Son Goku (Dragon Ball Super) Vs. Viewtiful Joe (Viewtiful Joe)

[TheRustyOne]

@Akreious

Goku used Solar Flare against Caulifla and in some "filler" episodes of Super.

Yes this is a nitpick.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Akreious

360 degree Ki Blast? I don't recall a single instance of this at all.

Invisible Ki Blasts? Since when?

This is how fast Joe moves relative to others under the effects of Slow. He can literally beat them before they get a chance to so much as move into position to attack. Again against Jet Black.

About the "AP Advantage". Remember what I mentioned about Joe beating Captain Blue? Captain Blue's power was only enough to create one of the seven Rainbow Oscars that Jet Black used to power himself up after one-shotting Captain Blue. So no, the AP gap isn't nearly as wide as you think it is.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Repp I think he's talking about Ki Explosion, ie when there is a massive explosion of the ki forced out of the body.

That's been a thing since the Piccolo Saga I think actually.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Somebody

But when has Goku been shown to perform either technique in character? I'm seeing a lot of stuff get thrown out, yet none of these have happened in any recent episodes or in the heat of battle against someone as strong as Goku himself.

 

[SomebodyData]

I think only once for the invisible ki blast, but a lot more often for the ki explosion in Z I believe.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Can Joe even hurt Goku's insides? Goku is so far into 3-A it's insane.

Goku Universal Low Ball.

Base Goku: Baseline Universal.

SSJ: 20X From Baseline: Stronger then Kaioken X20

SSJ2: 40X Baseline or 2X Stronger then SSJ

SSJ3: 80X Baseline or 2X Stronger then SSJ2

SSG: 160X Baseline or 2X Stronger then SSJ3

SSB: 320X Baseline or 2X Stronger then SSG

SSB Kaioken X20: 6400X Baseline from Base: 20X Stronger then SSB

So basically Low Balled Goku in Blue Kaioken X20 is over 6400 Times Baseline Universal.

Standard Battle Assumtions means this is Blue Kaioken X20 Goku.

Also remember I'm just assuming each form is just a 2 times boost and that Goku NEVER got stronger since his fight with Beerus.

So how much stronger is Joe from Baseline?

 

[Reppuzan]

Where are you getting your multipliers from?

Power levels are arbitrary in Dragon Ball and using flat numbers in any way outside of Kaio-Ken (which in of itself is debatable) is a misuse of statistics.

 

[SomebodyData]

Goku currently is rather extremely stronger than baseline tho.

Current Base Goku / Vegeta >>> SSJ Cabba >>>>> Base Cabba / U6 Saga Goku and Vegeta >RoF Goku >> SSG Goku / 3-A to be simple.

 

[Reppuzan]

Here we go with scaling wars again...

Joe > Jet Black (with the power of all seven Rainbow Oscars and the Black Film) >>>>>>>>> Jet Black >>>>>>>> Captain Blue (Who has total command over every aspect of Movieland, got one-shotted by Jet Black and turned into a Rainbow Oscar)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, that's pretty much calc stacking. SSJ isn't really proven to be stronger than Kaioken x20 anymore; although less energy consumption yes. Each form is stronger than the last, but to in unknown extent. However, even base form Goku is easily above baseline 3-A, but I'll point out one thing. Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken times 20 would at very least be 200x the baseline of 3-A.

Assuming SSB Goku was baseline during the battle with Hit, SSB Goku would be at least 10 times stronger currently. Given that Hit was superior to SSBKK x10 previously, and both characters got stronger, but SSB Goku is stronger during their rematch then SSBKK x10 was. And then he can still go Kaioken x20, and you get at least 200x. But yeah, it's impossible to determine exactly how much stronger Goku is than 3-A because even his base form is constantly growing stronger, and all of his transformations are stronger yet.

But yeah, Joe is also far above baseline 3-A making this very difficult to determine.

