Star Wars Cosmology Revision (Part 1 of 4: Legends Cosmology Overview)

[StoneKillerz12]

Cosmology Overview​

Before going into this, I would like to note that most of this should be explained in much more detail in a dedicated cosmology blog. I don't, however, have the time necessary to do this and much of it contains irrelevant filler to the topics at hand. Instead, for the moment at least, I will be jotting the most important pieces of evidence to place certain characters/aspects of the cosmology to justify the tiers they should be placed at. There is quite a few parts of the cosmology that are being left out here, but ultimately have no significance to the most relevant parts of the cosmology and it's scaling. So most of this is going to be a summarized version of where each section of the cosmology scales, partially based on this CRT. Without further ado, here are my proposals.

Realspace​

Tiering: 3-A. Realspace is the physical space inhabited by ordinary galactic residents, encompassed by both distance and volume and "other universes".

Hyperspace​

Tiering: High 3-A spatially, Low 2-C in it's entirety. Hyperspace is an infinitely large subspace and dimension of space-time in-between all points and distance in space, which allows for "practically infinite speed" in which spatial distance and the time and effort required to traverse it become irrelevant. Additionally, Hyperspace allows for the usage of time travel as it contains within itself more than three spatial dimensions along with one temporal dimension, and exists alongside and outside of ordinary space-time in realspace. Normal matter dissolves upon mere contact with Hyperspace energy.

Otherspace​

Tiering: Low 2-C. Otherspace is a mysterious, slightly warped and "less vibrant" pocket realm beyond the boundaries of both Hyperspace and Realspace described by The Five as being "beyond dimensions" and as the final resting place of ships lost in Hyperspace. The "beyond dimensions" statement should be referring to the three-dimensional volume of Realspace.

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

Tiering: High 3-A. Sidious' force storms, which correlate directly with the power of his dark side hatred, were tearing at and bursting open the fabric of space and beginning to consume it in it's entirety. Said force storms covered the infinite distance between two points in Hyperspace, in which even the New Republic's rebel fleet could not escape from, draining Hyperspace of it's energy completely and empowering himself with it, allowing him to live as "energy itself" which could only be permanently defeated by the spirits of every single Jedi who's ever lived over the last 25,000 years forcibly dragging him into the Sith afterlife. As such, he should scale above the power of the Sith Holocron of Zigoola, which could manipulate the very fabric of Hyperspace and cause it to fade into darkness.

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

The Ones/The Celestials​

Tiering: Low 1-C. The Celestials completely exceed the physical forms they inhabit that are perceived by living beings, with their true forms residing in a totally unreachable dimension beyond both Hyperspace and Realspace, and thus should exist on par with the "planar networks" of Hypergems, which themselves extend into higher-dimensions beyond the three spatial dimensions and fourth temporal dimension, as well as the perception of Barriss Offee in the state of Oneness, which was able to perceive beyond four dimensions. They are responsible for the creation of all opposing timelines, of which there are an infinite number, which are otherwise insignificant to them.

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

Plane of Erets/The Primary World​

Tiering: Low 1-A. The Primary World resides at, and acts as, the zenith of all reality and as the place from which "all doors stem", encompassing all planes of existence and all things which could theoretically exist, from which were derived from and fashioned after the Primary World as aspects of it. Each universe and plane of existences are of an "entire piece", connected to all other pieces and stretching through and beyond all known and unknown dimensions connected by the vibrating strands of the Force, including those utterly beyond the ken of Barris Offee's senses when she had achieved Oneness, which stretched beyond four dimensions, and as such contains all dimensions.

Beyond Shadows​

Tiering: 1-A. Beyond Shadows is a place wholly devoid of all space and time, which themselves, along with all existence beneath it, are illusory and do not truly exist apart from being mere thoughts and dreams. The Force is all that truly exists in Beyond Shadows, just as it does in the illusory world. The distinction between thought and reality does not exist in Beyond Shadows, nor does the spatial or temporal position of a being within realspace have any significance in Beyond Shadows. Beyond Shadows cannot be achieved through manipulation of the Force alone, instead through meditation and "awakening", in particular the process of Mind Walking. Beyond Shadows is therefore one degree of qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology beneath it.

