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First CRT ever so if I screw up on how to format this let me know. So anyways i was thinking about shin megami tensei and persona and came up with an argument that i personally haven’t seen for either series yet. This will be a high hyperversal argument for shin megami tensei and persona, they both go hand in hand.
Ok, so this all stems from Kagutsuchi creating/stabilizing the entire Amala universe, as it all got destroyed when he died. And as we all know the Amala universe has an infinite amount vortex worlds. Well, lets look at the vortex world. Just one vortex world has been stated by the creator of nocturne, Kazuma Kaneko, to be created based on the gnostic view of the universe, specifically the one involving spheres, bubble theory and hollow earth theory. We can leave HE theory and bubble theory alone for now. Now the gnostic view of the universe involving spheres, was believed to have 365 spheres on top of ourselves, and each sphere was believed to be a higher layer of existence. So we have 365 dimensions on top of our 4, making Kagutsuchi 369th dimensional. Now someone might say that that can’t be right or that number just sounds too high, well I would've been content with the at first glance normal of 7-8, but even the Gnostics back then believed that this number was low and 365 was closer to the normal amount. So now we have 369-D Kagutsuchi, now lets bring the bubble theory into this. Bubble theory explains that our universe infinitely expands into higher dimensions of infinity for eternity. So we slap that on our 369 dimensional construct and we have an infinite dimensional hierarchy in one of an infinite amount of vortex worlds as it infinitely expands.
Oh but it doesn’t stop there, well it does for Kagutsuchi. It was also stated by Kazuma Kaneko that vortex worlds are made up by manikins, and they were even referred to as “cells” of the vortex world which would mean that manikins would reasonably scale to this high 1-B construct, being the building blocks of it and all. and was even stated to be the vortex world. Keep in mind that base manikins are fodder in nocturne, even to go as far as to call themselves “destined to be slaves to demons” implying that they can’t fight back from being too weak. Now this matters because the manikin that states this says “demons” as in a whole. You normally wouldn’t consider this to mean EVERY demon in the verse and instead every demon in the game it was said in, because that's more consistent and reasonable to accept. Well it just so happens that the (2nd) weakest demon in the whole series is in this game, Pixie. its so apparent how weak pixie is that it was literally used as a benchmark by the weakest demon just to prove how weak she is. And base manikins basically just admitted to being weaker than/unable to fight a pixie. So basically, the (2nd) weakest demon in the whole series would body a high 1-B character that is very explicitly fodder in the verse and is stated by word of god to be that strong. This straight up makes every single demon high 1-B. And we’re still not even done yet. As i’ve said before there are an infinite amount of these high 1-B structures in the Amala universe and Kagutsuchi stabilizes it. Which qualifies Kagutsuchi for a low 1-A rating “Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.” so Kagutsuchi, other avatars of yhvh and anyone who scales to them or has similar feats/showings would be low 1-A, such as but not limited too, mem aleph, Metatron, shekinah, demiurge, Kuzuryu, Polaris, lucifer[devil form], Satan, Ancient of Days, Sandalphon, YHVH’s manifestation head and demonized form, etc. and higher tiers should be upgraded to 1-A, Vishnu-Flynn, YHVH(full form), Canopus and anyone who scales like Nanashi, Hibiki, and Abel. And Stephen and the Axiom, should be placed in the high 1-A tier, Stephen be placed in baseline and the axiom be placed in the mid-high end of the tier.
