is very clearly capable of creating and altering 4-dimensional spaces. It's also important to keep in mind he is either the weakest, or second weakest, archangel.

But do they all scale to one another?

All the archangels should scale to one another. Michael and Lucifer are very explicitly stated to be on a similar level of power. Gabriel is also stated as being capable of killing Lucifer season 5: Episode 19. They are also all referred to in the show on mass - An archangel can do this, an archangel would be capable of that, etc. It's reasonable to scale them together.

Jack Kline and God Castiel are slightly harder to scale. God Castiel killed Gabriel without any effort, but also believes that Lucifer/ Michael would pose difficulty for him if released from The Cage. Clearly, God Castiel should scale to Archangels - But it may be that Archangels do not necessary scale to God Castiel. Jack also overpowers archangels many times in the series with little effort, but true-vessel Michael is shown to be capable of fighting fairly evenly with Lucifer while powered by Jack's grace.

At the very least, including archangel blades, Raphael, Jack, Gabriel, Lucifer, and Michael should all scale to one another, since they all possess weapons capable of killing an each-other.

Counterarguments:

Feat X does not concern a whole universe sized space/ does not affect a 4 dimensional space:
(Example: Lucifer's universe-unraveling feat is not stated to unravel time/ Gabriel's feats are concerned with at-most concerned with country-sized pocket dimensions)

First of all: It is unclear whether Gabriel altered the universe's flow of time (Which is very clearly a universe-scale feat), or whether he created a country sized pocket dimension.

Second of all: It is usually assumed that, if a character is stated as "Capable of destroying a universe", then they are destroying space-time continuum of a universe - unless otherwise stated. See: Goku's low 2-C feat.

Third of all: That is why I included all four of these feats. Through Gabriel's feats, it is clear archangels can create/ alter 4 dimensional spaces. Through Lucifer's feat (With Jack's grace), it is clear that archangels can alter/ destroy universe-sized objects (Or at least deal damage to entities that can alter/ destroy universe-sized objects). Through Lucifer's solo feat, it is clear archangels can damage 2-C tier entities (The darkness). While no feat explicitly show an archangel creating a universe-sized, 4 dimensional space, the simplest explanation for all these individual feats is that archangels are low 2-C.

It would have taken Lucifer 7-10 days to unravel the universe:
Taking 7-10 days to destroy a 4 dimensional space is still going to rank a character at low 2-C. There is a reason High 3-A is a completely different tier to low 2-C: No matter how much damage you can do to 3-dimensional objects, it is still not necessarily true that you will be able to alter/ destroy a 4-dimensional object. Since Lucifer could alter/ destroy a 4-dimensional object, his feat should still be counted as low 2-C, even if it's a relatively weak low 2-C feat.

Are these feats consistent?
There are many inconsistencies in supernatural, especially among its more powerful characters. The points remains that archangels most consistently fit in low 2-C. Putting them anywhere else would ignore too many feats and statements in the show. There's also nothing in the show that so much as implies they are anything below low 2-C.

Why does Lucifer need Jack's power to destroy the universe if he is universal himself?
Many characters in Supernatural are incapable of completing feats that they should be able to given their AP. For instance, God very explicitly scales to the Darkness, but is incapable of fully resetting the multiverse - While the darkness can. Similarly, the darkness struggles to create universes and entities of her own. Archangels most probably cannot accomplish destructive feats in line with their AP.

What other characters would be altered given this change?
The original death scales above the archangels and God Castiel. Hence, he should also be changed to low 2-C.

Also...
This is my first post here. If I made a mistake in my analysis, writing, etc then please let me know!

If it seems people here generally agree with my contention then I'd be willing to make the relevant alterations myself.

Ok...
That term "Unravel" what was the context behind it?
And u also have to validate the size of hell (can fulfill this with a weak comparison of it and the normal Universe.. would still be ok cause it has a high tendency of being same size)

Then if u can't solidify the size of the pocket dimensions
It'll just be Pocket Reality Manipulation and nothing concerning a L2C feat

Then I'm not on board with that "if the Character is said to destroy the universe = automatically Space Time continuum includes
I think Goku's had more context to it than just "destroy the universe"

 

[CosmicWreck]

My primary contention here is the tiering of Lucifer and the other archangels/ Jack/ God Castiel. Currently the archangels are listed as either 3-B or 3-A, but there is good reason to believe they are low 2-C.

