SM Universe Revision

[Iamunanimousinthat]

We are taking the raw manga panel and asking a translator to translate it to get accurate translation of that panel. We are not using a translation note to establish things into the series,there is a clear difference.

OP literally asked their opinion to use it as evidence in a downgrade. If i can't use official translator notes for an upgrade. You can't use them for a downgrade.

 

[Vietthai96]

I just woke up bruhhhhh

Snip

FinePoint didn't said dimension automatically = universe.

Professional Translator's Note printed alongside re-printed Updated Manga approved by Manga Author versus Translation opinions from Online Users with no authority or knowledge about the Work.

Professional translator's note that expresses their personal viewpoint doesn't matter, and they even contradicted themselves by mentioning Einstein cosmological constant Lambda and linked it to a spatially and temporally infinite static universe. Not only it is just their personal viewpoint, but also said viewpoint is a completely wrong

On the other hand, what Profectus posted was simply a translation for the Japanese texts and the translators only explains about the nature of the language, not adding any personal viewpoint about cosmology or something.

Honestly I can't believe i need to explain this simple situation

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

FinePoint didn't said dimension automatically = universe.

This is complete non-sequitur.

Professional translator's note that expresses their personal viewpoint doesn't matter, and they even contradicted themselves by mentioning Einstein cosmological constant Lambda and linked it to a spatially and temporally infinite static universe. Not only it is just their personal viewpoint, but also said viewpoint is a completely wrong

On the other hand, what Profectus posted was simply a translation for the Japanese texts and the translators only explains about the nature of the language, not adding any personal viewpoint about cosmology or something.

Honestly I can't believe i need to explain this simple situation

OP literally asked them if a term was ambiguous. That's asking for their opinion. Be consistent.

 

[Vietthai96]

OP literally asked them if a term was ambiguous. That's asking for their opinion. Be consistent.

OP was asking for the linguistic of the language

Your translation note is adding personal viewpoint to cosmological structure of the verse

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

OP was asking for the linguistic of the language

Your translation note is adding personal viewpoint to cosmological structure of the verse

This is extremely hypocritical.

Licensed translator approved by official channels giving a definition of a word used in a manga = personal viewpoint

random people on the internet stating whether a word used is ambiguous is acceptable?

If the note can't be used, then the translators opinions can't be used either.

 

[SailorRanger64]

On the other hand, what Profectus posted was simply a translation for the Japanese texts and the translators only explains about the nature of the language, not adding any personal viewpoint about cosmology or something.

Honestly I can't believe i need to explain this simple situation

A translation you say? Like the official Eternal Edition that has been stated as official? Then why bother even using the raws or a different translation when we have an official translated version of the manga? If OP is truly using a different translation, then not only do I disagree, OP would have to start over and use the official translations for their argument.

 

[Robo432343]

Translator notes are not canon unless the original author explicitly adopts or confirms them...why is this so hard to understand. The only way translator notes can be canon is if the author explicitly says “this explanation is correct” or the author reuses the explanation themselves in an interview, guidebook, or something. Other than its just simply not canon.

 

[SailorRanger64]

Translator notes are not canon unless the original author explicitly adopts or confirms them...why is this so hard to understand

Nobody has proven these notes are non-canon, nor have I seen any evidence of them being non-canon, if you want me to see your side of this, simply show proof of the translator notes being non-canon.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also I want to point out another hypocrisy. Multiple people telling me that I could only stick with one translation, yet OP can use three different translations?

Translator notes are not canon unless the original author explicitly adopts or confirms them...why is this so hard to understand

I'm not arguing to use the translator note. I am pointing out that OP is also using translator's opinions, and a mod thinks its okay but wrong for us.

Nobody has proven these notes are non-canon, nor have I seen any evidence of them being non-canon, if you want me to see your side of this, simply show proof of the translator notes being non-canon.

They don't have to prove it non-canon. But if we can't use it because it's a "personal view", then the same should apply across the broad.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Anyways. I don't want to derail this any further. The conclusions were basically the same, and if I can't use translator's notes, then OP can't ask other translators their opinion on how words are used and use that as evidence.

