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"It always comes down to the Hunter's helper to clean up after these sorts of messes"

A bit of an exaggeration, as the profiles, especially The Hunter's, aren't exactly terrible, just a bit crusty.

To start, we'll address the statistic which helped Bloodborne's combat stand out from the rest of the Soulsborne pack before Sekiro came around: Speed. To start, early-game should be a definite High Hypersonic+. This is due to being able to dodge meteors from Fluorescent Flowers, which appear as early as Layer 3 of the Pthumeru Chalice Dungeon, which is an area available after killing the Bloodstarved Beast, which can be fought before Vicar Amelia, and is even necessary to fight prior to her if you don't want to have to fork over Blood Echoes to buy the shortcut through Cathedral Ward to get to her. In essence, the first Pthumeru Chalice Dungeon is definitely an early-game area, thus the enemies within it scale to the early-game Hunter, and vice-versa. This may also impact Durability and AP since iirc Tier 7 Bloodborne scales to surviving meteors, but I'll save that for the conversation.

The second speed issue is something that should've been axed back when A Call Beyond was downgraded: the speed rating of The Hunter's fourth key. In their fourth key, they are stated to be MHS+ due to dodging A Call Beyond, which at the time of implementation was considered a sun bust, with the velocity of such a feat falling within that level. Now that A Call Beyond is considered as creating a small artificial star, instead of opening a portal to a real star and accidentally destroying it, this speed value is no longer valid. This effects their fifth key, as well, which has no additional justifications, and just upscales from the previous key.

Third, their sixth key's overall speed scales from the Moon Presence's flight speed. This is no longer acceptable due to our revised standards on scaling reactions/combat speed to flight speed.

Now, moving onto missing abilities:

Via The Old Blood, The Great Ones should receive these (maybe, maybe not applicable in combat) passives:
  • Corruption (Type 1): due to corrupting, mutating, and maddening those that imbibe the Yharnam Blood
  • Biological Manipulation: due to aforementioned mutation
  • Madness Manipulation (Type 1): again a side effect of aforementioned Corruption
  • Poison Manipulation: Ashen Blood, a strain of the Beast Scourge, poisoned its victims, hence initially being fought with poison antidote, and the victims that transformed into beasts also possess the ability to poison those that they wound
  • Healing: this is one of the main reasons that Blood Ministration became so popular in-lore
  • Power Bestowal: another main reason that the Yharnam Blood became so popular. Blood Echoes can be used to increase the power of The Hunter, and heavy amounts of blood ministration make a beast stronger when it turns, which is why clergy and hunters that become beasts are so much larger and more powerful than the regular beasts encountered on the streets, and why some of the sweaty shit-stained peasants you kill in the early game are shaped like 10-foot-tall gorillas and have a 10 meter long jump from a standing start. These properties of power bestowal even extend to inanimate objects, with bullets infused with the enhanced blood of The Hunter being able to wound beasts immune to regular gunfire, and stones and gems made from the coagulated Old Blood being able to fortify weapons and even give them new abilities

The Hunter gets resistance to the negative effects, since they basically commit substance abuse via incessant healing with Blood Vials, and can even imbibe the uncut blood of Great Ones via Rally.
Also, these abilities may actually be combat applicable, as, as seen with descent of the Blood Moon, and the subsequent descent of the Great Ones (the Lesser Amygdalae and probably Oedon), these negative effects can be exacerbated or triggered by more direct influence from the Great Ones, as seen when Gilbert, who was supposed to die of his illness before succumbing to Beasthood, is transformed into a beast after the descent of the Blood Moon. This, however, will require some more discussion.

Lastly, some missing abilities for The Hunter, as well as some erroneous abilities.

