[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Stop this please. Sean, please try not to make comments like that, no matter how frustrated you get. Jinx, the joke does seem designed to stir the pot, although I don't know the character at all, so I don't know how severe the insult is. From what I can tell the character says things that are untrue but which he might think are true, I don't know.

It's even lighter than that, it just means he sometimes capitalizes words for emphasis.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It's even lighter than that, it just means he sometimes capitalizes words for emphasis.

Okay. That seems like a minor thing, it's just sometimes it's best not to joke like this with some people who may not appreciate it.

All the same, the character in question seems to be a very intentionally negative depiction of bullying victims, which is a bit of a negative thing to compare someone to.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

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Oops! I forgot an 8th: Rei.

So yeah, I working alone already made half of the 12 you wanted. If you really want protag profiles, you can make them yourself.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oops! I forgot an 8th: Rei.

So yeah, I working alone already made half of the 12 you wanted. If you really want protag profiles, you can make them yourself.

Why is it just Rei? Wouldn't it be Rei/Akari since they're interchangeable?

 

[Jinx666]

Stop this please. Sean, please try not to make comments like that, no matter how frustrated you get. Jinx, the joke does seem designed to stir the pot, although I don't know the character at all, so I don't know how severe the insult is. From what I can tell the character says things that are untrue but which he might think are true, I don't know.

Its not about the reference, its about Sean blatantly trying to cause arguments and say petty things. So petty that it looks ridiculous and annoying on me to report to Rule violations but as long as you can see its accumulating.
He is clearly doing it on purpose.

How many times is gonna be enough atp, he is STILL doing this constantly.

 

[Jinx666]

I mean, why wouldn't we index that?

Because theres nothing in the story that suggests they can access an Arceus. And that the whole fact of having an Arceus would affect their tiering?

Not really, there are a lot of differences. The Gen 1 players don't get access to the Creation Trio (even with Fire Red and Leaf Green or Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee), every character that isn't from Gen 2 can't use the Berserk gene, every pre-Gen 6 and post-gen 7 (excluding Legends Z-A) character doesn't have access to Mega Evolution, etcetera, for example.

These are pedantic, its missing the point. Just because theres one or two things out of the 95% of the same kit or smthn as the last one still doesnt justify it

Not for our pages. We're an indexing site first, a vs debating site second, kind of.

Indexing based on making higher tiers. We can call it indexing all we want but if ppl can only obtain these Pokemon illegitimately, then it doesnt mean the player can canonically use it.

If theres nothing naturally obtainable in the story that suggests they can acess certain Pokemon, especially when said Pokemon would be the reason their tiers get to a ridiculous level, then no it shouldnt really be considered.

Like I said earlier in this post, there's precedent for having the thread's original poster decide on the loadout a character will use in the fight. I see no reason why we can't do the same with the various Pokemon protagonists.

Im literally saying you can? Im just saying to stick with what they can naturally access instead of Pokemon that either needed to be traded to themselves by other games or Pokegened.
Cause then you can make the argument someone can complete the nat dex before the 2nd gym, and just cause thats 'possible;, it should reflect on the characters (and even deeper implications on the scaling). It gets ridiculous
So something like Arceus, who you couldnt obtain legitimately since Legends Arceus, shouldnt need to be given to a protag who has no business having it. And then this bumps up tiers. And then it fuels agenda. The 'indexing part' becomes unnecessarily convoluted.

 

[Jinx666]

Why is it just Rei? Wouldn't it be Rei/Akari since they're interchangeable?

Well thats what the issue is with the Protag profiles and how Sean has made them. Hes decided which protagonist he thinks is more canon, and hes wrote those profiles with that in mind.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Why is it just Rei? Wouldn't it be Rei/Akari since they're interchangeable?

Rei is treated as the canon protag in everything where one has been revealed, like Project Snorlax and Pokemon Masters.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Because theres nothing in the story that suggests they can access an Arceus.

Trading is a thing.

And that the whole fact of having an Arceus would affect their tiering?

