Superman (Rebirth) keys and additions

[Antvasima]

Also are the NPI and key divisions good to go now?

Well, I mentioned a few required modifications to the scaling earlier above.

What would be the reasons for non-physical interaction?

 

[Transcending]

Well, I mentioned a few required modifications to the scaling earlier above.

I thought you and @Confluctor reached an agreement on it?

What would be the reasons for non-physical interaction?

It's stated in the OP

To sum it up, Superman shook the Phantom Zone in Superman(2018) #6, which was stated to be a void in Action Comics #999.

It was shown to be white and empty, like a white void

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992900641410261144/995317367443832923/Screenshot_20220709-184514.jpg

Yeah NPI deffo works

 

[Antvasima]

I thought you and @Confluctor reached an agreement on it?

Yes, here is what we agreed about:

The suggestions in the first post of this thread seem uncontroversial to apply.

However, regarding Confluctor's suggestions, I don't see how regaining his powers would make him stronger than his post-Crisis self, rather than equal, or why merging with a weaker version of himself would make him far stronger rather than just stronger.

Oh, new 52 version is not that weaker than him. They are roughly the same. Just tiny bit different. Also look at the 4-B values they scale to. It's not that different. Both are almost the same. So, even then, he is at least 2x stronger than before.

Well, a bit less than 2x stronger then, but that is not the same as "far stronger" by our standards.

Idrc tbh, just call it stronger then. The reason I said far stronger initially is because of how he is being treated throughout the stories since then. His feats has gotten a lot higher level compared to his post crisis era. But again, idrc. Stronger is fine.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Well, several of your images seem to be for the post-Flashpoint version, rather than the Rebirth version. Feel free to create a full quality render of our currently used image though.

Hmm, which ones? Afaik, they're all Rebirth. The comics they're from are all 2017 and 2018, besides the first Jim Lee one, which was an initial Rebirth design iirc.

I'll try to make a render for the current image, though I can't find an image of it in both full-size and high quality.

 

[Transcending]

Yes, here is what we agreed about:

Then there's no problem right?

 

[Antvasima]

It's stated in the OP

Well, having shockwaves from punches somehow shake the surrounding void of space is a common plot convention in fiction. I do not think that setting a precedent to treat it all as non-physical interaction without more explicit evidence seems like a good idea.

 

[Transcending]

Well, having shockwaves from punches somehow shake the surrounding void of space is a common plot convention in fiction. I do not think that setting a precedent to treat it all as non-physical interaction without more explicit evidence seems like a good idea.

I disagree. Even if it is common, it perfectly falls under the definition of NPI:

Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm.

Shaking a void is obviously interacting with it, and in the context of Superman's feat, also did some damage. So it falls under what NPI is supposed to be.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm, which ones? Afaik, they're all Rebirth. The comics they're from are all 2017 and 2018, besides the first Jim Lee one, which was an initial Rebirth design iirc.

Well, on second thought, I think that Superman did skip his red underpants for a while.

I'll try to make a render for the current image, though I can't find an image of it in both full-size and high quality.

Here is the largest one that I could find:

https://i.redd.it/l7m7szf5ptu31.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

Then there's no problem right?

Probably not, as long as what we agreed about is applied.

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree. Even if it is common, it perfectly falls under the definition in NPI:

Shaking a void is obviously interacting with it, and in the context of Superman's feat, also did some damage. So it falls under what NPI is supposed to be.

Sending shockwaves through a vacuum is more a very common plot convention in superhero stories. It has to do with that the verses do not follow our laws of physics (in this case due to the "rule of cool"), rather than a consistently displayed power to punch ghosts, grab lasers, and the like. It would be very unreliable to apply, and set an very ill-considered bad precedent (we cannot give this power to virtually all herald-level characters even though it normally has not been established otherwise) without more directly explicit examples.