 

[Killerdrone123]

This is like calling 32 degrees Fahrenheit and 0 degrees Celsius adjacent. They mean the same things. Where in the wiki does it state you can't use the definition of infinite to call something infinite?

And again, the graveyard doesn't have anything to do with reincarnation.

The use of the term “Never ending cycle" here refers to a process, not to the actual size of the space. I am not sure how else to clarify this point. If anything, this serves as even weaker evidence than the static cosmos argument, since at least one aspect of that definition explicitly used the term “infinity,” even if that usage was ultimately incorrect.

I did not in fact say that.

Well you didn't, the blog did. Lephyr asked us to pick stuff that will be affected and this is one of those

The Galaxy Cauldron: High 1A+ Upgrade

it's called interpretation bud. No you quite literally added "sustained" and "die out eventually" with no actual basis. The statement isn't being unclear or anything, your interpretation is putting stuff that isn't there. Also, Cosmos isn't talking about Life itself, she's talking about the...

vsbattles.com

Please actually read the page that FinePoint linked:

Within this wiki it is not acceptable, and considered confusing, to use the term for anything other than spatial and temporal dimensions.

This includes inappropriately using it for universes, pocket universes, realms, worlds, or realities, etcetera.

Universe-sized Realms Guidelines
It is common for fictional characters to be scaled based on creating one or multiple "Worlds", "Dimensions", or "Realms". However, many users may often be confused on whether those are synonyms of universes or simply pocket realities. They may have indications of being quite large, but they still require some more in depth or specific evidence to truly be universes.Otherwise, they will simply be pocket realities judged by their known size.

It's is literally not a false equivalence. My translator note was the translator defining static universe which was used in the scan. The links provided was literally other translators defining the terms used in the scan as well. The exact same scenario.

No, your translator note wasn't translating anything, they were adding additional, non-canon and unsupported evidence. On-site/off-site translations do none of that, they're literally just translations. I can't believe we're having this conversation right now.

I literally said the conclusion would be an unknown.

Also, even if the solar system had one single route to an alternate dimension, there are trillions and trillions of other solar systems, the number of dimensional routes would still be high.

This is a complete non sequitur. The claim that it would be “high” is being made without any supporting basis. With the infinite universe interpretation no longer applicable which was previously the only evidence supporting that position and given that the verse itself provides no direct statements on the matter, the correct conclusion would be that it remains unknown, not “high.”

 

[Vietthai96]

A translation you say? Like the official Eternal Edition that has been stated as official? Then why bother even using the raws or a different translation when we have an official translated version of the manga? If OP is truly using a different translation, then not only do I disagree, OP would have to start over and use the official translations for their argument.

Official translation isn't absolute, we have always been doing this, many verse often found out that original japanese context many time was vastly different from official translation and using Japanese raw scan with translation instead of official translation

Anyway i just want to point this out, official translation is just a translation among many others, it is just that they was officially published while other translations are other translation groups (either 1 or many translator) translating the same thing. There are no precedence that official translation is only absolutely right translation, they are just mostly considered as official localization

Also i don't understand here, if you guys want OP to only use official translations, shouldn't all the japanese scans with translation attracted to them in the cosmology blog be removed too?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The use of the term “Never ending cycle" here refers to a process, not to the actual size of the space. I am not sure how else to clarify this point. If anything, this serves as even weaker evidence than the static cosmos argument, since at least one aspect of that definition explicitly used the term “infinity,” even if that usage was ultimately incorrect.

Where is the word cycle being used?

Well you didn't, the blog did. Lephyr asked us to pick stuff that will be affected and this is one of those

And in my write up to Lephyr was what you pointed out included?

Please actually read the page that FinePoint linked:

I actually did read what he said, and I am adhering to it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

This is a complete non sequitur. The claim that it would be “high” is being made without any supporting basis. With the infinite universe interpretation no longer applicable which was previously the only evidence supporting that position and given that the verse itself provides no direct statements on the matter, the correct conclusion would be that it remains unknown, not “high.”

I already provided evidence. If you don't agree with it then don't agree with it. Stop with this endless back and forth.