It would affect their tiering, but it's not like it'd be a huge jump since they can already fight and capture the Creation Trio thanks to Dynamax Adventures.

These are pedantic, its missing the point. Just because theres one or two things out of the 95% of the same kit or smthn as the last one still doesnt justify it

It's a bit more than that (especially since a lot of them would not have access to various Abilities), but ok, I guess.

Indexing based on making higher tiers.

That's not something I said, but go off, I guess.

We can call it indexing all we want but if ppl can only obtain these Pokemon illegitimately, then it doesnt mean the player can canonically use it.

What do you mean by, "illegitimately?" Trading is a legitimate way to get Pokemon; many Pokemon can't even evolve without being traded.

If something can only be done via hacking/cheating or glitches, then it wouldn't be included.

If theres nothing naturally obtainable in the story that suggests they can acess certain Pokemon, especially when said Pokemon would be the reason their tiers get to a ridiculous level, then no it shouldnt really be considered.

The National Dex and the Diploma given to you by the in-universe GameFreak suggest they can.

Im literally saying you can?

Ok.

Im just saying to stick with what they can naturally access instead of Pokemon that either needed to be traded to themselves by other games or Pokegened.

So they can't use Machamp or Gengar?

Cause then you can make the argument someone can complete the nat dex before the 2nd gym, and just cause thats 'possible;, it should reflect on the characters (and even deeper implications on the scaling). It gets ridiculous

I never said that. Plus, the Disobedience mechanic makes it much harder for them to use strong Traded Pokemon if the Player hasn't gotten far enough/strong enough themselves.

So something like Arceus, who you couldnt obtain legitimately since Z-A,

Did you mean Legends Arceus? Or is Arceus actually catchable in Legends Z-A (I haven't played Legends Z-A yet, so I wouldn't know)?

shouldnt need to be given to a protag who has no business having it.

I disagree.

And then this bumps up tiers.

Yeah, but that's how it is.

And then it fuels agenda.

That's not really our problem, honestly.

The 'indexing part' becomes unnecessarily convoluted.

I personally think it'll be fine.

 

[Lou_change]

Because theres nothing in the story that suggests they can access an Arceus. And that the whole fact of having an Arceus would affect their tiering?

Boo hoo? It effects one Pokemon in their entire arsenal it is just going to be used for jokes matches the explanation for on the profiles ruins.

 

[Jinx666]

Boo hoo? It effects one Pokemon in their entire arsenal it is just going to be used for jokes matches the explanation for on the profiles ruins.

'One Pokemon in their entire arsenal' And its the literal top-of-the-verse god of creation itself thats merely coded in the game files.

Yeah okay. Feels more people just want big tiers on the pages instead of actually giving any reason why these characters would be capable of using or catching Arceus. Pokegening isnt a legitimate part of the game, let alone the lore

 

[Jinx666]

T

Aight can you stop making huge quote spams of singular sentences please

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Yeah okay. Feels more people just want big tiers on the pages instead of actually giving any reason why these characters would be capable of using or catching Arceus. Pokegening isnt a legitimate part of the game, let alone the lore

This is a very disingenuous statement to make when at least two or three people have given their reasoning on why such a thing should happen. I don't care much about the battles on the forums. I will make a match from time to time, but my main interest is profile creation and indexing. And I think ShftCrtl's statement was also fairly constructive to the thread

We know these characters are capable of using Arceus because you can pick up a game, time travel back to 2009, and get Arceus in your party. It can then be traded to any viable titles. We accept trading as canon, so this shouldn't be a huge leap in logic

(Of course, as I said, whether events are viable is possibly a whole different discussion)

 

[Jinx666]

This is a very disingenuous statement to make when at least two or three people have given their reasoning on why such a thing should happen. I don't care much about the battles on the forums. I will make a match from time to time, but my main interest is profile creation and indexing. And I think ShftCrtl's statement was also fairly constructive to the thread

We know these characters are capable of using Arceus because you can pick up a game, time travel back to 2009, and get Arceus in your party. It can then be traded to any viable titles. We accept trading as canon, so this shouldn't be a huge leap in logic

(Of course, as I said, whether events are viable is possibly a whole different discussion)

Well given the comment i was replying to going 'Boo Hoo' as if theres no actual logical reasoning why most of these characters can get to Arceus, it doesnt seem far off honestly.