 

[Akreious]

Goku SSB Kaiokenx20 >>> Goku SSB Kaiokenx10 >>> Goku SSB Kaioken >> SSB Goku (Current) >>>>> SSB Goku (Goku Black Arc) >>> SSB Goku (RoF) >>> Beyond God Goku (introduction) > Super Saiyan God Goku (baseline). This is as simple of scaling I can get. Three >>> refers to a stomp. Reppu, that's fine and all, but Goku Stomps someone who Stomps someone who Stomps (this could go on for virtually all arcs of Goku from ToP to BoG) who stomps U6 Goku who Stomps a baseline Universal. Goku is simply so far ahead of baseline right now that even if Joe is somewhere in the thousands of universal, Goku still surpasses that with a wide margin. Goku simply has significantly more "superior to this person who Stomps this person who Stomps baseline universal" to scale with.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Akreious

I already talked with another Admin and he says that's a grievous misuse of scaling.

Super Saiyan forms, even Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue, aren't flat multipliers, and to make believe that they are is being horribly misleading.

 

[Akreious]

I'm not multiplying. Where did you get that. Current SSB Goku simply Stomps SSB Goku in the Goku Black Arc, who Stomps Goku in U6 who then Stomps SSB Goku in RoF who THEN Stomps baseline (SSJGod Goku). None of that are multipliers, it's just Goku's insane growth. You can challenge me on that.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Honestly I was more joking then anything. (Hard to tell on the internet since you can't emote)

In terms of scailing what Akreious is saying is far more vaild.

SSB Goku as of now is so high above Baseline it's insane.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Poincianna

I can agree with the idea that Goku is well above baseline, but using multipliers is misleading at best and downright wanking at worst.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh great another of your comments acusing about something people doesn´t say,i said he has resistance,not he is inmmune

I don´t care if Joe has better time stop,goku still has his resistance,and if Hit won easy his fight,goku wins easier for having more ap

"I don't care if Viewtiful Joe has better time stop, he still has his resistance"

Resistance to a weaker Time Stop means no resistance to something that surpasses it, especially since Goku's own resistance was already overtaxed.

"And if Hit won easy his fight,Goku wins easier due having more AP"

You kinda argued in favor of Joe there.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Ooh. I like this thread. Props to the OP.

I can't really tell who's superior in terms of AP. I think the safest bet would be Goku, granted the nature of DBS. But the two are comparable without a doubt.

Though honestly, I can't see Goku avoiding getting his insides scrambled. That 360 omnidirection wave that he has, is not something that he starts with, nor spams. Half the time, it's not even a ki wave, but just him exerting his power to blow everything away. Joe is fully capable of spamming his time slow. With time reduced by that much, there's not much Goku can truly do. Since his entire moveset relies on movement of the body for the most part, having his body incredibly slowed down means everything else is slowed down, including his cognitive abilities. Slowing down time is not just slowing down the body, but a slowing of everything, including the mind, hence why Joe can attack enemies before they can react. Partially because the time slow, as is the nature of time slow in general, also slows the ability to think. Goku's precognition wouldn't even be a factor.

Goku seems to have a range and AP advantage, but Joe's hax is far beyond what Goku has seen in terms of time manipulation, which has always involved some form of time stop. Joe's durability negation allows him to more than make up for any difference in AP.

One last point on the omindirectional blast though. With time slowed, the impact force on Joe is far less due to the practically null acceleration. Joe could feasibly just walk through it, or easily punch a way through if necessary.

 

[Theglassman12]

@teon he was able to predict the movement of a time stopper, I don't think a time slower would be any much more difficult for goku to predict.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Glassman

If you're thinking is impaired then yes, that makes it far more difficult, if not impossible to predict. Let's say it takes Goku one second to predict, and time is reduced to an eighth of it's speed, Goku now takes four times as long to predict Joe's movements. Meaing 8 entire seconds. Obviously, this is low balling both Goku's reaction speed and Joe's time dilation. But I think that example should suffice to explain how large a detriment it is.

