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Suicidal stand user meets an empath

Would this Evil Empath even try to stop Thunder from killing himself once she uses her powers and discovers that he really just wants to die? There is no info given either, so... what? I don't think he even realized HtH was a thing until Ermes pointed it out to him which made him want to kill himself even harder, so even if she uses her telepathy, she won't have a notion of his stand existence until she starts dying from Thunder's attempts to commit not life... Also, I am pretty sure even if Cherish had a gun and immediately shot him in the head after talking with him, if Thunder takes notice of her and begins to form some semblance of opinion towards her, there is a huge chance she'll be affected by it and would die or starts to die in the same way as that guy that also shares a similar name with a Cars Character.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Would this Evil Empath even try to stop Thunder from killing himself once she uses her powers and discovers that he really just wants to die?
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She is rather sadistic and would empathically make him want to instead torture himself. If that transfers, she'll quickly realize the problem and instead makes him not suicidal
 
Counterpoint: FTL Combat Speed Rating which is separate from his normal rating. So she might not be able to do shit once the transfer starts... Although, let's ignore that and say that Thunder is made not suicidal, then what? Who wins? What's the win-con for either of them?
 
I am pretty sure - though numerous threads in questions & answers - that while speeds are equalized, characters with multiple speeds will still have the same proportion of speeds. So if someone's travel and reactions are 2x apart, they'll still be 2x apart even with SE. So it won't do shit. Plus, is that victory even allowed here? The only win-cons I know of are by killing, knocking the other unconscious, or incaping an opponent for 1-24 hours.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
I am pretty sure - though numerous threads in questions & answers - that while speeds are equalized, characters with multiple speeds will still have the same proportion of speeds.
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"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character" ~Versus Thread Rules. Thunder McQueen's FTL is on his Combat Speed
FantaRin_The_First said:
The only win-cons I know of are by killing, knocking the other unconscious, or incaping an opponent for 1-24 hours.
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I mean, telling someone to go away does count as BFR which is a wincon. Also

"putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s)"~Victory Conditions, SBA. Making them give up is a state where he doesn't want to inflict harm
 
There's talk in this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/changing-the-standard-battle-assumptions.134010/ about chaning the rules of engagement so not everyone has to knock people out for a ridiculious amount of time most characters have no feasible way to do or kill everything even if its entirely OOC as if we're fighting with powers and not people (as that's what we currently do really).

But anyways I don't get this fight. I effectively dropped Jojo at SBR because the further parts were too boring to keep reading. So I only have this guys profile to go off. Which seems to be 100% active uncounterable damage sharing (it cause it transferal but then the stand itself says its shared, not trasnfered, I assume latter is true).
So how does she win this? She makes him hurt himself, it hurts her, she... what? There's no wincon here. There's nothing she can do to disable him without disabling herself. Her only winning choice is to not fight him at all, which currently doesn't seem to be allowed on this site.


"putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s)"~Victory Conditions, SBA. Making them give up is a state where he doesn't want to inflict harm
I guess that works.
In which case she just instantly wins if she can do this and instantly incons/loses if she can't.
 
I can see your second point, but doesn't the portion you quoted also say that the fighter can't harm the other for a day? And if you're using the BFR argument, doesn't say that win-con only applies if they can't come back for a week? What stops Thunder from relapsing and attempting to kill him after some time has passed? From how the wiki interprets HtH, it seems like there isn't a range limit, and will only continue to work as long as Thunder desires to not die alone and desires to die with Cherish.
 
rawXDglomp said:
But anyways I don't get this fight. I effectively dropped Jojo at SBR
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But this is a Stone Ocean character and that's before SBR
rawXDglomp said:
There's no wincon here. There's nothing she can do to disable him without disabling herself. Her only winning choice is to not fight him at all, which currently doesn't seem to be allowed on this site.
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So, is mind control not a wincon anymore? As I said, making someone give up is a viable wincon no matter the method
FantaRin_The_First said:
say that the fighter can't harm the other for a day?
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Yep, what about it?
 
Honestly, I am of the personal opinion that since Thunder has a weird thing with women, and the fact that winning for Thunder means killing himself: I can see him hang himself faster than Cherish can use her Empath Power, although if that isn't possible... Cherish has a win-con of making him leave, but you have taken away Thunder's only method as a result of his win-con is killing himself is the only move that he can do, nor can he just try to punch her due to her controlling his emotions which makes this one-sided and leaves Cherish to little to no danger once she makes sure that Thunder isn't suicidal anymore.
 
Then I dropped it after part 4.