You even had to cross out the part abt time travelling because there was legit no legal way to obtain Arceus lol. Heck, someone sent a link proving that you dont NEED arceus to complete the pokedex anyway, it was never officially released and its events got help up.
'Trading' as a concept is obv canon, but acting as if the Avatar of God would canonically be global traded like it was a hot cake is whats disingenuous.

So then people wanna make it a big part of that characters arsenal and the entire reasoning for their tiering, and for what i wonder?
How about we just stick to what they can naturally obtain, their entire dex with variations, and not need to try and mixmatch lores to try and make the optimised profile then copy paste it about 9-10 times?

 

[Jinx666]

Either way this still has NO BEARING on what the OP is trying to change. Pokemon profiles sadly wont be any less infamous, but we need to establish actual rules for the Protagonists instead of trying to create our favourite OC

 

[StekFence]

Honestly yeah, if you can have trade evos, you should be able to index any traded mons.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Well given the comment i was replying to going 'Boo Hoo' as if theres no actual logical reasoning why most of these characters can get to Arceus, it doesnt seem far off honestly.

I do think that was a bit hostile, but their other statements were constructive. But still, I don't think hostility is gonna get us anywhere. Let's try and avoid that going forward

You even had to cross out the part abt time travelling because there was legit no legal way to obtain Arceus lol. Heck, someone sent a link proving that you dont NEED arceus to complete the pokedex anyway, it was never officially released and its events got help up.

I think we should hold it to the same standards as, say, a DLC of a discontinued game with no active servers. Just because it's not still running today, doesn't mean it never existed.

And I seem to recall the events being released in certain countries, the DPP one just got shelved in the US (though wasn't there an HGSS distribution?)

Either way this still has NO BEARING on what the OP is trying to change. Pokemon profiles sadly wont be any less infamous, but we need to establish actual rules for the Protagonists instead of trying to create our favourite OC

While I still very much disagree with the notion of a composite trainer being an 'OC', I do fully agree with Male/Female protagonists sharing a profile, probably with the naming scheme suggested. I think trying to claim that one gender is canon over the other is futile, as anyone can open the game and pick either gender. Both genders are typically used in marketing material and spin-offs.

 

[Jinx666]

Honestly yeah, if you can have trade evos, you should be able to index any traded mons.

Well no, cause its blatantly different for a trainer to own a Machamp, or an Accelgor, compared to literal Arceus.

 

[Jinx666]

I think we should hold it to the same standards as, say, a DLC of a discontinued game with no active servers. Just because it's not still running today, doesn't mean it never existed.

And I seem to recall the events being released in certain countries, the DPP one just got shelved in the US (though wasn't there an HGSS distribution?)

There wasn't, and online events are iffy on whether or not they prove that the characters legit own can get them. This isnt the case for every other game

Theres no canon confirmation it got traded to other protags too? Idk why we want to try and spin that these legendaries are just casually traded over from one another within the same universe/timeline.

 

[StekFence]

Well no, cause its blatantly different for a trainer to own a Machamp, or an Accelgor, compared to literal Arceus.

It’s not though. Arceus being so powerful does not inherently mean he’s untradeable. If there’s a legit way to get one, it should be an option you can say the trainer has. Like if you made a match, you should just be able to use any 6 Pokemon in the game of origin. There’s no indication the player has potions, or ultra balls for instance, but it’s an option, so we index it. Not letting a emerald protag get, idk, Metagross just seems odd. Sure there’s no confirmation he beat Steven or even bothered training the resulting beldum, but the nature of Pokémon is almost sandbox like.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

It's not 'confirmed' that other RPG protags get any given type of weapon or spell, but we always include them in their profiles (if notable enough). It's just part of being thorough and giving them anything they can get within the game

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Aight can you stop making huge quote spams of singular sentences please