 

[Akreious]

Compared to having to predict someone's movements when you literally froze for a full 0.5 seconds (in terms of MFTL+ characters, that's huge). Goku also notably shoots much more Ki Blasts in the ToP so that's one thing to keep in mind. Edit: and force doesn't suddenly disappear just because time slows down. That's not how it works. If I slowed time irl down to where I can casually stroll through a battlefield, but I punch a bullet, that bullet is probably gonna tear me a new one.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Akreious

You still can't seem to grasp the fact that being able to predict someone's movements doesn't mean jack if you're moving so slowly that any response is practically pointless since Joe can prance circles around Goku while punching him in the face to refill his VFX power.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Akreious

Speed is equalized, so I'm a bit confused on why speed is a discussion. Since they both have the same reaction speed in this fight, how fast they are is a nonfactor. The time dilation will be a constant factor due to speed being equalized.

You didn't really address my point about his precognition being a non factor during time slow. He won't even be able to properly perceive Joe's movements. The reason it worked on Hit is because they were comparable in speed. During a time slow, Joe is at least tens of times faster, being kind of course as the exact time dilation is unknown (it could likely be caled though. That sounds interesting).

Perhaps the force may not disappear. But, with there being severely less acceleration behind said attack (F=MA), it stands to reason that this is at least a possibility. Nonetheless, Joe can still punch his way through the key blast to get to Goku. But none of what you have said addresses how Goku gets around Joe's spamming of time slow, and ripping out Goku's insides.

 

[Akreious]

I'll get back to this thread when I wake up in the morning. I'll go look up Joe's time slow too as x10 slow looks very VERY doubtful from the few frames I've seen of Slow.

 

[Gokuforever22]

Goku wins fra

 

[EcchiOtakuTM]

Goku places mine field for a bonus. Also wouldn't speed equalized only equalize blue, not for if goku kaioken'd himself 20x stronger and faster?

I don't know how speed equalize works when characters can blatantly increase themselves further. And I'm not fully sold on joe's time slow removing precognition and it could backfire since it increases damage he takes making things even more lethal for him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Speed equalized equalizes all transformations; regardless of base or SSBKKx20

 

[Therefir]

Speed equalized "equalize" multipliers. Lol ninja'd.

 

[Akreious]

So apparently Goku has mines now. And they're very fast in deployment and numerous as hell as Goku spread them an entire path and caused explosions that went above hills and large obstacles. So that's a thing.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I don't think you guys are really taking into account how potent Joe's time slow is. None of you have discussed how Goku is able to do anything given that Joe will likely start off with slow. None of you have discussed how literally everything Goku does will be slowed down to the point where, from Joe's point of view, he'll be practically frozen in time, where Joe can rip out his insides. Goku wouldn't even be able to put the mines out because he'd be too slow. And Goku, as shown through the tournament, tends to only really use his head against stronger opponents. Not that Goku is stupid when it comes to fighting. No, the man is fantastic. But he didn't even take having his own universe potentially erased seriously, and only really started fighting seriously once Jiren started destroying him. This doesn't add much to the argument, just something interesting to point out. He rarely starts off with his best tactics first. (Destructo-Disk, mines, solar flare, kaioken, etc.) Instead, opting for hand to hand, or a ki blast. Joe goes for slow the most. Thusly, when the match starts, Goku would likely charge in, and time would slow to the point where Goku is almost frozen. And the Joe can proceed to pull out his insides. Goku does not possess a counter to this. And seeing as how Joe's time slow affects time and not speed directly, it is permitted in a speed equalized match. Just to clarify. It's no different from anyone else like Sonic or Dante, slowing down time.

 

[Akreious]

Unless I'm watching the wrong video, his time slow is NOWHERE NEAR as potent as you make it to be. Goku WONT be slowed down to basically frozen and the enemies in the games itself isn't helpless to the Slow ability.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

His time slow is pretty potent. Perhaps I'm overselling it a bit. Sure. But Goku will be no different from an enemy in the game. It's not hard for Joe to rip out his insides when the difference in speed is that great. That point still hasn't been addressed.

