Speed Equalized

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So I thought that in speed equalized matches, everything, movement speed, reactions, combat and attack speed was equalized, but i am hearing that is not the case? Seems to defeat the purpose of equalizing speed if one character has Infinite attack speed while the other is mhs, that is quite frankly unfair.

I understand abilities like those possessed by reinhard heydrich and cronus that ignore distance being allowed in vs match ups cause they are ignoring distance and therefore their attacks would ignore the distance between them and their opponent, but i don't understand attack speed in general not also being equalized. What is the policy on this is it everything equalized like i assumed or everything but attack speed equalized?

 

[LordAizenSama]

theres no real correct answer to this but I always assumed all areas of speed are equalised, including attack speed

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We really need to write what the policy is somewhere so ppl won't be confused, unless it's already written somewhere and idk?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

iirc it was discussed on the last thread about speed equalization, i'll try to find it

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure how to handle this either, beyond what is written in the Versus Thread Rules page.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think we need some sort of agreement on this and a note or explanation written somewhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that the explanation note should probably go to the versus thread rules page.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I have the last thread here , I made it. And it makes perfect sense to me that attack speed is not equalised.

First, attack speed refers to the movement speed of the attack itself. Normally this is identical to combat speed, especially in fist-fights, sword fights, etc, and isn't worth mentioning as any different, or whether or not it is unequalised. However projectile attacks often move faster than the user could themselves move or react to, e.g. average human speed human with a gun shooting subsonic+ bullets. I see no problem with this. If we equalised the attack speeds of two peak humans with guns, then there would talk of them just reaction dodging and ducking under bullets, which is ridiculous. Also, the attack speed of a melee fighter will generally be the same as their combat speed, unless they have some ability that makes their attacks faster than they themselves could react to, for example Teresa's quicksword, which lets her attack at Sub-relativ speeds, but does not allow her to fight at them, if that makes sense.

Attack speed being unequalised is not unfair either, it is simply an advantage on the side of the person with the higher attack speed, just like any other advantage given by abilities or resistances. A higher Attack speed is not enough for a blitz to be called. For example, When two hypersonic characters fight each other and one has some form of projectile attack at lightspeed, aim dodging is still possible, as is countering the preparatory movements of the lightspeed projectile. The hypsonic character without the lightspeed attack can still react to the hypersonic movements of the other character who is preparing their lightspeed attack.

Certain higher attack speeds also are the result of some inherent property of the projectile itself, and so equalising them doesn't make sense. Reinhard Heydritch's spear ignores all distance (covers any distance instantly = infinite distance / no time = infinite attack speed). Christopher Valzedile's Gamma Ray is him shooting weaponised Gamma rays, so obviously it is lightspeed.

Again I must stress that a higher attack speed, when all other speeds are equalised, does not necessarily make it a bliz or unfair. The preparatory movements of the faster attack can still be reacted to, and an opponent can still do something to stop the attack from occuring, or get out of its way or prepare a shield of some sort before the attack begins.

If there is some other inherent property of the faster attack that makes dodging impossible, this is also not unfair, anymore than it would be if speed was equalised. Saber's Excaliblast has a massive width, and is probably going to hit anyone she aims it at (except teleporters and the like), whether the excaliblast's attack speed is equalised or not. Reinhard's spear will never miss, so even if we were to equalise the speed of the attack by removing the infinite speed, it will still hit eventually. So just because the movement of an attack is A) extremely fast and B) the opponent is going to get hit, does not necesarrily mean it is unfair, as there could be some other reason as to why the opponent will be hit, such as AoE.

While not equalising attack speed but equalising other speeds can sometimes lead to problems, such as a peak human with a subsonic+ gun being equalised to FTL, making the gun useless at its attack speed is still subsonic+, this can still be easily fixed by simply always equalising speed to the lower speed. And if the character has some supernatural ability that is purely based on their speed, e.g. timetravel by moving FTL, I believe it would still be acceptable for them to have access to this ability even if their speed is equalised to lower than FTL, for the sake of not disadavtanging them by removing a power of theirs.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This seems of importance, gonna highlight

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that if you are equalizing speed with certain characters, like speedsters such as The Flash, or those with Distance-Bypassing attacks like Reinhard, I have to wonder what's the point of putting such characters in a match-up anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it isn't at all a perfect system, but without speed equalisation there would be too severe differences between the characters for almost any matchups to work.