Feats:

1st: Lucifer (When empowered by Jack's grace) claimed to be capable of "Unraveling the universe", and other characters in the show (Including the highly knowledgeable alternate world Michael) believed him capable of doing so. Season 13: Episode 23 - Let the Good Times Roll.

This is more of Jack feat though isn't? Also not enough evidence for it to be effecting space-time.

Second of all: It is usually assumed that, if a character is stated as "Capable of destroying a universe", then they are destroying space-time continuum of a universe - unless otherwise stated. See: Goku's low 2-C feat.

I so hate it when people use feats from other franchises to argue their points simply because they usually ignore a ton of context involved.

First, Goku has one universe destroying feat which is not treated as effecting space-time.

Second, Goku's only low 2-C feats are all based on powerscaling and shaking the world of void which contains a stadium meant to withstand the battle between gods of destruction. If you mean this then it is an exceptionally bad comparison because Whis said the world of void has no time and space at all.

Third, you have that backwards. We need evidence that space-time is effected since universe destruction feats can go anywhere from 3-A to tier 0. We have never done otherwise, and as I've already pointed out Goku is a not an example of this at all.

2nd: Lucifer was capable of damaging Amara/ The Darkness (Albeit after she was weakened by 4 powerful witches, a large quantity of demons, and a group smite from heaven). Given that Amara ranks as 2-C, it's reasonable to believe that this feat places Lucifer as ~low 2-C. Season 11: Episode 23 - We Happy Few.

This scene was rife with PIS iirc. Also a downscaling 2-C character is still 2-C which is too high of a rating to be based on this alone and it is obviously not consistent with the usual depictions of the archangels.

In this story arc the archangels are treated as being threats to Amora and being one of the core reasons she was defeated anyway. This is incredibly out of place considering they later treated universe busting as impressive and Death, an arguably weaker entity, treated Lucifer as a child.

3rd: Castiel (While powered by the souls of purgatory) claimed to be capable of destroying all of hell, which follows a different flow of time to the material world (Dean spent 20 years in hell, while only one year seemingly passed from Sam's perspective back on earth). If Castiel is honest here, he is very clearly low 2-C. Season 7: Episode 1 - Meet the New Boss.

So, I have a few questions after looking at your post. Firstly has Hell been confirmed to be anywhere near Universal in size? I know you mentioned If not the I don’t think it can count as a support feat. I may be wrong on this, but L2C requires the space time to uni sized otherwise small pocket dimensions would qualify. Also, if The Darkness was weakened then how can it be sure that she still was at (2-C levels). Granted I haven’t watched the show in some time, so if missed something obvious let me know. That being said, I’m neutral on your main claim of Low 2-C for Archangels at the moment. As a side note, I think Billie and Jesse would need to be upgraded if this is accepted as well.

Hell was never stated to have a defined size if I remember correctly. Though there were some very powerful entities that apparently were sealed away "infinitely below" I can't say that describes the size of hell and not just that: Hell is an infinite distance from the human world. Hard to say tbh.

4th: Gabriel has been shown repeatedly capable of creating a pocket dimension which flowed at a different rate of time to the rest of the universe (While Sam and Dean were in his televised dimension, they had only lived through a handful of programs before Castiel stated they had been gone for days). Season 5: Episode 8 - Changing channels. Additionally, he was capable of creating a 6 month long time loop containing the entirety of the USA. Season 3: Episode 11 - Mystery Spot. While none of these feats show Gabriel creating universe-sized pocket dimensions, he is very clearly capable of creating and altering 4-dimensional spaces. It's also important to keep in mind he is either the weakest, or second weakest, archangel.

I know you already addressed this issue but I still think that feat is useless here. Creating a time loop isn't even AP related tbh. It's a hax feat. I'm not even sure if there was stated range for it in that episode.

Dean and Sam being gone for days are not indications that time exists in that universe. Just that the flow of time of the original universe is irrelevant there which is not the same thing.

But do they all scale to one another?

All the archangels should scale to one another. Michael and Lucifer are very explicitly stated to be on a similar level of power. Gabriel is also stated as being capable of killing Lucifer season 5: Episode 19. They are also all referred to in the show on mass - An archangel can do this, an archangel would be capable of that, etc. It's reasonable to scale them together.