The Force​

Tiering: High 1-A+. The Force is an infinite, all-encompassing oneness beyond and utterly devoid of duality, as well as natural, spiritual, and metaphysical separation and differentiation. Both the Light and Dark sides of the Force, respectively, are nothing more than words of ignorance to the Force's fundamentally unknowable nature, which exceeds, as well as contains all of the supposedly distinct aspects of existence. The Force is both within and without, limitless, sublime, and wholly beyond true conception, and is ultimately and fundamentally distinct from all conceptualizations imposed upon it by the life which exists throughout it, whether it be as a non-sentient energy field governed by Midi-Chlorians, the sum and totality of all creation, an eternal entity, knowing and unknowable, the universe or existence, or even thought itself, they are all simply words, "half truths", or lies, in which it's "truth" will always be greater than any naming or conceptualization which can, has, or could ever be imposed upon it, none of which would ever reflect it's true nature, which defies explanation entirely.

These distinctions and separated conceptualizations would include The Cosmic Force or the Pneuma; a Jedi-given representation of the Supreme Maker which acts as the set of all conceptualizations in any mortal mind, a "unifying gestalt" and a metaphysical vision of the Galactic Whirlpool as well as all of reality, and is perceived as the concept of fate simply by limited understanding of it, The Unifying Force or the Apeiron; the underlying unity and ultimate equality between all seemingly distinct things, including the metaphysical and qualitatively superior realms such as Beyond Shadows, in which the Unifying Force operates through beyond the physical in the plane of thought and memory itself where all physical matter is dictated, The Living Force or the Anima; the representation of the binding life energy between all objects and their ontologies, The Physical Force; the binding relationship between all physical objects and their differentiations, and The Dark; the final, ineluctable and perpetual absolute non-existence which is the very abstraction of the inevitable end of all things, in which all existence is an illusion without substance to. As stated above, all of these conceptualizations and differentiations do not encompass The Force's true nature. The Force is all of reality and all of reality is the Force, along with all of it's differentiations and conceptualizations.

A much more profound, in-detail explanation for the nature of the aforementioned "The Dark" can be found here, which solidifies it as a very blatantly 1-A concept in Legends, in similar vain to Beyond Shadows mentioned above.

In short, The Force for all reasons above contains and exists throughout all qualities, meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, etc etc. that can be conceptualized throughout all differing and opposing realities. It is ineffeable, immutable, and beyond true definition and conceptualization. It is one with all and all is one with it. The Force is reality and reality is The Force. It is the ultimate permeation of life, time, and existence as a whole and the essence in which the mysterious "Father of Lights" enacts his will through. All of this should blatantly qualify for a High 1-A+ rating.

However, as briefly touched upon in the above paragraph, there is a few things preventing The Force from reaching tier 0. For one, it has separation and differentiation. While it's true nature could be recognized as lacking it, it's true nature can still be individually separated and conceptualized through it's varying aspects, which have been described as being "facets" of The Force. While these separated perceptions and conceptualizations of what The Force is, along with any and all other distinctions between what it could be are all contained within and exceeded by The Force's true nature, it can still be divided up into separated parts. The Force also has a beginning, as for what was briefly touched upon above, The Force was created by the mysterious supreme being of the Star Wars Legends cosmology; The Father of Lights, A.K.A the Supreme Maker. The Father of Lights is very reminiscient of Eru Ilúvatar from Tolkien's cosmology. It was described to have sung forth The Force from the first notes of a song, in the primal unduality of non-existence before all creation, in which The Force permeated the idea of existence and creation into being.