 

[BoomeYang]

I think that if you are equalizing speed with certain characters, like speedsters such as The Flash, or those with Distance-Bypassing attacks like Reinhard, I have to wonder what's the point of putting such characters in a match-up anyway.

That is really a problem.

Also, whatever is decided, we really need to put it at the rules page so users are very clear on what it actually means because I've seen a lot of users claiming a lot of different things.

 

[Antvasima]

There is always the option to simply skip speed equalisation though. It is up to whoever created a versus thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I personally think that character's whose defining power is their speed shouldn't have speed equalized.

 

[Antvasima]

Probably true, but it is up to whoever creates a thread.

 

[BoomeYang]

@Antvasima

There is, but more often than not, the speed difference is very very large, therefore making versus threads almost impossible to create for certain characters which in turn greatly diminishes the general amount of versus threads in the wiki as a whole. That and the fact that threads tend to derail when speed is being questioned, at least from my experience.

@Matthew Schroeder

That could work.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But this wiki doesn't accept scratch damage as a valid argument, so then you would mostly either get blitzes or the speedster would break their hand trying to damage the higher durability opponent.

If we accepted scratch damage as a valid way of fighting stronger beings than yourself, not equalising speedsters speed would be fine.

 

[Gemmysaur]

There's the thing with projectile speed being equalized too.

Ex. Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon

In a situation where a speedster, say Orsted (Mushoku Tensei) whose movespeed is MHS+ fights Gilgamesh whose reflexes is HHS and projectiles, he (Orsted) will be fine as he's got the much larger speed to weave around a barrage of noble phantasms.

Equalizing this speed makes it so while Orsted can dodge 1, or 5, or 10 weapons, he gets pincushioned by hundreds of weapons at a time from all directions, as he can only move as fast as each weapon.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

what if one of the charaters is omnipresent?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Omnipresence is a state of being, and shouldn't be considered a speed. Especially when you get into whether they are spiritual omnipresent, mentally omnipresent, 3-D omnipresent, 5-D omnpresent, etc

It should at most be considered a range ability rather than a speed ability, as an omnipresent being might still only have peak human reactions

 

[VenomElite]

How do you equalize hax? Makes no sense. Reinhard's attack speed with the Longinus only is attributed to hax. Not real speed.

 

[Aceraspire]

Speed equalize is stupid anyway in matchs.What's the point of win for certain character if he's nerfed

 

[Gemmysaur]

Speed equalize is stupid anyway in matchs.What's the point of win for certain character if he's nerfed

What's the point of a match if it's horribly one-sided in a speedstomp?

Going to browse through thousands of profiles for a character that's of equal standing in AP, Durability, Speed and Haxx to the character you wish to put into a fight is extremely impractical.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, technically anybody can usually easily evaluate whichever character that would win in a real matchup, without equalisation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What's the point of a match if it's horribly one-sided in a speedstomp?

Going to browse through thousands of profiles for a character that's of equal standing in AP, Durability, Speed and Haxx to the character you wish to put into a fight is extremely impractical.

To be fair here what says all characters will start out with a blitz when for some of them its out of the ordinary for their character?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

If you are 1000,000 times faster than your opponent with your normal movement, I doubt youwould slow down to their level in character either.

 

[Gemmysaur]

To be fair here what says all characters will start out with a blitz when for some of them its out of the ordinary for their character?

Don't quote text as thick the crosswise of your palm if you can help it please, though it's not that long so that's fine.

To be fair, what's stopping the faster character from dodging the first shot and proceed to steamroll the slower guy? There's also no rule that they have to start with their strongest or widest attack, and bloodlusting both would still end in a blitz.

It's like the whole Saitama vs Genos. Saitama will rarely if at all ever start the fight by punching first, but it's moot anyway since he can just dodge the first shot, and the second, and the twenty-fifth, and the 30-thousandth.

 

[DodoNova2]

Yeah exemple: Naruto VS ichigo Naruto =MHS+ ; Ichigo= Relativistic+ No speed equalized, Ichigo HardSpeed blitz Speed equalized= Naruto Win

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Honestly speaking, this seems to be a bit of a quandry. There's doesn't seem be a clear cut way to factor this in (at least that I can see). Barring hax, if Speed Equalised means everything is equalised then characters who take advanatge of their speed for whatever fighting method are going to be at a disadvantage.