Jack Kline and God Castiel are slightly harder to scale. God Castiel killed Gabriel without any effort, but also believes that Lucifer/ Michael would pose difficulty for him if released from The Cage. Clearly, God Castiel should scale to Archangels - But it may be that Archangels do not necessary scale to God Castiel. Jack also overpowers archangels many times in the series with little effort, but true-vessel Michael is shown to be capable of fighting fairly evenly with Lucifer while powered by Jack's grace.

At the very least, including archangel blades, Raphael, Jack, Gabriel, Lucifer, and Michael should all scale to one another, since they all possess weapons capable of killing an each-other.

Slight correction here. God Castiel killed Raphael, not Gabriel. Gabriel wasn't even dead at the time.

If an upgrade is to be had I would say just make them all baseline 3-A instead of power-scaling to gods they never interacted with.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Gabriel creating pocket dimensions with all having different flow of time doesn't mean all Archangels can do it at a Universal scale, ur basically taking what they can do at X scale and using to say they can on a 9999X scale, that doesn't work

1st: Lucifer (When empowered by Jack's grace) claimed to be capable of "Unraveling the universe", and other characters in the show (Including the highly knowledgeable alternate world Michael) believed him capable of doing so. Season 13: Episode 23 - Let the Good Times Roll.

That's 3-B without a proper timeframe, and we could assume Space Time but only based on your Gabriel's logic, and that logic can't be used as it uses an assumption

2nd: Lucifer was capable of damaging Amara/ The Darkness (Albeit after she was weakened by 4 powerful witches, a large quantity of demons, and a group smite from heaven). Given that Amara ranks as 2-C, it's reasonable to believe that this feat places Lucifer as ~low 2-C. Season 11: Episode 23 - We Happy Few.

There is no reason to "downscale" this feat to Low 2-C, damaging someone who's 2-C is either 2-C or an Outlier, assuming Low 2-C is arbitrary

Thing is, if she's Weakened, it's hard to pin point this feat since we can't give her a proper tier. If she wasn't that weakened, the feat would be 2-C scaling from her, simple as that, or, an outlier

3rd: Castiel (While powered by the souls of purgatory) claimed to be capable of destroying all of hell, which follows a different flow of time to the material world (Dean spent 20 years in hell, while only one year seemingly passed from Sam's perspective back on earth). If Castiel is honest here, he is very clearly low 2-C. Season 7: Episode 1 - Meet the New Boss.

Indeed this one sounds Low 2-C

4th: Gabriel has been shown repeatedly capable of creating a pocket dimension which flowed at a different rate of time to the rest of the universe (While Sam and Dean were in his televised dimension, they had only lived through a handful of programs before Castiel stated they had been gone for days). Season 5: Episode 8 - Changing channels. Additionally, he was capable of creating a 6 month long time loop containing the entirety of the USA. Season 3: Episode 11 - Mystery Spot. While none of these feats show Gabriel creating universe-sized pocket dimensions, he is very clearly capable of creating and altering 4-dimensional spaces. It's also important to keep in mind he is either the weakest, or second weakest, archangel

Yes, but like I said, manipulating Space-Time in a Country range doesn't mean you can on a Universal range

Jack Kline and God Castiel are slightly harder to scale. God Castiel killed Gabriel without any effort, but also believes that Lucifer/ Michael would pose difficulty for him if released from The Cage. Clearly, God Castiel should scale to Archangels - But it may be that Archangels do not necessary scale to God Castiel. Jack also overpowers archangels many times in the series with little effort, but true-vessel Michael is shown to be capable of fighting fairly evenly with Lucifer while powered by Jack's grace.

If God Castiel can snap away Raphael, and apparently "All Archangels scale to each other", then Michael and Lucifer can't scale to God Castiel

Basically, your saying all 4 are around equal, yet they should scale to one guy who one shotted one of them. There are many other reasons for God Castiel to feat Lucifer or Michael than just power, after all, they are ancient beings with vast knowledge of the world and creation, they (as they did multiple times) can find a way to go against Cass, but that wouldn't make them scale, it all depends on the method

My take ? If he can snap away Raphael, that means the others are not on his level

First of all: It is unclear whether Gabriel altered the universe's flow of time (Which is very clearly a universe-scale feat), or whether he created a country sized pocket dimension.