Also i don't understand here, if you guys want OP to only use official translations, shouldn't all the japanese scans with translation attracted to them in the cosmology blog be removed too?

You keep skipping over the actual argument. OP didn't ask for a translation, they asked for an opinion on a translation.

 

[Vietthai96]

You keep skipping over the actual argument. OP didn't ask for a translation, they asked for an opinion on a translation.

The reply you quoted isn't to you, but to SailorRanger who insisted that OP must only use official translation

If OP is truly using a different translation, then not only do I disagree, OP would have to start over and use the official translations for their argument.

Also again, OP asked for the linguistic of the language not asking translator to provide their view on what SM cosmology should be, what universe theory the verse use. Don't tell me that asking a text being singular or plural somehow = asking what cosmology theory the verde is using, if you seriously think this then i have nothing to say

 

[SailorRanger64]

Official translation isn't absolute, we have always been doing this, many verse often found out that original japanese context many time was vastly different from official translation and using Japanese raw scan with translation instead of official translation

Anyway i just want to point this out, official translation is just a translation among many others, it is just that they was officially published while other translations are other translation groups (either 1 or many translator) translating the same thing. There are no precedence that official translation is only absolutely right translation, they are just mostly considered as official localization

Also i don't understand here, if you guys want OP to only use official translations, shouldn't all the japanese scans with translation attracted to them in the cosmology blog be removed too?

Yes I know the translations might not always be perfect, especially if there was nothing but the raws, but we do have a English translation that has been given to us. So if we have an official translation then why the necessity for others besides the raws and English ones?

I'm asking for consistency because these specific threads, and I noticed it's the Sailor Moon threads recently that get like this like this one, have gone back and forth with no end because too many "translations".

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The reply you quoted isn't to you

Apologies, I had interpretated "you guys" as to being towards the proponents of the series.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Where is the word cycle being used?

My bad a procession,Funeral procession to be exact. Still; nowhere near enough context to support outright infinite size.

And in my write up to Lephyr was what you pointed out included?

He picked it up first, that's why.

I actually did read what he said, and I am adhering to it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

adhering to it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing

I already provided evidence. If you don't agree with it then don't agree with it. Stop with this endless back and forth.

You're not or you'd realize that dimensions =/= universe nor did he ever once say this nor do any of our standards or "wiki rules" as you said remotely imply this.

You keep skipping over the actual argument. OP didn't ask for a translation, they asked for an opinion on a translation.

You didn't provide anything that would counter it.

There is no proof that every solar system in the universe has a dimensional path to another dimension. Most solar systems are very different from ours, so assuming this applies everywhere isn’t supported.

 

[Vietthai96]

Apologies, I had interpretated "you guys" as to being towards the proponents of the series.

No problem, it was also my fault somewhat, i have a habit writing "you guys", especially i'm using phone currently

Yes I know the translations might not always be perfect, especially if there was nothing but the raws, but we do have a English translation that has been given to us. So if we have an official translation then why the necessity for others besides the raws and English ones?

You literally answered your own question......

I'm asking for consistency because these specific threads, and I noticed it's the Sailor Moon threads recently that get like this like this one, have gone back and forth with no end because too many "translations".

Nahh no, seriously, every japanese-originated verses have these issues, even with having official translation.

By your logic, we should not use guidebook and side material which mostly in japanese only because publisher who releases official english translation mostly get authorized to publish the main material only (manga, novel)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

My bad a procession,Funeral procession to be exact. Still; nowhere near enough context to support outright infinite size.

Did I say it supports infinite size?

You're not or you'd realize that dimensions =/= universe nor did he ever once say this nor do any of our standards or "wiki rules" as you said remotely imply this.

These alternate dimensions in sailor moon are recognized as universes on the wiki. Go make a downgrade thread and stop arguing over nothing.

There is no proof that every solar system in the universe has a dimensional path to another dimension. Most solar systems are very different from ours, so assuming this applies everywhere isn’t supported.

