Something about Goku's and Beerus' thread

[Sidali891]

First, I'd like to say please don't hate on me, because what I'm about to say is based on logical evidence (or at least that's what I believe) and I'd like some attention because there is proof that the DBZ universe isn't just a universe but a macrocosm.

So don't go around calling me a wanker because I think Goku and Beerus are multi universal, and here's why


So, there is 2 worlds, the mortal world, and theafterlife


The mortal world consists of 2 universes

The universe which is known ( earth, the solar system, stars, galaxies etc...)

And the demon realm, which is half of the mortal world this is where Dabura rules.

https://imgur.com/y6Fyu78

The afterlife

Haven is a planet as shown in anime.

http://imgur.com/LE6Kgcy

And Akira Toriyama's official map.

https://imgur.com/NZk73hh

Videl who has died states that it is comparable to the universe in size.

https://imgur.com/SDTAfcy

Stated in the guide.

http://imgur.com/L2u9u9J

Akira designed the map for the anime.

Hell covers the entire surface of the afterlife which makes it even wider than heaven.

Then, there is the Kaioshin realm.

Which is as large as 1/10 of the enitre macroscom.

https://imgur.com/rx2lLim


Goku is multi universal:

When Goku and Beerus clashed, both provided half the energy which makes a whole to destroy the universe.

Which secures them a universal level AT LEAST, but I'm gonna make it multi galaxy++ to nigh universal, so I wouldn't seem like a wanker.

SSB far exceeds SSG in power.

https://imgur.com/AsMTp1I

If we assume it is at least 1.5x as strong (it is presumably much higher so this may be a massive lowball) this makes Goku SSB universal.

Then we have Kaioken x10 which multiplies all stats of Goku (Strength, speed, durability etc...)

https://imgur.com/6McXW73

The assumed SSB to be 1.5x SSG (who is multi galaxy++) x10 = 2x universal (Notice how it's supposed to be MUCH more than that, but I lowballed the hell out of it so it would seem fair enough)


Beerus is multi universal:

PROOF that SSB x10 is still fodder compared to Beerus:


Ep 39 of DBS

17:18 | Goku: "I've added the Kaiō-ken to Super Saiyan Blue's power!" ÒÇÇ18:02 | Beerus: "He was planning to use that against me?!" ÒÇÇ18:06 | Whis: "Oh? A bit worried, are you?" ÒÇÇ18:11 | Beerus: "As if!" ÒÇÇ18:13 | Whis: "Oh? Then what were you thinking?" ÒÇÇ18:16 | Beerus: "Just that if he had such a convenient move, he shouldn't be so reluctant to use it!"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31269

Beerus is confident in being capable of fighting Goku with SSB + 10x

Ep 40 DBS 19:29 | Hit: "You can keep the cube. Just let me go home already." ÒÇÇ19:41 | Champa: "Not only did you constantly ignore my orders, you were a total pushover in the final match..." ÒÇÇ19:50 | Champa: "You'll never leave here alive! Every last one of you have disgraced me!" ÒÇÇ20:06 | Champa: "I'm gonna destroy you all!"

During this statement, both hit and the other U6 saiyans were very scared of Champa.

Beerus were confident in champa being capable of taking em out:

20:11 | Beerus: "Son Goku! Don't step out of line." ÒÇÇ20:16 | Goku: "But Beerus-sama..." ÒÇÇ20:17 | Beerus: "You guys did well, I suppose. Congratulations." ÒÇÇ20:22 | Beerus: "But the competition is over. Your time in the spotlight has come to an end." ÒÇÇ20:28 | Champa: "That's right. Everything is back to normal now. We're in charge of everything!"

Significance: Shows that Beerus is content with letting Champa kill his entire team.

So even if Hit = SSB 10x Goku or more.

Hit the same guy who fought Goku was still terrified by Champa.

Beerus the same guy who him and champa are at indentical levels, were confident in champas power to eredicate the entire U6 team, if he wanted to.

But there aren't any "dirrect" statements.

-This proves that SSB Kaioken x10 Goku who is multi universal by evidence is still no match for Beerus.´╗┐ Which makes him also multi universal.