 

[Confluctor]

Mate, this is the standard... Might want to change that then if that's not the case anymore. As per standards right now, he does qualify for NPI, however, a hyperspecific form of it and not the usual grabbing ghosts stuff. At worst, this would be limited NPI.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we also have to consider if something makes sense within the context of a setting, and if it sets bad far-reaching precedents or not, but if the damage has already been done with other characters that have received NPI from this, I suppose that listing a limited version is likely the least bad option here.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Alright, completed my attempt for the render.

Spoiler: The render

Looks pretty good imo, but there's definitely some imperfections

 

[Antvasima]

I think it looks great. Feel free to upload it to our wiki.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I think it looks great. Feel free to upload it to our wiki.

Thanks, and done. Glad I could help.
Will need someone else to put it on the page though, as the page is locked.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. I will handle it.

 

[Transcending]

Sending shockwaves through a vacuum is more a very common plot convention in superhero stories.

Not really relevant, by this logic, we can say just about anything is a plot convention. If someone interacted with a void, he should get NPI, simple. Obviously everything happens for the plot.

And in Superman's case, they went deeper into the specifics
Specifically stating that earthquakes were caused, and that the weight of Supes' fight was making the Phantom Zone tremble to the point everyone within the void was alerted. The fight was stated to be the moment everyone's lives had been building upto, that defines Krypton's legacy for all time. It wasn't any minor incident.

Hell, Superman later even went to the extent of saying he can destroy the Phantom Zone

rather than a consistently displayed power to punch ghosts, grab lasers

I am not saying Superman can do those, I am saying he can interact with non-existence.

set an very ill-considered bad precedent

Disagree, it would only be more accurate. When a new reader comes to Superman's page and see Superman having NPI for shaking a void, they are only going to think "this makes perfect sense". The evidence follows the claim.

Plus as Confluctor said, it follows our current standards and other staff and normal members do seem to be fine with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if we have some good supplementary evidence of other occasions where non-physical interaction was used, I suppose that it is probably fine to apply, but if all we have is a single instance of somehow sending shockwaves across a vacuum, I am definitely not going to accept it, and do not have sufficient free time to continue to argue about it. My apologies.

 

[Transcending]

Well, if we have some good supplementary evidence of other occasions where non-physical interaction was used, I suppose that it is probably fine to apply, but if all we have is a single instance of somehow sending shockwaves across a vacuum, I am definitely not going to accept it, and do not have sufficient free time to continue to argue about it. My apologies.

I will try to find more instances but for now I guess I will wait for more input before applying. The keys thing can be applied tho I believe.

 

[Antvasima]

The keys can probably be applied now, yes.

 

[Transcending]

So would these descriptions be fine?

Key 1: Although weaker than his Post-Crisis self, he is still able to battle the likes of Doomsday. In addition to this, it was reliably stated that Superman was absorbing energy on a greater scale than his New 52 counterpart, so he is likely stronger than the latter.

Key 2: Stronger than before. After regaining all his powers, he should be equal to his Post-Crisis self.

Key 3: Stronger than before. Fused with his New 52 counterpart, and as such, he should be stronger than both of his component parts.

 

[Antvasima]

That should be fine to apply, yes. Should I unlock the relevant page for you to edit now?

 

[Antvasima]

I made some changes in the wordings in your suggested text segments above.

Links to the relevant scans along with issue references would also be useful.

 

[Transcending]

I made some changes in the wordings in your suggested text segments above.

Links to the relevant scans along with issue references would also be useful.

Then how about:

Key 1: Although weaker than his Post-Crisis self, he is still able to battle the likes of Doomsday. In addition to this, it was reliably stated that Superman was absorbing energy on a greater scale than his New 52 counterpart, so he is likely stronger than the latter.

Key 2: Stronger than before. After regaining all his powers, he should be equal to his Post-Crisis self.

Key 3: Stronger than before. Fused with his New 52 counterpart, and as such, he should be stronger than both of his component parts.

All references are given in the Imgur albums.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems fine to apply.

 

[Transcending]

As for the names of the keys, how about:

Key 1- Before embracing his new world

Key 2- Pre-Reborn

Key 3- Post-Reborn

 

[Antvasima]

How about something like this?