Now i know what a lot of you are thinking “this throws the whole series scaling out of whack, everything is an outlier now,” “everyone’s high 1-B but the expanse is a 5th dimensional construct,” “how can everyone be high 1-B if yhvh only has 9-D feat?.” I’ll explain whatever's necessary to prove that it makes logical sense and is consistent within the games. First of all, the expanse is comprised of infinite universes created by all uncountably infinite demons and each universe is created using the power of the respective demon, meaning every universe/sector in the expanse is a high hyperversal construct which makes the expanse a low 1-A construct which explains further proves why low 1-A characters as they are. Secondly, manikins being scared of everything is not an argument to prove that not every demon scales. Manikins are only scared of things that could possibly kill them which is why they weren’t as scared when they realized the demi-fiend wouldn’t hurt them and was so scared of every demon that sided with mantra, but they knew that demi-fiend was more than powerful enough to kill them all which is telling enough. Third of all, YHVH’s dimensional feat isn’t a limitation, its never shown or stated that he used all of his power to create that structure, and he is infinitely greater than any and all of his avatars put together, as his avatars are just that, avatars. And on top of that YHVH’s universe is beyond the Amala universe, which i proved is low 1-A. “But the demon compendium says this.” demon compendium entries are not limitations either, they are just what humans believe that they are capable of doing, so its more of a “no shit” that they’re able to do it now. “But what about the ICBM’s in smt1 that was gonna kill Kazuya?” those nukes were specifically made to kill demons and were launched by Thor, its not that far of a stretch that Thor amped them in some way, shape or form. “In this specific version of Gnosticism, it puts the monad, in this case would be Kagutsuchi, as outerversal” sadly no, as only the spheres were mentioned for the conception of the vortex world, not the entirety of Gnosticism, those are the only things that should be included. And now Stephen and the axiom, pretty self explanatory. One is composite smt/persona and the other is capable of interacting with said composite, even if it is to a miniscule degree.
Speaking of which, persona scalers, I’m not leaving you guys out of this. Persona scales to this thanks to the shin megami tensei if… protag (which we don’t have on the wiki for some reason) Tamaki’s involvement in all this comes from her being heavily repressed, weakened, and out of shape and practice when it comes to fighting with demons, and even with her being much weaker, she is still strong enough to control a Nekomata which is still stronger than a pixie meaning she is still high hyperversal while weakened at that point and king Leo still beat her, meaning Philemon and Nyarlathotep, who is obviously stronger than king Leo, is at the very least high hyperversal and since they are the embodiment of the collective unconsciousness, every final villain in Persona scales to them in some way, shape or form. Pandora was able to take control of the DEVA system which utilizes the collective unconsciousness’ power, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are embodiments of it, true body Nyx is the embodiment of the shadow archetype and archetypes makes up the collective unconsciousness. Izanami created the midnight channel which is connected to the collective unconsciousness. Yaldabaoth is the only one that would scale above this for being the administrator for the collective unconsciousness, and possibly be low 1-A, but could very well be high 1-B but to a higher extent than Philemon or Nyarlathotep.
So, questions? Comments? Insults? Dumb idea?
Ok, so this all stems from Kagutsuchi creating/stabilizing the entire Amala universe, as it all got destroyed when he died. And as we all know the Amala universe has an infinite amount vortex worlds. Well, lets look at the vortex world. Just one vortex world has been stated by the creator of nocturne, Kazuma Kaneko, to be created based on the gnostic view of the universe, specifically the one involving spheres, bubble theory and hollow earth theory. We can leave HE theory and bubble theory alone for now. Now the gnostic view of the universe involving spheres, was believed to have 365 spheres on top of ourselves, and each sphere was believed to be a higher layer of existence. So we have 365 dimensions on top of our 4, making Kagutsuchi 369th dimensional. Now someone might say that that can’t be right or that number just sounds too high, well I would've been content with the at first glance normal of 7-8, but even the Gnostics back then believed that this number was low and 365 was closer to the normal amount. So now we have 369-D Kagutsuchi, now lets bring the bubble theory into this. Bubble theory explains that our universe infinitely expands into higher dimensions of infinity for eternity. So we slap that on our 369 dimensional construct and we have an infinite dimensional hierarchy in one of an infinite amount of vortex worlds as it infinitely expands.