Therefore, The Force due to having both differentiation and having a beginning, it cannot be 0. However, what you probably picked up on by reading this, there is a character in Legends mentioned here that would undoubtedly qualify for tier 0, and that is the aforementioned Father of Lights/Supreme Maker mentioned in Supernatural Encounters.

The Father of Lights (or The Supreme Maker)​

Tiering: 0. It is somewhat self-explanatory for why this being would be Tier 0. It exceeds a High 1-A+ cosmology, which was generated through itself as the permeation of all creation and it's differentiations. Normally, High 1-A+ is reached through reasoning of being the "ultimate essence of reality in which a tier 0 being can enact it's power freely through", but it would likely be the inverse here. The Supreme Maker/Father of Lights would be 0 based off of transcending a High 1-A+ cosmology, which by default would make it Tier 0.

There are, however, a few other things for The Father of Lights which would solidly justify a tier 0 rating. For one, it does not possess differentiation or separation at all, as both separation and differentiation did not exist in the primal unduality of non-existence before The Force, which contains both all separation and differentiation for reasons explained above, and itself lacks duality. On that note, it also is beyond duality completely, another qualification for tier 0. It also cannot be understood or manifested in any capacity in the same sense that The Force can be, it can instead only be theorized to exist based off of the limited imaginations and understandings of beings within The Force, as per The Cosmic Force/Pneuma. This however, is not a distinction and/or separation of the Father of Lights himself, nor even a "vessel" which it operates through in it's "dream". It's simply what mortals in the "dream" (I.E, The Force) perceive as "The Father of Lights".

Finally, what would be the most damning evidence would be the description of "All is One"; the most primal, profound simplicity of The Father of Lights. It lacks both duality and distinct parts, simply being itself and only itself in it's most simple aspect. Both Luke and Anakin, upon ascending to the Netherworld of The Force, return to and proceed to partake in The Father of Lights' simplicity, returning all of creation back to it's most simple, non-dual state.

For a slightly more detailed explanation into The Father of Lights and The Force in Legends, G1's Luke VS Saber blog explains a lot of it in these sections.

I should also note there is other beings in the more "out there" parts of Legends' cosmology, such as The Father of Shadows and/or "The Left Handed God" (ambiguous whether or not they are the same entity. Both of them are still bound within The Force and thus act within The Father of Lights' "dream" (A.K.A The Force), but would likely scale to the 1-A stuff at minimum).

Canonicity of Supernatural Encounters​

Finally, there is one more thing that should be addressed urgently. If you've been looking at most of the scans here in regards to The Force and The Father of Lights, you'll notice that many of the scans are cited to come from a recently published in 2022 Legends novel; Supernatural Encounters. There has been quite a lot of debate and controversy regarding whether or not these novels should be used or not, as they debatably do not fit into either Disney Canon or Legends. However, the Supernatural Encounters novel, in short, is no much less a source for lore in the Star Wars EU/Legends continuity then any other novel in Legends tackling the cosmic side of Star Wars.

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Not only this, but Supernatural Encounters is explicitly an EU novel. Therefore, it very much is intended to be a canon story in regards to Star Wars' expanded universe originally created by George Lucas, and NOT un-canon towards either continuity. There is a problem that should be noted regarding this, though. Supernatural Encounters was never officially put on the Legends timeline under the official website documenting this; the Holocron. There is an explanation for this, though. For starters, one of the main reasons Supernatural Encounters never underwent editorial review is due in part to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilms, which caused the novella's existence to become "limbo" essentially. Because Lucasfilms was apparently not allowed to touch anything Legends related during the transition between the EU canonicity and the Disney canonicity's integration, Supernatural Encounters' publication was tremendously delayed. It was originally meant to be published from apparently as far back as 2002, was officially licensed, overviewed by Lucasfilms, and was by all means fully planned to be added to the expanded universe.

Much more context by the author and his colleagues themselves answer why this novel wasn't released sooner and where it places in EU can be found here. Please visit this page for much more concrete proof solidifying SNE as canon Legends material.