The problem here is assuming anything higher than what we know, which is not at Universal range

Second of all: It is usually assumed that, if a character is stated as "Capable of destroying a universe", then they are destroying space-time continuum of a universe - unless otherwise stated. See: Goku's low 2-C feat.

Goku's feat is listed as 3-A, that's the standard without further details

Third of all: That is why I included all four of these feats. Through Gabriel's feats, it is clear archangels can create/ alter 4 dimensional spaces. Through Lucifer's feat (With Jack's grace), it is clear that archangels can alter/ destroy universe-sized objects (Or at least deal damage to entities that can alter/ destroy universe-sized objects). Through Lucifer's solo feat, it is clear archangels can damage 2-C tier entities (The darkness). While no feat explicitly show an archangel creating a universe-sized, 4 dimensional space, the simplest explanation for all these individual feats is that archangels are low 2-C.

Already covered this

It would have taken Lucifer 7-10 days to unravel the universe:
Taking 7-10 days to destroy a 4 dimensional space is still going to rank a character at low 2-C. There is a reason High 3-A is a completely different tier to low 2-C: No matter how much damage you can do to 3-dimensional objects, it is still not necessarily true that you will be able to alter/ destroy a 4-dimensional object. Since Lucifer could alter/ destroy a 4-dimensional object, his feat should still be counted as low 2-C, even if it's a relatively weak low 2-C feat.

Thing is, we don't know if he was going to erase Space and Time

Are these feats consistent?
There are many inconsistencies in supernatural, especially among its more powerful characters. The points remains that archangels most consistently fit in low 2-C. Putting them anywhere else would ignore too many feats and statements in the show. There's also nothing in the show that so much as implies they are anything below low 2-C.

Agree that it has many inconsistencies

Why does Lucifer need Jack's power to destroy the universe if he is universal himself?
Many characters in Supernatural are incapable of completing feats that they should be able to given their AP. For instance, God very explicitly scales to the Darkness, but is incapable of fully resetting the multiverse - While the darkness can. Similarly, the darkness struggles to create universes and entities of her own. Archangels most probably cannot accomplish destructive feats in line with their AP.

That is the case indeed, sometimes Area of Effect and Attack Potency are different

What other characters would be altered given this change?
The original death scales above the archangels and God Castiel. Hence, he should also be changed to low 2-C.

They should never killed that guy

Overall, I agree with Low 2-C God Castiel, but scaling that to the Archangels is a push in my opinion, it could be possible to scale to Michael and Lucifer, but only if they are far stronger than Raphael (And Gabriel by that), since he absolutely can't scale to Cass since he was one shotted by the angel

 

[Rabbit2002]

Wow The verse didn't die, at least in this Time lol!!!
Anyway neutral (for Amara Part, i will make a crt to buff all of God tiers, include her to 2A so i don't think it's useful to support l2c for archangels)

 

[Demetersson]

This seems like a fair take, honestly. I did contradict myself. If God Castiel's completely overpowers Gabriel/ Raphael, and Michael /Lucifer are comparable to him, then Gabriel/ Raphael are not comparable to them. I only have a couple gripes.

Gabriel creating pocket dimensions with all having different flow of time doesn't mean all Archangels can do it at a Universal scale, ur basically taking what they can do at X scale and using to say they can on a 9999X scale, that doesn't work

I briefly mentioned this, but probably didn't emphasize it enough. It isn't made clear if Gabriel was creating pocket dimensions or altering the time-stream itself. If Gabriel really was reversing/ repeating all of time, then I think that may count as a universal feat. Not sure about that though. If it does, it warrants a "Possibly low 2-C".

There is no reason to "downscale" this feat to Low 2-C, damaging someone who's 2-C is either 2-C or an Outlier, assuming Low 2-C is arbitrary

My thought process was: This makes the witches + the angels + Lucifer + a couple hundred demons 2-C. Assuming low 2-C is equivilant to some fraction of 2-C, then it makes sense to put Lucifer there. Your outlier claim is probably correct, in retrospect, as Lucifer was shown earlier in S11 getting beaten by Amara with little effort.

Indeed this one sounds Low 2-C

Glad to see we agree. I think that + the annihilating Raphael with a click feat warrants at least a "Possible low 2-C" statement.

Thing is, we don't know if he was going to erase Space and Time

Goku's feat is listed as 3-A, that's the standard without further details

That's my mistake, I misread.