Oh but it doesn’t stop there, well it does for Kagutsuchi. It was also stated by Kazuma Kaneko that vortex worlds are made up by manikins, and they were even referred to as “cells” of the vortex world which would mean that manikins would reasonably scale to this high 1-B construct, being the building blocks of it and all. and was even stated to be the vortex world. Keep in mind that base manikins are fodder in nocturne, even to go as far as to call themselves “destined to be slaves to demons” implying that they can’t fight back from being too weak. Now this matters because the manikin that states this says “demons” as in a whole. You normally wouldn’t consider this to mean EVERY demon in the verse and instead every demon in the game it was said in, because that's more consistent and reasonable to accept. Well it just so happens that the (2nd) weakest demon in the whole series is in this game, Pixie. its so apparent how weak pixie is that it was literally used as a benchmark by the weakest demon just to prove how weak she is. And base manikins basically just admitted to being weaker than/unable to fight a pixie. So basically, the (2nd) weakest demon in the whole series would body a high 1-B character that is very explicitly fodder in the verse and is stated by word of god to be that strong. This straight up makes every single demon high 1-B. And we’re still not even done yet. As i’ve said before there are an infinite amount of these high 1-B structures in the Amala universe and Kagutsuchi stabilizes it. Which qualifies Kagutsuchi for a low 1-A rating “Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.” so Kagutsuchi, other avatars of yhvh and anyone who scales to them or has similar feats/showings would be low 1-A, such as but not limited too, mem aleph, Metatron, shekinah, demiurge, Kuzuryu, Polaris, lucifer[devil form], Satan, Ancient of Days, Sandalphon, YHVH’s manifestation head and demonized form, etc. and higher tiers should be upgraded to 1-A, Vishnu-Flynn, YHVH(full form), Canopus and anyone who scales like Nanashi, Hibiki, and Abel. And Stephen and the Axiom, should be placed in the high 1-A tier, Stephen be placed in baseline and the axiom be placed in the mid-high end of the tier.
Now i know what a lot of you are thinking “this throws the whole series scaling out of whack, everything is an outlier now,” “everyone’s high 1-B but the expanse is a 5th dimensional construct,” “how can everyone be high 1-B if yhvh only has 9-D feat?.” I’ll explain whatever's necessary to prove that it makes logical sense and is consistent within the games. First of all, the expanse is comprised of infinite universes created by all uncountably infinite demons and each universe is created using the power of the respective demon, meaning every universe/sector in the expanse is a high hyperversal construct which makes the expanse a low 1-A construct which explains further proves why low 1-A characters as they are. Secondly, manikins being scared of everything is not an argument to prove that not every demon scales. Manikins are only scared of things that could possibly kill them which is why they weren’t as scared when they realized the demi-fiend wouldn’t hurt them and was so scared of every demon that sided with mantra, but they knew that demi-fiend was more than powerful enough to kill them all which is telling enough. Third of all, YHVH’s dimensional feat isn’t a limitation, its never shown or stated that he used all of his power to create that structure, and he is infinitely greater than any and all of his avatars put together, as his avatars are just that, avatars. And on top of that YHVH’s universe is beyond the Amala universe, which i proved is low 1-A. “But the demon compendium says this.” demon compendium entries are not limitations either, they are just what humans believe that they are capable of doing, so its more of a “no shit” that they’re able to do it now. “But what about the ICBM’s in smt1 that was gonna kill Kazuya?” those nukes were specifically made to kill demons and were launched by Thor, its not that far of a stretch that Thor amped them in some way, shape or form. “In this specific version of Gnosticism, it puts the monad, in this case would be Kagutsuchi, as outerversal” sadly no, as only the spheres were mentioned for the conception of the vortex world, not the entirety of Gnosticism, those are the only things that should be included. And now Stephen and the axiom, pretty self explanatory. One is composite smt/persona and the other is capable of interacting with said composite, even if it is to a miniscule degree.
Speaking of which, persona scalers, I’m not leaving you guys out of this. Persona scales to this thanks to the shin megami tensei if… protag (which we don’t have on the wiki for some reason) Tamaki’s involvement in all this comes from her being heavily repressed, weakened, and out of shape and practice when it comes to fighting with demons, and even with her being much weaker, she is still strong enough to control a Nekomata which is still stronger than a pixie meaning she is still high hyperversal while weakened at that point and king Leo still beat her, meaning Philemon and Nyarlathotep, who is obviously stronger than king Leo, is at the very least high hyperversal and since they are the embodiment of the collective unconsciousness, every final villain in Persona scales to them in some way, shape or form. Pandora was able to take control of the DEVA system which utilizes the collective unconsciousness’ power, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are embodiments of it, true body Nyx is the embodiment of the shadow archetype and archetypes makes up the collective unconsciousness. Izanami created the midnight channel which is connected to the collective unconsciousness. Yaldabaoth is the only one that would scale above this for being the administrator for the collective unconsciousness, and possibly be low 1-A, but could very well be high 1-B but to a higher extent than Philemon or Nyarlathotep.
So, questions? Comments? Insults? Dumb idea?