Finally, Supernatural Encounters' publisher, Joe Bongiorno, has been involved with several official pieces of Legends material, and was even given the role of authoring a cohesive timeline for legends canon. And he himself considers Supernatural Encounters as a part of that canon. Furthermore, several other widely recognized novels in Legends have implemented Joe's ideas in Supernatural Encounters, such as in the Book of the Sith, something confirmed by it's creator.

While it is still somewhat contentious, Supernatural Encounters overall does not have any contradictions for fitting into Star Wars Legends' timeline any more than any other Legends Novel talking about the unseen lore of the franchise. Everything here seems to suggest Supernatural Encounters has a place in the Legends timeline, and is only not more widely recognized as such due to it's complicated publishing history, which would very much have allowed it to fit in. The canonicity issues are not an issue of story contradictions or peers disapproving of the novella's ideas, but rather the difficult transition between EU and Disney's Canon. Overall, Supernatural Encounters being used to scale the cosmic side of Star Wars' cosmology falls entirely in line with the premise of the Supernatural Encounters novels, as well as again, not at all contradicting previously established cosmic lore proposed in other EU stories, some directly based off of the ideas of Joe Bongiorno in Supernatural Encounters.

The next part will be discussing the more wider applications of this cosmology for the characters in Legends and who or who doesn't scale, as well as the discussion of the addition of profiles for The Father of Lights and The Force itself, both of whom will be granted the tiers established here, that being 0 and High 1-A+, respectively. Part 3 and 4 will focus on the Disney Canon side of Star Wars' cosmology.

Agree:

Disagree:

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Relevant peeps

@Guruguru69 (who I think provided most of this in the G1 Luke VS Saber blog but not too sure), @Ultima_Reality (who is most knowledgable on the High 1-A+ and 0 stuff, which I propose for the apex of Legends' cosmology)

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Relevant peeps

@Guruguru69 (who I think provided most of this in the G1 Luke VS Saber blog but not too sure), @Ultima_Reality (who is most knowledgable on the High 1-A+ and 0 stuff, which I propose for the apex of Legends' cosmology)

Note - Normal users cannot ping staff. I recommend you call their wall or call a staff to tag others.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Note - Normal users cannot ping staff. I recommend you call their wall or call a staff to tag others.

Ah shit my bad

 

[Qawsedf234]

DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

I get Luke, but why the other three?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hyperspace​

Isn't this at least low 1-C..?

Edit: Looks like 1-C since it had more than both 3 spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I get Luke, but why the other three?

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

 

[Hasty12345]

Hyperspace

Based on your description, this is no lower than low 2-C, even if the higher dimensions don't have quantitative superiority.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Based on your description, this is no lower than low 2-C, even if the higher dimensions don't have quantitative superiority.

it's just 1-C since the realm is infinite and has 4+2 dimensions.

 

[Hellbeast]

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

Wait do you have the source for that?

 

[Kaiou1991]

I agree with a lot of this but some of the tiering seems inconsistent.

As others have said, hyperspace should be low 1-C, your scans quite frankly prove that to be the case.

You also scale DE Sidious to the hyperspace but only scale him to the high 3-A portion, despite scaling him above something that could destroy the very fabric of hyperspace???

The argument your presenting isn't congruent with the scans you're using to present the argument. Hyperspace should be low 1-C and based on your own justifications, DE Sidious should be low 1-C as well IMO. Unless you have reasons to not do so?

 

[Cyberblader90]

The scan for destroying the fabric of hyper space doesn't seem to imply what the CRT is proposing

 

[Qawsedf234]

Vitiate is directly compared to DE Sidious as having comparable force power by the Staff working on Old Republic.

Do you have a source?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have a bad feeling about most of the Tier 1 stuff.

 

[Hasty12345]

I have a bad feeling about most of the Tier 1 stuff.

I see what you did there