She doesn't mind control, she incluences. Its not as strong as mind control. She can't just point at a guy and say 'you, **** off' and he immediately ***** off. Not that strong. She can make him feel an emotion that may push him closer to ******* off. If she's succesful, he ***** off. If not she's still stuck with the guy she can't do anything to without killing herself.
 
... Huh, that changes things. If Cherish can't immediately control him and doesn't change his personality in its entirety, only makes him feel emotions that he can choose to act on, I think there is a genuine chance that Thunder would kill himself first and take Cherish out as well. Like... Even after a person who helped him, complimented him, tried to give Thunder their panties, and even berated him and called him out for the selfish shit he's doing and told him how his power works were not enough to make him stop killing himself: So if Cherish attempts to use her empath powers to cause him to torture himself, Thunder would just go to a nearby tree (this is a park, right, due to SBA?) and hang himself with his belt.

... I feel like there is something wrong with this statement but fanta is distracted with other stuff and getting somewhat sleepy, so this is to be expected.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
... Huh, that changes things. If Cherish can't immediately control him and doesn't change his personality in its entirety, only makes him feel emotions that he can choose to act on, I think there is a genuine chance that Thunder would kill himself first and take Cherish out as well. Like... Even after a person who helped him, complimented him, tried to give Thunder their panties, and even berated him and called him out for the selfish shit he's doing and told him how his power works were not enough to make him stop killing himself: So if Cherish attempts to use her empath powers to cause him to torture himself, Thunder would just go to a nearby tree (this is a park, right, due to SBA?) and hang himself with his belt.
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She does have a feat of getting someone to kill himself with her power so who's to say it's not potent enough to cause the opposite?
 
What's the timeframe for how long she took to get that person to kill himself? Is it instant? Did she need to take time and slowly affect this person with her power as they were hunting her down? Did she also try to manipulate a person the old fashion way as well to further reinforce her power?

Plus, for the sake of argument, Thunder manages to hang himself, what can Cherish do from this point? I argue nothing as she has no ranged attacks and she would die shortly thereafter. Which is pretty bad for her. Since a single successful attempt to kill himself makes Cherish the loser in the end.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Did she also try to manipulate a person the old fashion way as well to further reinforce her power?
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Nope, she has no prior knowledge and needed to stay away from the guy. So that was fully from her power
FantaRin_The_First said:
Plus, for the sake of argument, Thunder manages to hang himself, what can Cherish do from this point? I argue nothing as she has no ranged attacks and she would die shortly thereafter.
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Yeah, that's the point of trying to stop him from doing that

You know what at this point I'm considering giving her prior knowledge
 
The only danger Thunder poses is from the suddenness of HtH, but if you take that away, then Thunder doesn't pose any real danger since she can focus her efforts on y'know... getting rid of Thunder's sole defining trait by manipulating his emotions and making him feel things that he wouldn't feel otherwise to not be a selfish asshole who takes innocent people down with him. Although, would it work fast enough is the better question.
 
Peppersalt43 said:
Well it was already explained that she just makes him feel emotions, not manipulate his reactions so take that as you will
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Welp, that is enough for me to vote Thunder FRA, then. If Cherish makes him sad, he would attempt to kill himself faster. If she makes him happy, he will kill himself to preserve his happiness and possibly take the person who made him happy with him. Anger would cause him to want to take her with him. He really just wants to die, and he is too twisted to think of others. If only Cherish had martial art skills. She could've knocked the shit out of him to win.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Welp, that is enough for me to vote Thunder FRA, then. If Cherish makes him sad, he would attempt to kill himself faster. If she makes him happy, he will kill himself to preserve his happiness and possibly take the person who made him happy with him. Anger would cause him to want to take her with him. He really just wants to die, and he is too twisted to think of others. If only Cherish had martial art skills. She could've knocked the shit out of him to win.
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So... That's how it goes even with prior knowledge?
 
Thunder McQueen is literally a person with the two character traits of wanting to die and wanting to not die alone. He is also so much of a one-trick pony that there are not many ways to imagine how a match with him should end: it is either a - he killed himself and his opponent or b - character managed to deal with him by bypassing HtH and knocked Thunder out or incapped him.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Thunder McQueen is literally a person with the two character traits of wanting to die and wanting to not die alone. He is also so much of a one-trick pony that there are not many ways to imagine how a match with him should end: it is either a - he killed himself and his opponent or b - character managed to deal with him by bypassing HtH and knocked Thunder out or incapped him.
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Well then that's a problem, if he kills himself, he also loses. He can't win, he can only incon
 
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