Please correct me if I said anything wrong, and feel free to debunk me...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

One we don't use the guidebooks that show the dbu that includes the mortal universe, the afterlife etc because well it's size is inconsistent and we don't use guidebooks at all i think we only use what's shown in the manga and super. Two even if goku was 10x universal it still wouldn't make him or beerus multi-universal because they haven't been shown to be able to destroy an entire space-time continuum which would make them universe+, because they haven't shown to be able to do that even if they could destroy infinite universes they would only be high universal and not multi-universal to be multi-universal you have to be able to destroy or create 2 to 1000 space-time continuums.

 

[Sidali891]

One we don't use the guidebooks that show the dbu that includes the mortal universe, the afterlife etc because well it's size is inconsistent and we don't use guidebooks at all i think we only use what's shown in the manga and super. Two even if goku was 10x universal it still wouldn't make him or beerus multi-universal because they haven't been shown to be able to destroy an entire space-time continuum which would make them universe+, because they haven't shown to be able to do that even if they could destroy infinite universes they would only be high universal and not multi-universal to be multi-universal you have to be able to destroy or create 2 to 1000 space-time continuums.

Sorry I'm quite new here, so I didn't know you guys don't use guide books as evidence. But, could you show me an example as to why the guide books about the afterlife are labeled inconsistent?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think it has to do with it seeming like snakeway covers half the universe when it's only a million km so everything isn't to scale, anyway i think it's just that we don't use the guidebooks at all really it's just the manga, cause the manga is the primary canon and the size of the otherworld and demon relam etc weren't stated in the manga.

 

[Promestein]

It doesn't matter how many universes Goku destroys, if time isn't involved, he won't get higher than 3-A.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

What Prom said and basically this wikia uses a Dimension system to measure destructive power/Attack potency of a character over Universal level, so a character must have some type of space-time haxs or the feat must potray it inorder to go higher than Universal level.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Basically what Promestein and Allan said.

Destroying a universe's physical content is only 3-A. If Time and Space is involved, they'd be Low 2-C but as Allan pointed out above, a character needs to have some type of space-time hax or otherwise for those like Goku and Beerus here to be higher than just Universe/3-A level.

 

[Sidali891]

But the shockwaves of Goku's and Beerus' clash reached the Kaioshin Realm, which is outside of the mortal universe. Doesn't that have a relation with time and space hax?

 

[Promestein]

No. It's unquantifiable.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

It doesn't matter how many universes Goku destroys, if time isn't involved, he won't get higher than 3-A.

Probably not the argument

But, just for an example, aren't in Undertale case Characters like Undyne the Undying and Mettaton NEO rate at Multi-Universe lvl despite the fact that they don't have any control over time?

 

[Ryukama]

Not very knowledgable on Undertale, but I believe charaters can get Tier 2 if they are capable of destroying a timeline. Even if they cannot control or manipulate said timeline.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Having control over time is irrelevant. What matters is if the character can destroy a space-time continuum. Goku can't do that right now, so he won't be upgraded to tier 2 until he can.

 

[Mister_Death]

If for example Trunks' timeline, or even the main timeline is threatened destruction by someone other than Zeno, than we would probably get another tier 2 DB character, until then, Godku is 3-A

We keep hearing taglines that Black is threatening all of time and space so maybe we'll get something nice

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

It doesn't matter how many universes Goku destroys, if time isn't involved, he won't get higher than 3-A.

Probably not the argument
But, just for an example, aren't in Undertale case Characters like Undyne the Undying and Mettaton NEO rate at Multi-Universe lvl despite the fact that they don't have any control over time?

Pretty sure thats scaling from damaging and tanking hits from characters who are multiversal.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

If for example Trunks' timeline, or even the main timeline is threatened destruction by someone other than Zeno, than we would probably get another tier 2 DB character, until then, Godku is 3-A
We keep hearing taglines that Black is threatening all of time and space so maybe we'll get something nice