Sorry about that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Do we just like, add an "Up to Low 1-C" in all their keys or something? They can performs trades whenever ya know

 

[Jinx666]

It’s not though. Arceus being so powerful does not inherently mean he’s untradeable. If there’s a legit way to get one, it should be an option you can say the trainer has. Like if you made a match, you should just be able to use any 6 Pokemon in the game of origin. There’s no indication the player has potions, or ultra balls for instance, but it’s an option, so we index it. Not letting a emerald protag get, idk, Metagross just seems odd. Sure there’s no confirmation he beat Steven or even bothered training the resulting beldum, but the nature of Pokémon is almost sandbox like.

Its less about being 'tradeable' and technicality, and more how these players could realistically even obtain a legitimate Arceus? Which no, is NOWHERE near the same as being able to obtain trade evolutions of standard species Pokemon. Potions/Ultra Balls etc are all examples of things readily accessible in the game, but this is in no way comparable to Pokemon that have no business really being obtained.

If you can only obtain these Pokemon through metagame means (like trading to yourself or Pokegening), which aren't backed in any way by the lore whatsoever just because trading is a thing that exists in-universe, then it gets to a point where we have to wonder how ridiculous we're getting in what Pokemon they can obtain just for it being in the game files. Things like Dexit too aren't actually lore-representative (Like, an Eelektross or whatever isnt canonically unable to enter Galar just because of the game mechanics tied to it, and theres no canon reason through this 'global trade network that the trainer shouldnt be able to obtain one)

Feels like people only wanna take the Games and their mechanics too literally when it benefits tiering.

It's not 'confirmed' that other RPG protags get any given type of weapon or spell, but we always include them in their profiles (if notable enough). It's just part of being thorough and giving them anything they can get within the game

Pokemon in themself are different to just having a 'spell or weapon', especially when the game itself doesn't give you any natural way of obtaining these species/legendaries legitimately.
Name one instance of a Spell/Weapon you can't obtain in a game without having to 'trade' from a previous version for a player character.

Just feels like people wanna give every protag something thats completely unrelated to their story, and not legitimately obtainable without cheats for the sake of bumping up tiers atp.
If we wanna benefit the 'indexing' of these characters, then its better to stick to what the games actually allow them to have on their own without abusing the fact that you need a cross-game trade mechanic for metagame purposes and player-service, as opposed to trying to actually say that this player irl would have access to these Pokemon

 

[Random-Helper323]

Maybe the middle ground is to separate these things by keys. Put the things which are only obtained by trading into their own key so we know it requires customisation.

 

[Jinx666]

Well tbf, this isn't really what the OP is trying to suggest in the first place, this is just a sidepiece convo cause everyone (in moderation) practically agrees with changes to how the Protag profiles SHOULD be structured (its just waiting for staff approval so its in Limbo till then)

I just think in general theres no reason to be giving these player characters something that they cant obtain legitimately (just because the pokemon exists in the game files. which was mandatory for every game pre-Gen 8), especially if those Pokemon have an actual huge impact on the character's tierings. Trading is fine for the actual dex (you can catch these trade evos in-lore from the wild too. Its purely gameplay and there has to be SOME way of them naturally evolving otherwise there would be no wild members), but when it comes to getting the avatar of God from a trade and applying their lore-based power, it creates a very large boundary. No prior examples of RPGs or other silent protagonists have this mechanic as opposed to there being actual ways of obtaining their listed potential tools in the game they are in.

Not that i'll be developing the profiles in the first place but i think there needs to be a definite line between whats included just for technically 'existing' and being possible in game through illegitimate means, to what makes sense

 

[Random-Helper323]

I honestly find it hard to create an objective barrier separating Arceus from any other trade Pokemon, if power level is the only difference being brought up. If the difference is to do with not being able to get it in any realistic way in the canon, that part I can see some merit in.

I do see how certain Pokemon attainable through trades is a little similar to console commands, glitches and mods in Skyrim. Technically it's possible to use them to be completely invincible against Alduin's attacks and literally kill him in one hit with a kitchen fork or use telekinesis to beat him to death with what's essentially a doughnut, but such a large power gap isn't used in the profile.