Initially | Pre-Fusion | Post-Fusion

 

[Transcending]

How about somethibg like this?

Initially | Pre-Fusion | Post-Fusion

I guess that's too.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

The justification looks good in my book (though you could add Initial Rebirth Supes being above the N52 JL). The key names Ant suggested seem good to me as well.

 

[Transcending]

Also, as more evidence for NPI, what do you think about Superman smashing through Neron's void?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

In the DeMatteis comic? I'm fairly certain that was a dream or not a physical Superman, but I read the comic 2 years ago, so I might be mistaken. On his profile he already has NPI for attacking intangible/phasing characters, though it's shown in this scan that only his Heat Vision can affect non-physical characters.

 

[Transcending]

In the DeMatteis comic? I'm fairly certain that was a dream or

Iirc the realities within the void were illusions (though DeMatteis said they can be interpreted as being illusions and real at the same time) but the actual void wasn't.

 

[Transcending]

On his profile he already has NPI for attacking intangible/phasing characters, though it's shown in this scan that only his Heat Vision can affect non-physical characters.

Rebirth Supes though, affected the Phantom Zone with his punches. Could be an effect of N52 Supes since Rebirth is PC+N52.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Rebirth Supes though, affected the Phantom Zone with his punches. Could be an effect of N52 Supes since Rebirth is PC+N52.

I see, I'm neutral as far as the Phantom Zone stuff goes, though it would still mean Post-Crisis probably doesn't have NPI with physical attacks. From what I recall from the Neron issue, the void directly linked to the illusions, and was changing Superman's shape/appearance, so I'm not sure if it applies.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

The agreed upon content of Superman's new statistics keys can probably be applied now, with my suggested titles for them, but not non-physical interaction, for reasons that I have mentioned previously, unless somebody presents more conclusive evidence of this.

 

[Transcending]

I won't apply NPI now but most people do agree with it, so with a bit more input it should be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

A single instance of the common plot convention of sending shockwaves through a vacuum is not remotely sufficient to prove that it was an intentionally established ability by any writer, much less a somewhat consistently displayed one.

Sorry, but I am going to continue to reject that suggestion until somebody proves to me that Superman can use it in practice against ghosts or other non-physical beings.

For example, the Martian Manhunter has had no problems phasing through Superman in the past if I remember correctly.

 

[Transcending]

A single instance of the common plot convention of sending shockwaves through a vacuum is not remotely sufficient to prove that it was an intentionally established ability by any writer, much less a somewhat consistently displayed one

I already addressed this argument before:

Not really relevant, by this logic, we can say just about anything is a plot convention. If someone interacted with a void, he should get NPI, simple. Obviously everything happens for the plot.

And in Superman's case, they went deeper into the specifics
Specifically stating that earthquakes were caused, and that the weight of Supes' fight was making the Phantom Zone tremble to the point everyone within the void was alerted. The fight was stated to be the moment everyone's lives had been building upto, that defines Krypton's legacy for all time. It wasn't any minor incident.

Hell, Superman later even went to the extent of saying he can destroy the Phantom Zone

I am not saying Superman can do those, I am saying he can interact with non-existence.

Disagree, it would only be more accurate. When a new reader comes to Superman's page and see Superman having NPI for shaking a void, they are only going to think "this makes perfect sense". The evidence follows the claim.

Plus as Confluctor said, it follows our current standards and other staff and normal members do seem to be fine with it.

Sorry, but I am going to continue to reject that suggestion until somebody proves to me that Superman can use it in practice against ghosts or other non-physical beings.

As I have said before, just like Confluctor, I am not arguing that Superman can hit ghosts, I am arguing he can interact with non-existence

I am not saying Superman can do those, I am saying he can interact with non-existence.

As per standards right now, he does qualify for NPI, however, a hyperspecific form of it and not the usual grabbing ghosts stuff.

For example, the Martian Manhunter has had no problems phasing through Superman in the past if I remember correctly.

In Rebirth?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Limited NPI that works specifically on non-existence seems fine to list. Just specify that it doesn't work on ghosts or incorporeal beings if that's the issue.