Even if someone has the power to destroy time and space, goku beating them in a fistfight doesn't help him break into tier 2 unless that time space destroying power is related to their attacks and goku tanks one of those, or unless the time space continuum is destroyed and goku then recreates the universe and timeline himself or something similar.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Well, we've seen that you are able to literally fly from the different realms to the mortal realms (Beerus and Whis), (can't remember if shown in Z), and you can literally fly from U6 to U7, (Champa, Vados, U6 team) showing that they are connected, and not exactly 2 seperate universes, but two sort of quadrants or sections or something. Are the other 10 universes connected? IDK, but I do know U6 and U7 do indeed share the same time and space. They even fought in an neutral space between the universes, adding to the point that they're not seperate universes at all, or seperate spheres like the first diagram we saw suggested. This may or may not be explained later. To move up, DB characters need to show that they can destroy space-time, or do something on that level. So basically, even if Goku could destroy both U6 and 7 with even 0.000001% of his power, or if all 12 universes really do share time and space and Zeno can indeed destroy all 12 in an instant, unless they can destroy space-time, they're still universe level. While I don't always agree with the tiers of some of the Super and GT characters due to different sayings and stuff in guide books that aren't taken into account, I 100% agree that nobody is multiversal in DB yet. To be Universe+ or Multiversal means to literally have infinite power on a 3-Dimensional scale, or show feats of being a higher tier being (like, for example the cosmic dieties, (if thats the right term) of Marvel like Death or Eternity etc), or harming a higher being while still being a 3-Dimensional being, meaning you have infinite power on a 3-Dimensional scale and can tangle with beings on a higher plane while still being 3-D (Like Pegasus Seiya from Saint Seiya. He was a normal teenage boy that wore the powerful universe class god cloth which we saw was still nothing to Hades but was able to hurt Hades, a god, who is on a higher plane than any 3-D being) after burning his cosmos to the max. For that brief moment, he had infinite power on a 3-D scale as he was able to hurt a being that was above 3-Dimensional. I know this may sound confusing, but I hope this made sense, I don't want to lose anybody here.

TLDR: Like others said before, if Goku or any DBS god can't destroy space-time, they aren't above universe level. In order to move up, you need to be able to destroy space time, which means you have infinite power on a 3-dimensional scale, meaning you can move up to Universe+ to Multi-Universe and beyond.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Technically that's High 3-A that your stating, Jo-Smooth. You need to destroy an entire space-time continuum to literally be Tier 2, not just the physical contents of the universe.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Technically that's High 3-A that your stating, Jo-Smooth. You need to destroy an entire space-time continuum to literally be Tier 2, not just the physical contents of the universe.

Right, going up to tier two from tier three requires something more abstract than raw 3d damage output. There's a limit to how hard you can punch something before you're making any progress anymore on a 3d plane.

The jump in power is quite significant. It's like if i was watching DBZ and goku punched so hard that everyone died i would go 'wow thats impressive', but then if he punched so hard that the show DBZ had never existed and I forgot that it ever had... thats the kind of jump were talking about.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The jump in power is quite significant. It's like if i was watching DBZ and goku punched so hard that everyone died i would go 'wow thats impressive', but then if he punched so hard that the show DBZ had never existed and I forgot that it ever had... thats the kind of jump were talking about.

I wish Goku punched so hard I forgot Dragonball Evolution ever existed...

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I wish Goku punched so hard I forgot Dragonball Evolution ever existed...

I forgot about it, until you mentioned it -_-

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I forgot about it, until you mentioned it -_-

Remember how back when we actually had profiles for them

shit Goku could actually solo part one Dragon Ball?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

He had Country level AP and Durability, but was pretty slow. Pretty crazy for a live action movie character.

 

[Pannaliciour]

What kind of power (tier) is required to scream a opening in the hyperbolic time chamber (gotenks and buu)?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What kind of power (tier) is required to scream a opening in the hyperbolic time chamber (gotenks and buu)?

None. It's qualified as hax.

 

[Pannaliciour]

But a weaker person can't do that. So in dbz dbs hax is power?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

No.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Honestly, I just going to leave this here.

 

[PATRICKLUKE1]

I think it has to do with it seeming like snakeway covers half the universe when it's only a million km so everything isn't to scale, anyway i think it's just that we don't use the guidebooks at all really it's just the manga, cause the manga is the primary canon and the size of the otherworld and demon relam etc weren't stated in the manga.

The manga says "legend has it" or something like that. So why would that be a problem? Sounds like toriyama just picked a big number

 

[Yukaphile]

The problem with the concept of "multiple universes" is how dimensions fit into that. Are the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm really separate universes, or just dimensions set within the larger universe? In this case, I believe the term "macrocosm" is sufficient to explain what Universe 7 truly is; it is neither a combined patch of multiple universes nor is it simply multiple dimensions within the same space-time. It's a good compromise for both sides.