Overall, I agree with Low 2-C God Castiel, but scaling that to the Archangels is a push in my opinion, it could be possible to scale to Michael and Lucifer, but only if they are far stronger than Raphael (And Gabriel by that), since he absolutely can't scale to Cass since he was one shotted by the angel

I think that a possibly low 2-C key is warranted for at least Michael/ Lucifer.

 

[Demetersson]

This is more of Jack feat though isn't? Also not enough evidence for it to be effecting space-time.

Yes, my goal was to scale the other archangels to Jack.

Third, you have that backwards. We need evidence that space-time is effected since universe destruction feats can go anywhere from 3-A to tier 0. We have never done otherwise, and as I've already pointed out Goku is a not an example of this at all.

My mistake. Apologies. Like I said, a little new here.

In this story arc the archangels are treated as being threats to Amora and being one of the core reasons she was defeated anyway. This is incredibly out of place considering they later treated universe busting as impressive and Death, an arguably weaker entity, treated Lucifer as a child.

The difference between an adult's strength and a child's strength is not as large as the difference between low 2-C/ 2-C and 3-A. In the show, the archangels are generally by the other primordials (God, Death, and Amara) as children/ extremely weak people rather than insects or bacterium (As all other creatures in the show appear to the primordials). This implies the archangels are much closer to the primordials in power than they are to the rest of creation.

Slight correction here. God Castiel killed Raphael, not Gabriel. Gabriel wasn't even dead at the time

Yeah, sorry, my bad.

If an upgrade is to be had I would say just make them all baseline 3-A instead of power-scaling to gods they never interacted with.

This seems fair. Except for God Castiel, I maintain he should be held to low 2-C at least. I didn't put this in my original post, but he was powered by 50,000,000 souls, whereas it was stated that only ~250,000 would be necessary to kill Amara (If I remember correctly). Assuming this is a vast understatement of Amara's power, it would still make God Castiel at a similar level of power to the other primordials.

 

[Demetersson]

And u also have to validate the size of hell (can fulfill this with a weak comparison of it and the normal Universe.. would still be ok cause it has a high tendency of being same size)

There are many times hell is shown to be a wide expanse with no end in sight, so it's at least as wide as a horizon (Or a few). There are a few times monsters/ characters are sent "Infinitely below" but it's unclear whether that's infinitely far down in hell, or to say that hell is infinitely far away. I prefer the prior interpretation since well... Hell isn't infinitely far away. It's a different realm. This, plus a "A weak comparison of it and the normal universe" like you said makes it more likely that hell is as large as the universe (Or larger) than smaller.

It'll just be Pocket Reality Manipulation and nothing concerning a L2C feat

I don't think I clarified this enough, but it's at least a pocket dimension manipulation feat. It's not stated whether Sam was in a pocket dimension for 6 months, or whether Gabriel completely pulled the whole universe back 6 months.

 

[Demetersson]

So, I have a few questions after looking at your post. Firstly has Hell been confirmed to be anywhere near Universal in size? I know you mentioned If not the I don’t think it can count as a support feat. I may be wrong on this, but L2C requires the space time to uni sized otherwise small pocket dimensions would qualify. Also, if The Darkness was weakened then how can it be sure that she still was at (2-C levels). Granted I haven’t watched the show in some time, so if missed something obvious let me know. That being said, I’m neutral on your main claim of Low 2-C for Archangels at the moment. As a side note, I think Billie and Jesse would need to be upgraded if this is accepted as well.

I commented on many of these questions in response to others. I consider it more likely that Lucifer was strong enough to hurt a still ~2-C darkness than it is that heaven, demons, and witches were strong enough to damage the darkness out of tier 2.

With everything in mind, who would be in favour of buffing God Castiel to low 2-C, who would be in favour of buffing the archangels to 3-A, who would be in favour of putting (Possible 2-C) on God Castiel, and who would be in favour of putting (Possible low 2-C) on the archangels?

 

[Panache_x]

There are many times hell is shown to be a wide expanse with no end in sight, so it's at least as wide as a horizon (Or a few). There are a few times monsters/ characters are sent "Infinitely below" but it's unclear whether that's infinitely far down in hell, or to say that hell is infinitely far away. I prefer the prior interpretation since well... Hell isn't infinitely far away. It's a different realm. This, plus a "A weak comparison of it and the normal universe" like you said makes it more likely that hell is as large as the universe (Or larger) than smaller.