 

[Jinx666]

Well Arceus isnt a 'trade pokemon' in the sense of Machamp, or Alakazam (mons that need to be traded to evolve as a universally disliked way of promoting trading in actual gamesales), but it is the literal avatar of God in-lore so theres obviously some difference in...why would this thing canonically be casually traded from one Protag in another game to another.
Especially when said Pokemon, again. cant be obtained legitimately till Legends Arceus.
All the 'Players' that you get these mons from (if theyre not NPCs) are literally alternate versions of yourself too so its hard to justify them being in the same universe as a way of someone effectively getting certain Pokemon

Well idk Skyrim but obv glitches and mods wouldn't be accounted for in a canon character's actual lore since theyre not intended parts of the game. You'd take the base game as it is.

 

[Lou_change]

'One Pokemon in their entire arsenal' And its the literal top-of-the-verse god of creation itself thats merely coded in the game files.

Yeah okay. Feels more people just want big tiers on the pages instead of actually giving any reason why these characters would be capable of using or catching Arceus. Pokegening isnt a legitimate part of the game, let alone the lore

So, I see no reason we should ban any other Mythical Pokémon if people want to make matches for the trainers including them. I mean just being given to you randomly is technically a lore explanation.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Its less about being 'tradeable' and technicality, and more how these players could realistically even obtain a legitimate Arceus?

Probably the way Ethan did it.

If you can only obtain these Pokemon through metagame means (like trading to yourself or Pokegening), which aren't backed in any way by the lore whatsoever just because trading is a thing that exists in-universe, then it gets to a point where we have to wonder how ridiculous we're getting in what Pokemon they can obtain just for it being in the game files. Things like Dexit too aren't actually lore-representative (Like, an Eelektross or whatever isnt canonically unable to enter Galar just because of the game mechanics tied to it, and theres no canon reason through this 'global trade network that the trainer shouldnt be able to obtain one)

Good thing there are means that aren’t “metagame”, like the Ranger Union entrusting Pokemon to Dawn or Ethan, and the Pokétopia Pokemon.

Pokemon in themself are different to just having a 'spell or weapon', especially when the game itself doesn't give you any natural way of obtaining these species/legendaries legitimately.
Name one instance of a Spell/Weapon you can't obtain in a game without having to 'trade' from a previous version for a player character.

“Oh well it’s just different” damn that clears it all up then.

Clairvoyance in Skyrim. Also every forgeable weapon in Skyrim.

Just feels like people wanna give every protag something thats completely unrelated to their story, and not legitimately obtainable without cheats for the sake of bumping up tiers atp.
If we wanna benefit the 'indexing' of these characters, then its better to stick to what the games actually allow them to have on their own without abusing the fact that you need a cross-game trade mechanic for metagame purposes and player-service, as opposed to trying to actually say that this player irl would have access to these Pokemon

We don’t. We only started on this because you started nagging about the opposite.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Do we just like, add an "Up to Low 1-C" in all their keys or something? They can performs trades whenever ya know

Possibly, but the Disobedience mechanic makes it pretty hard to use higher level Pokemon until you get to a certain point in the game.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Possibly, but the Disobedience mechanic makes it pretty hard to use higher level Pokemon until you get to a certain point in the game.

Disobedience sometimes just means they pick a different move. The Player still got said whatever higher Tier pokemon in their team (I remember getting a traded LV40 Golem pretty early in ORAS and they were cool).

It's also a bit weird cause don't think we even take levels as canon. And most legendaries can be controlled past the 4th gym.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It's also a bit weird cause don't think we even take levels as canon. And most legendaries can be controlled past the 4th gym.

Not exact levels, but we do use them to powerscale.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Disobedience sometimes just means they pick a different move.

It also means they sometimes do nothing, go to sleep, and/or hurt themselves in confusion.

The Player still got said whatever higher Tier pokemon in their team (I remember getting a traded LV40 Golem pretty early in ORAS and they were cool).