Almost every planet in Sailor Moon has life. Stars have life. The entire world is supernatural. It's not far fetched that other solar systems likely have dimensional routes themselves which is why I said the number of alternate universes is unknown but possibly a high number. I am not arguing any further over something that's not tierable. Move on.

 

[Robo432343]

Yes I know the translations might not always be perfect, especially if there was nothing but the raws, but we do have a English translation that has been given to us. So if we have an official translation then why the necessity for others besides the raws and English ones?

I'm asking for consistency because these specific threads, and I noticed it's the Sailor Moon threads recently that get like this like this one, have gone back and forth with no end because too many "translations".

Even with an official English translation, we need the raws because Japanese allows meanings that English can’t show, and the translation has to pick one. The raws are the only way to verify what was actually said.

 

[Vietthai96]

Even with an official English translation, we need the raws because Japanese allows meanings that English can’t show, and the translation has to pick one. The raws are the only way to verify what was actually said.

Just to add to this comment, sometime official translation actually changed the meaning of the original text into something else completely

Because we need to remember that, official translation or other translation out there, most of the time they don't care about the meaning of the text as hard as we do, cause as long as the translation delivered the story, it is finished its main purpose

 

[SailorRanger64]

You literally answered your own question......


Nahh no, seriously, every japanese-originated verses have these issues, even with having official translation.

By your logic, we should not use guidebook and side material which mostly in japanese only because publisher who releases official english translation mostly get authorized to publish the main material only (manga, novel)

No I'm stating a fact, first of all you would have to go and find proof that the English translation is not accurate to the manga and then find the actual accurate translation, I want to see proof of this.

I didn't say that nor is that my logic, I said too many translations outside of official ones makes this more complicated than it has to be. This is nothing more than the same thing that's been going on with these threads with no clarification.

 

[Robo432343]

No I'm stating a fact, first of all you would have to go and find proof that the English translation is not accurate to the manga and then find the actual accurate translation, I want to see proof of this.

I didn't say that nor is that my logic, I said too many translations outside of official ones makes this more complicated than it has to be. This is nothing more than the same thing that's been going on with these threads with no clarification.

You don’t start by assuming a translation is accurate and then demand proof it isn’t. You verify accuracy by comparing it to the original language. That’s the only way accuracy can be established at all. Proof of accuracy or inaccuracy can only come from comparing the English translation to the Japanese raws. Without the raws, there’s nothing to measure the translation against. And from what i'm seeing, OP is actually using the raws to support their argument, somethings the opposition can't really defend against.

 

[Vietthai96]

No I'm stating a fact, first of all you would have to go and find proof that the English translation is not accurate to the manga and then find the actual accurate translation, I want to see proof of this.

OP was literally doing this?, if we don't translate the original japanese texts, how can we find out the English one isn't accurate or not?. If we don't check anything, how can we find the issue? Ayo?

 

[SailorRanger64]

You don’t start by assuming a translation is accurate and then demand proof it isn’t. You verify accuracy by comparing it to the original language. That’s the only way accuracy can be established at all.

But yet the whole point of this thread is that it's not accurate to the original language and trying to disprove it by comparing it to the original language, the polar opposite of what you're saying.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You don’t start by assuming a translation is accurate and then demand proof it isn’t. You verify accuracy by comparing it to the original language. That’s the only way accuracy can be established at all.

Well in this case, OP posted a translation that matched the official translation, and then went and asked leading questions to other translators to get an opinion that matched his argument.

 

[SailorRanger64]

OP was literally doing this?, if we don't translate the original japanese texts, how can we find out the English one isn't accurate or not?. If we don't check anything, how can we find the issue? Ayo?

By asking leading questions? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that, I stand by my statement of disagreeing with this thread.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Wouldn't it be tertiary canon under our rules? And thus follow this:


If not, then fair enough. I have to agree with the downgrade fully then.

Actually I want to bring this back, the canon page defines tertiary canon as, "The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material."

That doesn't apply to the translator notes because, 1. they're not an adaption. 2. they're included with the primary canon



And it's copyrighted by Naoko Takeuchi, meaning she owns it. Not the translator or the publishing company.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And also, this is actually huge, authors don't typically own translations. Translations are considered derivative work, and usually the translator or publishing company retains copyright. The author's tend to have strict usage guidelines and what not, but owning the actual translation is not default.