EX: Hollow Mask Ichigo. He was noted as being faster than his own Getsuga Tensho. He would fire one off and then move to another position and fire another one so that he could attack from multiple angles.

If everything gets equalised then he suddenly can't do that as it's a tactic based soley on his speed.

On the other hand, if projectile speed is not equalised, it gives the character who is should be faster the advantage. Yes, aim dodging is a thing but how many times could a character do it? That would be like expecting them to be perfectly able to dodge that attack every single time. To not make a mistake. Now, if they some kind of precog or the like that is a different matter.

At the end of the day, all of this sounds like to me that really it comes down thinking a matchup through. Yes, that's not perfect but really, what could we write that doesn't feel like we're gimping a character.

 

[Nico-v11]

How about the OP defines the speed being equalized? For example: all speed equalized or all except attack speed is equalized. This way some characters that have moves notable for their speed are restricted

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But moves notable for their speed shouldn't be restricted. Equalising combat and movement speed is enough. Attack speed should be left un-equal, and the attack speed of projectile based attacks must be left unequal, because otherwise we could just say "speed is equalised so character X runs backwards out of the effective range of character Y's attack", which is a cheap and ridiculous way for a versus battle to be fought

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

@Monarch

Then that makes a blitz, and character Y just spams that same attack since it's faster than character X reacts, which would honestly be even cheaper than speed equalized.

Even then, I do believe some speeds can't be equalized, such as Omnipresent and Immobile, or even Immeasurable, which is beyond the concept of time. I guess an Immobile character just gets up and walks around, an omnipresent character suddenly takes a physical form, and an immeasurable character is just acausal now.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But it isn't a blitz. If all speeds are equalised, characters can simply backpedal out of effective range and they will never be hit. If combat and movement speeds aren't all equalised, it could be a blitz. But if attack speed is left unequalised, and combat and movement speeds are equalised, it is still possible to aim dodge or prepare a defense or stop the attack from occurring. It's a solution that allows both for higher speeds to exist as a debating point in a battle without becoming a complete blitz for one side or the other, as it isn't simply "character Y spams that same attack" as you say, because character X can still react to the spamming of the attack and do something about it.

If I have a gun and I aim it at someone and they see I am aiming, they have time to jump out of the way, or pull up a metal plate to block the bullet or something. It's the same thing.

 

[HalfAsianFan]

I remember a thread saying that even fairly standard speeds such as that of lightning and the speed of a bullet out of a gun are equalised, meaning literally all speeds are equalised.

I think this is the easiest way to do it, since it doesn't put whether the speed being used is that of a faster or slower character into question.

 

[AquaWaifu]

One of my latest threads dealt with this, Gilgamesh vs Hakumen, with all speed equalized Hakumen was unable to deal with Gates of Babylon due it being an omidirectional sword portal fiirng thing. If attack speed is made to be unequalized, this could posibly lead to a rematch being made.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Aqua Unlikely. In terms of his ability to block omnidirectional sword spam, Hakumen's combat speed is the same as his attack speed, so even if attack speed was to be unequalised he still wouldn't be able to block them all.

 

[AquaWaifu]

But what would GoB's speed be?

 

[WarriorWare]

Equalizing speed should purely be a just-for-fun thing in VS threads IMO, and threads that do it shouldn't be under any character's Notable Victories or Notable Losses.

'Cause like, what good is a "Notable Victory" when the character only won because we pretended for a few minutes that he doesn't get blitzed to heck and back?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Equalizing speed should purely be a just-for-fun thing in VS threads IMO, and threads that do it shouldn't be under any character's Notable Victories or Notable Losses.
'Cause like, what good is a "Notable Victory" when the character only won because we pretended for a few minutes that he doesn't get blitzed to heck and back?

The problem arises when a character is so fast or slow there are no legitimate matches for them.

I dare you to find a fair match for Jotaro, or Toffee, or Metal Gear's Raiden, I could go on.

 

[WarriorWare]

That doesn't refute my point. If Jotes wins, he wins. Woops.