Soul manipulation (or soul removal) for keyblade users

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Gosh I hope this is in the right section anyway

While replaying kingdom hearts for the 4th time I realized that keyblade users repeatedly use their keyblades to remove or unlock hearts aka souls, and since we accept hearts as souls in the kingdom hearts universe I was wondering if this could be looked in to...If it makes any sense.

 

[Reppuzan]

I mean, it's addable, but it's not really combat applicable.

Besides, only Xehanort uses it anyways and that's after a fight to remove his ow Heart.

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Well riku and sora both used it in kh 1, riku to unlock maleficents heart and sora to remove his and Kairi's heart.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask The Everlasting to comment here.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Hyperverse

It's still not combat applicable in any shape or form.

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

You think you could tag him for me Antvasima

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

@Reppuzan

Even if that were the case I still think It should be looked into. Plus I was just letting you know more than Xehanort could do it.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

The Heart is not the Soul though. They are seperate.

For instance when the a person becomes a Heartless, the Body and Soul are left behind. If the will is strong enough, the person's Soul takes control of the Body and becomes a Nobody.

A person is composed of Heart, Body and Soul/Mind. This is referenced when Xehanort faces the Lingering Will as seen here. Also, this is mentioned in Secret Ansem Report 4 in KH2.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Just for further reference I'll leave the report here:

The distant days spent in that beautiful paradise are an illusion to me now.
How long have I been here, banished to the realm of nothingness?
It is only by relying upon my anger and hatred that I have been able to retain my sense of self here where all existence is nullified.
My heart is being overcome with hatred toward my apprentices, possessed by the darkness, and with the anger I feel for stupidly allowing myself to be betrayed.
Is this darkness, eating away at my heart?
I cannot continue to idle away my time here.
What are Xehanort and the others attempting to do?
I must unravel the mystery of these Ansem's Reports, intercept my apprentices, and defeat them.
That is my mission...the only way to repay the world for my sins.
Those beings who lack hearts—the Heartless—must be the key.
The darkness of the heart, made flesh. Cursed shadows who not only lack hearts, but multiply by seizing hearts from any and all living things.
Where have they come from, and where are they going?
Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.
But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?
When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?
A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.
There is little time.
If I remain in this realm much longer, I will certainly learn these answers the hard way.
My heart is already a captive of the darkness.

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Ah I see but if that's the case why does xemnas have resistance to soul manipulation not trying to be an ass or anything just pointing some things out

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Hyperverse

No problem. I hadn't really looked at Xemnas' profile but now that I do...well, it's not resistance. His profile is trying to say that he has Soul Manipulation because he can steal Hearts.

I probably say that the person who edited Xemnas' page just didn't know how to classify that ability (outside of just classifying it as Hax, I don't know what to call it), didn't know about the Heart, Body, Soul/Will dynamic or both.

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Well now that you mention it he does soul manipulation on his page as well but I was referring to his immunity to soul manipulation (do to lacking a soul.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Double checked, I see it now.

Yeah, that's...wrong. A Nobody is created from the Body and Soul of a person who Heart has been swallowed by Darkness. The Body gives the Nobody form while the Soul gives them life. So, by definition Xemnas cannot lack a Soul or he'd be dead like the Ansem Report above mentions. The game goes out of it's way to also keep bringing up that Nobodies are incomplete existences due to lacking a Heart.

I also double checked the other members of Organization XIII, none them have that of on their profiles either. But, I also noticed that they lack the Immunity to Emotional Manipulation, which they should have because they lack emotions due to having no Hearts.

In summation: whoever did Xemnas' profile seems to not have had a full understanding of what a Nobody is or their nature. In addition, none of the other Organization member got an Immunity that they should logically have.

Xemnas should get the Soul Manip and Immunity to it taken off while the other XIII members should get Immunity to Emotional Manipulation.

 

[Reppuzan]

@C2

I remember speaking with The Everlasting and he said that the Heart and Soul have been used interchangeably since Kingdom Hearts II.

I'm not sure what to do with this and he's busy trying to revise all of BlazBlue, so I would really like his opinion on the matter.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Repp

I'd like to hear the reasoning because as I understood it, it was Soul and Will that were used interchangably.

We also have Secrect Ansem Reports costantly mentioning the Heart, Soul and Body. Ansem even straight up mentions Xehanort cast aside his Body and Soul to become a Heartless.

Body: What gives you form and acts as a vessal for the Heart and Soul. It allows the Heart and Soul expression in the phsyical world.

Heart: Made up a light and darkness. It's what gives you emotions.

Soul: Gives you life. The difference between a living and non-living entity.

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Bump

 

[Reppuzan]

@Hyper

I spoke with Ever. The problem with the whole "Souls and Hearts" being separate thing is that the Heart is always treated as the core of one's existence. The reason why Nobodies are considered non-individuals is because they don't have Hearts.

Souls are never brought up in any of the conversations between Xehanort and the other villains.

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Ah I see

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

So who made the xemnas page anyway

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Repp

While it is true that Souls are not brought up in conversation, the concept of 'Will/Mind' takes the place. They are spoken of throughout in Ansem's Secret Reports when talking about and, to my knowledge, nothing contradicts this.

From Report 4:

Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.
But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?
When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?
A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.
From Report 5:
If he cast aside his own soul and body and became a Heartless, wouldn't he be able to control the otherwise intractable Heartless?
From Report 6:
I became familiar with an unusual "entity" while pursuing the truth.
It is the soul and body that remain when a being loses its heart.
From Report 7
When a Heartless is born, the body and soul left behind are reborn into this world as a different being.

 

[Reppuzan]

@C2

The #1 issue with that is that none of the characters ever bring up the Soul. For all intents and purposes, the Heart is the core of one's existence and determines whether or not something is "alive" in the traditional sense.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Repp

Actually, Yen Sid straight up describes a Nobody as a 'spirit' when he explains what they are to Sora and the gang in KHII.

 

[Reppuzan]

@C2

The soul is still never mentioned.

I can only remember one instance of the mind being mentioned outside of the Ansem Reports, when Xehanort stole Terra's body and was asking why the Lingering Will continued to resist.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm also pretty sure Yen Sid's use of "spirit" is metaphorical to refer to the empty shell that Nobodies are.

"An empty vessel whose heart has been stolen away... A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence--for you see, Nobodies don't truly exist at all."

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

So we consider the Secret Ansem Reports to be what exactly? They are in universe reports written by a character who we know studied the nature of Hearts, Darkness, Heartless and Nobodies.

I apologize if I sound stubborn but I don't like discounting information unless it's proven faulty or is directly contradicted. Also, characters in games, are not our only sources of information. A lot times, other details about the background, the history or other such information come from reports, logs, and codices that unless you pick them up, you would unaware of the information they contain because the characters doesn't speak about it.

Just because characters aren't talking about a particular aspect of a subject doesn't invalidate information we recieve on said subject. If nothing contradicts the information we are recieving from other sources in the game, why would that information be dissmissed instead of added to what we learned through characters?

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Bump

 

[Axl233]

Im agree with TheC2 here,the game cosmology should all be revised because of this.

 

[Axl233]

Bump

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Bump

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Bump

 

[The_Hyperverse_Lord]

Bump