So yeah, you can't claim its tertiary. Naoko legally owns those translation notes. It's secondary canon like a guidebook.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And it's copyrighted by Naoko Takeuchi, meaning she owns it. Not the translator or the publishing company.

I think this particular case should warrant a staff thread imo. What happens when a translation is directly confirmed as being copyrighted by the og creator of the work.

What do you think? @Armorchompy

 

[Armorchompy]

Isn't that just always the case?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Isn't that just always the case?

Wouldn't normally the copyright for the translation be for the distributor?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Isn't that just always the case?

Nope. Translations are considered derivative works, and the copyright would normally go to the translator or publishing company (if the publishing company were the ones translating).

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think this particular case should warrant a staff thread imo. What happens when a translation is directly confirmed as being copyrighted by the og creator of the work.

That's pretty normal. You see Naoko Takeuchi is still the IP owner of that work, meaning an authorized translation is still under her IP and therefore copyright. For example, the official Spanish translation for Game of Thrones has this exact same thing (don't ask why I have this):


While not Japanese copyright, to quote the US legal example of this:

According to the Copyright Act, copyright subsists in all original work of authorship that is fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Originality means that the work was not copied from some-one else and possesses at least a small amount of creativity.

Therefore the question arises as to whether the work of translators meets the requirements for copyright. The Copyright Act discusses the status of translations.

A translation is basically a derivative work. Only the copyright owner can authorize a translation that will be distributed. This includes works that are translated into another language and distributed in parts of the world where that language is spoken. Derivative works are infringing if they are not created with the permission of the copyright holder. Thus, a work of fiction or a best-selling biography cannot be translated into another language and distributed without the original author’s or copyright holder’s permission. If the author authorizes a translation, the author owns the copyright in the translation since the translation is a work for hire. This is because in case of a work for hire, the employing party is the author. In fact, it is not even necessary that the translator’s name be revealed in the work.

It's why Viz Media doesn't have the copyright to say, One Piece, despite translating it. Oda authorized the translation of his work in the US to Viz, who is then authorized to translate it and sell it to get a percentage of the profits, but because it is a derivative work, Oda owns the copyright to those translations. It's why theoretically if Oda were to sell those rights to like, Dark Horse, Viz would not be able to legally sell English translations of One Piece anymore.

So her owning the translation does not mean that she translated it herself or that the translation is correct, it's just legally all derivative works (that are official) are held by her under copyright law. The only time the disruptor owns the copyright is in a case like Warner Brothers with Harry Potter, who owns the visual media for that series but not the literary media for that series.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So her owning the translation does not mean that she translated it herself or that the translation is correct, it's just legally all derivative works (that are official) are held by her under copyright law. The only time the disruptor owns the copyright is in a case like Warner Brothers with Harry Potter, who owns the visual media for that series but not the literary media for that series.

This isn't true. Naoko's earlier english and spanish translations are not owned by her. But these latest ones are.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This isn't true. Naoko's earlier english and spanish translations are not owned by her. But these latest ones are.

No, she owns them. That's how copyright law works. She owns her derivative works, including the translations.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, she owns them. That's how copyright law works. She owns her derivative works, including the translations.

I will post the actual evidence.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, she owns them. That's how copyright law works. She owns her derivative works, including the translations.

Here is evidence. These earlier translations are not owned by Naoko. They're copyrighted by a different company.

Edit: one of the pages were duplicated. but added a third example.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It's why Viz Media doesn't have the copyright to say, One Piece, despite translating it. Oda authorized the translation of his work in the US to Viz, who is then authorized to translate it and sell it to get a percentage of the profits, but because it is a derivative work, Oda owns the copyright to those translations. It's why theoretically if Oda were to sell those rights to like, Dark Horse, Viz would not be able to legally sell English translations of One Piece anymore.

To use your example as an example, Shuiesha owns part of One Piece.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

correction. One piece isn't partly owned by Shueisha, but this romance dawn version is.