Oh no
Showing a large expanse with no seemingly end to the viewer perspective Doesn't Grant a Universal Sized Structure of any kind.. neither is it a comparison to a Universe
And that "infinitely below" I think that's just figurative giving it's Hell that's being discussed.
And nahh...u didn't drop a comparison between both structures
U just listed qualities of Hell
U'll need something stronger

Then I also need the context behind that "Unravel" term
How was it applied
A clip would be perfect

 

[Panache_x]

I don't think I clarified this enough, but it's at least a pocket dimension manipulation feat. It's not stated whether Sam was in a pocket dimension for 6 months, or whether Gabriel completely pulled the whole universe back 6 months.

Yh
That's just Pocket Reality Manipulation sInce there's nothing accounting it's size
U just repeated what I said.. it's PRM

 

[Demetersson]

Yh
That's just Pocket Reality Manipulation sInce there's nothing accounting it's size
U just repeated what I said.. it's PRM

I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm saying...
Is pushing the whole universe (The standard universe, not a pocket dimension you created) back 6 months in time PRM?

 

[Panache_x]

I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm saying...
Is pushing the whole universe (The standard universe, not a pocket dimension you created) back 6 months in time PRM?

That's just Time Manipulation

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I briefly mentioned this, but probably didn't emphasize it enough. It isn't made clear if Gabriel was creating pocket dimensions or altering the time-stream itself. If Gabriel really was reversing/ repeating all of time, then I think that may count as a universal feat. Not sure about that though. If it does, it warrants a "Possibly low 2-C".

Well, it's possible yeah, but take a look at the Time Manipulation page on the wiki, a Time Stop, reversal or loop may be of Universal range as it uses time itself, but it isn't a Low 2-C feat because, in the end, it's hax. No character in the wiki has this rating by doing what Gabriel does as far as I know

My thought process was: This makes the witches + the angels + Lucifer + a couple hundred demons 2-C. Assuming low 2-C is equivilant to some fraction of 2-C, then it makes sense to put Lucifer there. Your outlier claim is probably correct, in retrospect, as Lucifer was shown earlier in S11 getting beaten by Amara with little effort.

Thing is, Low 2-C isn't a fraction of 2-C, their difference is Immeasurable, if three characters fight a 2-C together, their feat is 2-C

Didn't the archangels helped God against Amara ? That's another potential 2-C scaling

Glad to see we agree. I think that + the annihilating Raphael with a click feat warrants at least a "Possible low 2-C" statement.

Honestly ? God Castiel seems easily Low 2-C for me, we know he's not lying because Universal/Almost Universal feats from beings weaker than him are done over the series, so him being Low 2-C is consistent, no need of possibly

I think that a possibly low 2-C key is warranted for at least Michael/ Lucifer.

So, my suggestion

God Castiel: Low 2-C
Michael and Lucifer: At least X (Stronger than Gabriel and Raphael), possibly Low 2-C (God Castiel wanted to avoid a fight against them)
Gabriel and Raphael: X

We need to talk about what X is, it must be a feat that doesn't come from Michael, Lucifer or Cass, or, in a lack of options, we can downscale them, however I'm not really a fan of that method is this case, since Downscale is for characters close in power, and the difference between them is, as we agreed, rather significant

Or, we can put all of them at "At most 2-C" for Lucifer harming Amara + Archangels fighting against her in that past war, however this scaling may be a bit of an outlier

 

[Tyranno223]

Scaling them to Amara is a bit awkward since beings she can one shot (like Jack) can easily destroy Archangels. A "collectively 2-C" tier might work.

 

[Demetersson]

That's just Time Manipulation

Well, it's possible yeah, but take a look at the Time Manipulation page on the wiki, a Time Stop, reversal or loop may be of Universal range as it uses time itself, but it isn't a Low 2-C feat because, in the end, it's hax. No character in the wiki has this rating by doing what Gabriel does as far as I know

Thanks for the help here.

Thing is, Low 2-C isn't a fraction of 2-C, their difference is Immeasurable, if three characters fight a 2-C together, their feat is 2-C

I was getting the idea that Low 2-C was a fraction of 2-C from these two lines on the tiering system page.

Low 2-C: "A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified."

2-C: "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents."

This seems to imply that 2-C is between "To to a thousand" times more powerful than low 2-C.