  • Change Bloodletter's Madness Manipulation from Type 3 to Type 1. It relies on Blood Manipulation to inflict Frenzy, and infecting someone with tainted blood to drive them mad falls in line more with Type 1.
  • Add Blessed to their abilities. Due to being contracted to The Hunter's Dream, they are under the control/protection of the Moon Presence
  • Add Immortality Type 9. Similarly to some TES characters such as Vivec and Dagoth Ur, their ability to resurrect into the material world is described as choosing to awaken, with all three characters "awakening" into the material world from a plane beyond it that houses their true being and consciousness. Resurrecting into a material world from a metaphysical plane beyond it where one's true being resides is the textbook definition of Type 9 Immortality. This addition may also be applicable to Great Ones, which you can kill in the waking world or in dream worlds such as the Nightmare Frontier, only to re-encounter them in the Chalice Dungeons. They only ever end up definitely permakilled if you kill them within the dream world of their own creation, such as killing the Orphan of Kos in the Hunter's Nightmare, or the Moon Presence in the Hunter's Dream, with the latter falling under new management after The Hunter turns into a squid kid

In addition, other Hunters known to have been contracted into the Hunter's Dream previously, such as Eileen and Djura, should have a key with the same player character abilities/resistances proposed in this thread, as their contract granted them these same boons. While they're never seen in-game displaying these abilities, they still canonically had these capabilities in the past.

Fin.
 
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This is due to being able to dodge meteors from Fluorescent Flowers, which appear as early as Layer 3 of the Pthumeru Chalice Dungeon, which is an area available after killing the Bloodstarved Beast, which can be fought before Vicar Amelia, and is even necessary to fight prior to her if you don't want to have to fork over Blood Echoes to buy the shortcut through Cathedral Ward to get to her
Not really, after defeating the Bloodstarved Beast, the left side door in Cathedral Ward is open, you can just go through it and reach the area behind the gate and open the shortcut. I don't see how this chalice dungeon is early game to be honest.

Should also mention that dodging lightning isn't a thing in the game. The enemies who uses this are the fish dudes in the Fishing Hamlet, and their lightnings aren't obviously lightning speed, because they come from the "sky" inside a cave, wich doesn't make any sense. And Orphan, but his lightning isn't even a real one, the way it acts and such.
 
Ok so, about the Meteor dodging for early game.
I'm not sure if we should count that, chalice dungeons are kinda really fucky when it comes to scaling. Not to mention, you don't actually need to buy the key via doing that.
Honestly, I'd avoid that for right now and focus on things we absolutely know for sure.
 
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Not really, after defeating the Bloodstarved Beast, the left side door in Cathedral Ward is open, you can just go through it and reach the area behind the gate and open the shortcut. I don't see how this chalice dungeon is early game to be honest.

Should also mention that dodging lightning isn't a thing in the game. The enemies who uses this are the fish dudes in the Fishing Hamlet, and their lightnings aren't obviously lightning speed, because they come from the "sky" inside a cave, wich doesn't make any sense. And Orphan, but his lightning isn't even a real one, the way it acts and such.
I meant Bloodstarved Beast is necessary to open the door. Gerhman also implores that you use find and use said Chalice when you reach Cathedral Ward, so both in terms of gameplay and lore it's intended for tackling in the early-game, by relatively newbie Hunters

Devs probably didn't feel like coding that attack to not work indoors, likely not worth the effort given that it then kneecaps an entire group of enemies by robbing them of their main attack, which screws with the balance of the game's difficulty. In universe it doesn't make much sense, but I can overlook it for meta reasons
 
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Rejected due to comparisons to TES.
 
Seriously, though:

I agree the speed stuff is questionable. Pthumeru chalices are generally fairly early game, and become downright trivial if approached later, but how they fit in the scaling is indeed fucky.

I think some of the Blood stuff is overplayed, since these are essentially just allergic reactions by humans to the Blood. Still, you're free to include them as they aren't objectively wrong.

Same thing here, for Immortality. Chalice Dungeons really shouldn't be used to make sweeping changes to the main game.
 
Seriously, though:

I agree the speed stuff is questionable. Pthumeru chalices are generally fairly early game, and become downright trivial if approached later, but how they fit in the scaling is indeed fucky.

I think some of the Blood stuff is overplayed, since these are essentially just allergic reactions by humans to the Blood. Still, you're free to include them as they aren't objectively wrong.

Same thing here, for Immortality. Chalice Dungeons really shouldn't be used to make sweeping changes to the main game.
Chalice Dungeons are canon, but tough as hell to reconcile since aside from the first Chalice found in Old Yharnam there's no set timeline at all in how they're tackled in comparison to the main game. But, since they are canon, we should strive to reconcile them with the rest of the game as best we can

Aside from that, what do you think about Hunter's proposed Type 9?
 