 

[Akreious]

Literally the only argument for Goku NOT being able to defend himself via AoE surround blast is "Time is slowed so the attack MUST be weaker!" Which makes no logical sense since energy doesn't suddenly evaporate like that. And Goku's mines went unnoticed by Jiren until he triggered them, so Goku could easily set up traps. Even IF Goku can't do all of the above, a burst of Aura has frequently been shown to have a knockback effect even on enemies equal to the fighter. And Viewtiful Joe's Time Slow (from the YouTube videos I've seen) has to be used in conjunction with a Combo/Attack so Goku still has opportunities to counterattack. And no, in character, Viewtiful Joe never 1-shots anyone or anything even against mook enemies (most attacks are flashy combos instead of straight Hax).

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Firstly, that point was literally already addressed before. I admitted that I was likely wrong, though the decreased acceleration could potentially remove the force behind the attack. However, since I wasn't sure, I dropped the point and said that, instead, since they have comparable AP, Joe could punch his way through the blast. Or perhaps even combine his zoom in along with his slow to be able to brave through it. The AoE attack isn't always effective enough to blow back those with comparable AP. Please reference above.

Secondly, it was never stated that Jiren didn't see the traps. They're literally small orbs that glow (kinda hard to miss from a practical standpoint). Jiren was strong enough to not be affected by them in the slightest. It is currently unknown whether or not he saw them and chose to ignore them, or didn't see them.

Viewtiful Joe's slow can be used at any time as long as he has his gauge, along with any of his other VFX powers. He can walk in slow motion if he so chooses. And actually some puzzles require this, as well as jumping in slow motion and the like.

Most enemies are two or three shot by Joe in slow, eliminating the need for such hax. But SBA has them willing to kill, meaning that Joe will go for the kill, which involves scrambling his insides.

 

[Therefir]

@Litentric Teon "which involves scrambling his insides" doesn't Goku resist that?, like Vegito who resisted being scrambling his insides by Buuhan.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Therefir

I don't see how. Hit's attack that strikes internally one shot him. Joe's is even more lethal than that. Also, Vegito isn't Goku. If you have a scan of Goku resisting such, I would appreciate it. However, unless it's on the same level as Joe, I don't think it will be enough.

 

[Therefir]

Well, Hit is >>>>>>>>>> Joe in terms of power.

 

[Therefir]

Also, Goku has demonstrated abilities similar to those of Vegito, as his barrier.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Perhaps. But, once again, Goku =/= Hit nor Vegito. It has never been stated that Goku possesses all of Vegito's traits. Nor has it even been heavily implied (Neither Goku nor Vegeta even use Vegito's signature sword beam). That argument doesn't seem to really fit here. That aside, I'm still confused on how one has resistance to having their insides scrambled. However, I'm farily certain that Joe could overcome such resistance, even if Goku did have such. Resistance =/= Immunity.

Hit won due to his hax beating out Joe's, not beecause of a significant AP advantage.

 

[Therefir]

Vegeta can burst apart people from the inside with telekinesis, but he doesn't use that with Goku, what I'm trying to say is that the Ki can protect your organs, not only the skin.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

But, once again, they have comparable AP. Such a thing is not something that is typically shown. And, if it does protect organs, then we can easily ask why Goku died from Hit's attack which passed through him and caused serious internal damage. Joe's attack isn't really that much different. It's simply close range, but the scrambling effect makes the internal damage far greater as it's more spread out as opposed to striking a single point. Either way, Goku has demonstrated his ability to die from attacks that hit internally. Even Jiren, someone far stronger than Goku, was stopped in his tracks by someone far weaker than him physically, that being Hit, because of an attack that struck him internally. The Ki protection of organs simply wouldn't be enough.

I'd also like to see a scan of ki protecting organs, please. That's a new concept to me.