Didn't the archangels helped God against Amara ? That's another potential 2-C scaling

I was actually skeptical of this feat, since it's unclear whether the archangels fought Amara, or simply helped in the creation of a spell that could bind her/ the Mark of Cain. There are lines in the show that imply both. Lucifer's attack on Amara is much more explicitly "I stabbed her and it hurt".

It's also important to keep in mind that this was before God created the multiverse, so the archangels who were helping him may have been more powerful than the ones we see in the show.

Honestly ? God Castiel seems easily Low 2-C for me, we know he's not lying because Universal/Almost Universal feats from beings weaker than him are done over the series, so him being Low 2-C is consistent, no need of possibly

This would also bump Death up to low 2-C, as he was powerful enough that Castiel didn't want to fight him. Which is a much more consistent tiering than his current position, since he is stated as being comparable to God.

We need to talk about what X is, it must be a feat that doesn't come from Michael, Lucifer or Cass, or, in a lack of options, we can downscale them, however I'm not really a fan of that method is this case, since Downscale is for characters close in power, and the difference between them is, as we agreed, rather significant

Currently, Gabriel/ Raphael are tiered at 3-B. If we remove them being comparable to Michael and Lucifer, that makes their only real justification for this tier is being "Far superior to [g]ods such as Yokoth and Glythur". Yokoth and Glyther are both pagan's capable of destroying galaxies (Or, so they claim). This tiering seems fairly consistent for the two of them, so a "At least 3-B, possibly low 2-C" might work?

Scaling them to Amara is a bit awkward since beings she can one shot (like Jack) can easily destroy Archangels. A "collectively 2-C" tier might work.

Here is where Supernatural gets weird.
Most consistently, primordials in the show find archangels significantly more difficult to contend with than pretty much anything else. When God killed Michael, it took a few straight seconds of him focusing on the archangel. Similarly, Amara must find at least some difficulty killing archangels, since she didn't just instantly kill them all when they posed a challenge (Not to mention the Lucifer feat). God' feat of one-shotting Jack seems to be the outlier here, and most likely the result of some unique weakness Jack possesses (Being half human makes him extra vulnerable to certain attacks, God already had a contingency plan/ spell that would kill Jack with little effort, etc).

 

[Demetersson]

Supernatural definitely needs a new respect page though, since the current one is outdated as hell.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Thanks for the help here.

I was getting the idea that Low 2-C was a fraction of 2-C from these two lines on the tiering system page.

Low 2-C: "A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified."

2-C: "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents."

This seems to imply that 2-C is between "To to a thousand" times more powerful than low 2-C.

Nah. You missed this note on that same page.

Note 1:

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A.

At tier 2 and above infinity, multipliers and down-scaling kind of lose some of their meaning as a tier-able concept.

I was actually skeptical of this feat, since it's unclear whether the archangels fought Amara, or simply helped in the creation of a spell that could bind her/ the Mark of Cain. There are lines in the show that imply both. Lucifer's attack on Amara is much more explicitly "I stabbed her and it hurt".

Amara also had problems dealing with a couple of demons, a witch and the heavenly host. But still posed a threat to god who later had no issue destroying entire universes. I would bark scaling anyone to Amara based on that part of the story arc since she was simply so inconsistent there, not to mention as I stated before, universe busting was deemed impressive by archangels much later in the series so it doesn't really make any sense contextually speaking.

Also, before I forget....

This seems fair. Except for God Castiel, I maintain he should be held to low 2-C at least. I didn't put this in my original post, but he was powered by 50,000,000 souls, whereas it was stated that only ~250,000 would be necessary to kill Amara (If I remember correctly). Assuming this is a vast understatement of Amara's power, it would still make God Castiel at a similar level of power to the other primordials.

That would be 2-C and yeah, I admit I completely forgot about that. That would also make God Castiel way more powerful than any other character in the show though, and thus contradicts everything, like Death being able to kill him...and probably would lead to very bad circular scaling. It was also a statement that we never really got to see proven since Dean never went through with the whole exploding souls plan. Considering they never thought to use that against Chuck kind of makes me think it wasn't true anyway.

It's also important to keep in mind that this was before God created the multiverse, so the archangels who were helping him may have been more powerful than the ones we see in the show.