I guess they would, they just wouldn't be very useful.

It's also a bit weird cause don't think we even take levels as canon.

I thought we did?

And most legendaries can be controlled past the 4th gym.

That's true.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I'll be thinking on some options for how we separate trainers as keys, including trades and stuff. Probably for another thread though

Giving them trades at any point in the game (when trading becomes available) is technically correct, but I don't know how that'd effect tiering IF there were multiple keys for different parts of the game... Maybe "At least [Tier from what they fight], at most Low 1-C" for every tier? Lol, weird but technically correct

Also, we keep using Arceus for an example, but aren't some Pokemon technically comparable to them? For example, wouldn't Cyrus' Crobat or whatever be the same tier as his Palkia? Same with Rei's team? Not quite sure how that works admittedly, genuine question

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I'll be thinking on some options for how we separate trainers as keys, including trades and stuff. Probably for another thread though

Giving them trades at any point in the game (when trading becomes available) is technically correct, but I don't know how that'd effect tiering IF there were multiple keys for different parts of the game... Maybe "At least [Tier from what they fight], at most Low 1-C" for every tier? Lol, weird but technically correct

Also, we keep using Arceus for an example, but aren't some Pokemon technically comparable to them? For example, wouldn't Cyrus' Crobat or whatever be the same tier as his Palkia? Same with Rei's team? Not quite sure how that works admittedly, genuine question

Nobody is treated as comparable to Arceus except Rei's Pokemon due to literally defeating Arceus at full strength.

 

[Jinx666]

So, I see no reason we should ban any other Mythical Pokémon if people want to make matches for the trainers including them. I mean just being given to you randomly is technically a lore explanation.

'because people wanna make matches for them' in itself is not a reason to be including them on profiles. If theres no legit way for that trainer to obtain certain Pokemon (especially when its not mandatory to the NatDex), then it shouldnt be listed

Part of the indexing process is also being impartial.

 

[Jinx666]

Also, we keep using Arceus for an example, but aren't some Pokemon technically comparable to them? For example, wouldn't Cyrus' Crobat or whatever be the same tier as his Palkia? Same with Rei's team? Not quite sure how that works admittedly, genuine question

No, i dont think it would. Especially when that Palkia is caught in a Pokeball and cant access its full power tbh, but thats here nor there for this thread.

Rei is tricky ig imo, cause all you do for the 'boss fights' of Legends Arceus is throw balms at them to calm them down, then your Pokemon can sorta fend off their avatars. And when a ton of general Pokemon's tierings are either based on hyperbole or canon mixing, which can then somehow scale physically to whats contextually a standard human in Pokemon, it starts getting outlandish

 

[Lou_change]

'because people wanna make matches for them' in itself is not a reason to be including them on profiles. If theres no legit way for that trainer to obtain certain Pokemon (especially when its not mandatory to the NatDex), then it shouldnt be listed

Part of the indexing process is also being impartial.

In the very beginning of the franchise you simply received mythical pokemon by trading which is a can thing, by gen 2 there started to be events around mythical pokemon explaining how you got them. I believe that lasted until gen 6 where it was replaced a delivery man just giving you them which still is an explanation. In general I think we allow exclusively content in video games from temporary events or preorders if we have valid evidence they exist. I fail to see why this should be an exception.

 

[Jinx666]

In the very beginning of the franchise you simply received mythical pokemon by trading which is a can thing, by gen 2 there started to be events around mythical pokemon explaining how you got them. I believe that lasted until gen 6 where it was replaced a delivery man just giving you them which still is an explanation. In general I think we allow exclusively content in video games from temporary events or preorders if we have valid evidence they exist. I fail to see why this should be an exception.

Stick to the ones that actually appear/coded in the game tbh. Theres tons of 'event pokemon' technically but we're not gonna list every single gift pokemon either since thats a meta-aspect.

Like, dont give Manaphy to Florian/Julia or Jirachi to Nate/Rosa if theres legitimately no way to obtain these mons other than trading from a separate game and pretending like your alternate save files are all in the same exact universe as the others.