I think you mis-portray Bloodborne as a material world where really it is the exact opposite- the player "awakens" from the true material world into the metaphysical (a dream). Their resurrection isn't inherently shown to be based on this fact, though, since other characters also dwelling in the real world don't have this ability- the Hunter's inability to die is based upon their status as the recipient of the Hunter's Dream, not that they come from some "higher plane".
 
I think you mis-portray Bloodborne as a material world where really it is the exact opposite- the player "awakens" from the true material world into the metaphysical (a dream). Their resurrection isn't inherently shown to be based on this fact, though, since other characters also dwelling in the real world don't have this ability- the Hunter's inability to die is based upon their status as the recipient of the Hunter's Dream, not that they come from some "higher plane".
They don't come from a higher plane, no, but in their state in-game, they are bound to a metaphysical plane that is separate from the material world, and killing them in that metaphysical plane renders them mortal again. Not quite textbook as I had initially said, but I'm still of the mind that it ought to qualify for Type 9, since their true being is still residing in a separate plane from their corporeal, kill-able body, if only temporarily and conditionally.

As for interpretation of Bloodborne, I'm well aware of the "awakening into the 'dream'" angle, cuz it's kinda one of the main thematic points of the game, but that's more a philosophical/intellectual awakening, an epiphany which reveals the true nature of reality. What I'm referring to is a more literal, physical kind of awakening, where it just so happens that the dream is a reality that's just as real and valid as the waking world. Plus the teleport mechanic that allows you to move from the Hunter's Dream to the corporeal world is literally referred to in-game as "Awakening"
 
A minor nitpick, but your point about "killing them in that metaphysical plane renders them mortal again" isn't quite accurate due to the Hunter's Dream resurrecting the Hunter- but aye, I get your point. I can begrudgingly accept your proposal for Type 9.
 
So begrudging agree on Great One blood passives and Hunter Type 9, disagree with HHS+ and Great One Type 9 due to Chalice Dungeons being a pain to reconcile with the rest of the game and therefore currently being unreliable to base content revision on. What's your thoughts on the rest of the proposed changes?
 
So begrudging agree on Great One blood passives and Hunter Type 9, disagree with HHS+ and Great One Type 9 due to Chalice Dungeons being a pain to reconcile with the rest of the game and therefore currently being unreliable to base content revision on. What's your thoughts on the rest of the proposed changes?
Blessed seems pointless and is covered by Type 8 already, otherwise these are fine.
 
Not really, after defeating the Bloodstarved Beast, the left side door in Cathedral Ward is open, you can just go through it and reach the area behind the gate and open the shortcut. I don't see how this chalice dungeon is early game to be honest.

Should also mention that dodging lightning isn't a thing in the game. The enemies who uses this are the fish dudes in the Fishing Hamlet, and their lightnings aren't obviously lightning speed, because they come from the "sky" inside a cave, wich doesn't make any sense. And Orphan, but his lightning isn't even a real one, the way it acts and such.
I still argue for the first Pthumeru Chalice being early-game, and I still agree with MHS, but since verse discussion and content revision are obviously group efforts where anyone can pitch in, I want to further discuss both, and see where it goes before we wrap up this thread

Plus Bloodborne's speed is getting screwed bad enough in this thread as-is lol, pretty safe to say MHS+ Bloodborne is reduced to atoms
 
Also, I'd like to know more about why the Vicar Amelia shockwave calc should go to hell. Vetting calc accuracy isn't really my strong suit
 
When did a Call Beyond finally get nerfed?
Good stuff.
A while ago. Previous justification (the raw translation saying it works by opening a portal to a star and destroying it) was thrown out in favor of something more in-line with the in-game description (creating a small star). Iirc A Call Beyond got smited to Island Level
 
Doesn't Amygdala's laser not break our standards at all? Maybe we can use that.

Also, isn't Kos.or Orphan responsible for the Nightmare where there's literally a bottomless sea and it's called a bottomless curse? And the dreams and such are layered over top of each other in Bloodborne. Wouldn't this effect the tiers?
 
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