This might have been possible if it was ever implied but it wasn't. In fact it was heavily contradicted. Remember God said Amara destroyed many of his universes. This wouldn't make sense if she was already sealed away before the multiverse was completed.

Also, if this was true Lucifer wouldn't have acted like he wasn't important to the fight, nor would anyone have cared that most of the archangels were indisposed at that moment, except both things happened and thus, the incarnation of the archangels we saw are probably the ones that stopped the Darkness.

This would also bump Death up to low 2-C, as he was powerful enough that Castiel didn't want to fight him. Which is a much more consistent tiering than his current position, since he is stated as being comparable to God.

That would still be baseline 2-C. Death's statements also aren't backed up by feats. Billie, with all of Death's powers, needed Jack to even hope to do anything to God and before this Amara was clearly unaware of Death's existence. That kind of throws the entire idea of them somehow being comparable into question.

Here is where Supernatural gets weird.
Most consistently, primordials in the show find archangels significantly more difficult to contend with than pretty much anything else. When God killed Michael, it took a few straight seconds of him focusing on the archangel. Similarly, Amara must find at least some difficulty killing archangels, since she didn't just instantly kill them all when they posed a challenge (Not to mention the Lucifer feat). God' feat of one-shotting Jack seems to be the outlier here, and most likely the result of some unique weakness Jack possesses (Being half human makes him extra vulnerable to certain attacks, God already had a contingency plan/ spell that would kill Jack with little effort, etc).

Amara had difficulty killing anything honestly. Scaling anyone to her (based on that scene anyway) is questionable at best.

Death, an explicitly weaker being, was going to kill Castiel with a wave of his hand, kind of emphasizing he was a bug to him as Death stated despite previously killing an Archangel with a snap of his hands.

So no, God killing Jack casually is not an outlier, not to mention focusing isn't exactly an indication of struggling to do anything especially considering God manipulates the universe by writing stuff, something that very clearly needs more effort into it than simply focusing. Not to mention, we cannot possibly use this reasoning for the profile as it lacks evidence to support it.

Currently, Gabriel/ Raphael are tiered at 3-B. If we remove them being comparable to Michael and Lucifer, that makes their only real justification for this tier is being "Far superior to [g]ods such as Yokoth and Glythur". Yokoth and Glyther are both pagan's capable of destroying galaxies (Or, so they claim). This tiering seems fairly consistent for the two of them, so a "At least 3-B, possibly low 2-C" might work?

'''At least 3-B, possibly at most 2-C''' works better imo since baseline 2-C is incredibly questionable for the reasons I stated.

Also, since no one brought it up, I should point out that The empty would be upgraded too, which is good because the current scaling for it's attack potency is bs. We never place a character uncountable infinite degrees above another character based on powerscaling like that.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Currently, Gabriel/ Raphael are tiered at 3-B. If we remove them being comparable to Michael and Lucifer, that makes their only real justification for this tier is being "Far superior to [g]ods such as Yokoth and Glythur". Yokoth and Glyther are both pagan's capable of destroying galaxies (Or, so they claim). This tiering seems fairly consistent for the two of them, so a "At least 3-B, possibly low 2-C" might work?

Well, 3-B for them makes sense, the claims should be valid since it's consistent with the overall showings of the Archangels Tier

So, in my opinion, they should look like this m:

Death: At least Low 2-C (Far stronger than God Castiel)

God Castiel: Low 2-C (Capable of destroying Hell)

Michael and Lucifer: At least 3-B (Stronger than Gabriel and Raphael), possibly Low 2-C (God Castiel wanted to avoid a conflict between them)

Gabriel and Raphael: At least 3-B (Stronger than Yokoth and Glythur)

What do you guys think ?

 

[Tyranno223]

Well, 3-B for them makes sense, the claims should be valid since it's consistent with the overall showings of the Archangels Tier

So, in my opinion, they should look like this m:

Death: At least Low 2-C (Far stronger than God Castiel)

God Castiel: Low 2-C (Capable of destroying Hell)

Michael and Lucifer: At least 3-B (Stronger than Gabriel and Raphael), possibly Low 2-C (God Castiel wanted to avoid a conflict between them)

Gabriel and Raphael: At least 3-B (Stronger than Yokoth and Glythur)

What do you guys think ?

It might be worth giving Gabriel and Raphael a "possibly/likely higher" rating, as they shouldn't be incomparable to Lucifer and Michael.