Shouldn't Starlight Glimmer besting Twilight sparkle be considered an outlier?

[Lunacorva]

By the rules put in place by the setting's lore, it makes absolutely zero sense that a unicorn who FAILED to qualify to get into magic school (Suggesting below average magical ability), would be able to contend with somepony who was one of the most powerful magic users in the world even BEFORE becoming an Alicorn (With all the power boost that entails).

Basically, we're expected to believe that a Unicorn already far less talented than Twilight by the setting's own statement, was able to close the MASSIVE power-gap between even a powerful Unicorn and an Alicorn?

This seems to be almost a reverse case of PIS. Except rather than making one character conveniantly WEAKER for the sake of the plot, it made one conveniantly STRONGER.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Talent and power are not the same thing.

 

[Reppuzan]

There are numerous characters who were far less talented than their talented peers and beat them through sheer training and experience.

Ikki Kurogane is a good example, as is Sairaorg Bael, who were literally declared failures before rising to the tops of their classes.

 

[Lunacorva]

Except that in the Pony universe, the two are intertwined, as magical aptitude is always shown via great feats of magical power.

Plus, Vs Battles has always treated the two as the same thing anyway, Such as a character creating a pocket universe (A sign of magical TALENT), being treated as a sign that they have Universal Tier Attack Potency (A sign of magical POWER)

And that aside, even if we ignore that, Twilight was still one of the most TALENTED Unicorns in the world even before becoming an Alicorn.

So again, we're expected to believe that an untalented Unicorn just happened to have the raw power to best an EXTREMELY talented Alicorn, despite the enormous power gap that this very wiki has shown between them (Ordinary ponies are Multi City Block tier, Alicorns are Large Star tier). Despite this being something that no other pony has ever been able to do without some other powersource?

This is Batman punched out The Spectre levels of ludicrous.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Having a natural talent for something doesn't mean you'll always be the best at it.

 

[Reppuzan]

Talent =/= power.

There's a difference between having the potential to do something and actually having the ability to do something.

Everyone has the potential to learn any number of languages, but that doesn't mean they will learn every language they come across.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

Furthermore, your example is flawed. Creating a universe is a sign of power since it takes more energy to create than it does to destroy.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irDj4fXkjvk&t=2m33s

 

[The_Everlasting]

"This is Batman punched out The Spectre levels of ludicrous."

The exaggeration is so bad I don't even know where to begin...

 

[Lunacorva]

@Paulo.junior: Quotes from characters have been ignored before as PIS.

(Example: Sephiroth being considered Tier 4, even though he says he needs a device to destroy the planet. Something that he should be able to do in seconds with his raw power alone.)

And even if we take that quote at face value, then we must take the episode at face value too, correct?

Well in that episode, Starlight displayed a great deal of magical talent. So logically, that must mean the deficiency was in her magical power.

So we're back to square one.

 

[Lunacorva]

Talent =/= power.
There's a difference between having the potential to do something and actually having the ability to do something.

Everyone has the potential to learn any number of languages, but that doesn't mean they will learn every language they come across.

I was saying that they're treated as the same thing in the Ponyverse ("Only the most powerful unicorns can do [INSERT SPELL HERE].")

Or to be specific:

To get into the Unicorn Magic school, you need to perform a feat of magical power. Since Starlight failed to qualify, that says her power was lacking.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Sephiroth has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Magical talent is completely irrelevant here if she obviously shows the ability to match Twilight.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Since Starlight failed to qualify, that says her power was lacking."

No, it just says she developed her magical abilities later in life. Late bloomers are a thing (Granted, they refer to something entirely different IRL, but the point still stands).

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

Feats > Statements

If one's feats greatly exceed statements of power, then we'll generally take the former.

Hence we keep Final Fantasy VII at Tier 4 due to numerous attacks being able to destroy planets and celestial objects as an aftereffect rather than as an intent.

Author intent only goes so far here and I've dealt with this topic before with you.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Deficiency in power? What are you talking about?

 

[Lunacorva]

...Did you not read my first post?

 

[The_Everlasting]

You're bringing in several unstated variables that ultimately mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Yeah, and I still don't get what you're talking about, what do you mean by "magic school", did I miss an episode?

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Paulo

He's probably referring to how Sunburst was the only one to get into magic school when the two of them were foals.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

He's probably referring to how Sunburst was the only one to get into magic school when the two of them were foals.

Then it makes even less sense, mainly because the profile crealy states that her Star Level AP was "Season 5 Finale onward", not when she was a filly.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Luna

I did. I don't know anything about MLP, but "talent" is only one indicator of power. If we based characters on the "talent" they had when they were younger or being tested, then characters like Sanji, Obito Uchiha, and Issei Hyoudou would be at the bottom of the tier list rankings.

You're bringing in statements and variables that have nothing to do with showings.

 

[Lunacorva]

He's probably referring to how Sunburst was the only one to get into magic school when the two of them were foals.

Then it makes even less sense, mainly because the profile crealy states that he Star Level AP was "Season 5 Finale onward".

So, you're saying that she must have closed the gap between childhood and the Season 5 finale?


Okay, let's follow that train of logic.


Let's say that Twilight and Starlight start at Level 1 as Filly's.


Now, Twilight gets into magic school, and Starlight fails to. So Twilight effectively jumps a level ahead of Starlight.

Now, let's say that Starlight trains really hard (Except she wouldn't, since her fear of uniqueness meant she spent all her time SUPRESSING her ability, not honing it) and ends up being equal to Twilight, one of the most powerful and talented unicorns on all of Equestria at, let's call it, Level 73 (Which is already ridiculous, since it's the equivalent of the scrawny kid who never got picked for his Grade School sports team and then went on to live a sedentry lifestyle and study in IT being the physical equal of Brock Lesnar).

One year, Twilight becomes an Alicorn and SKYROCKETS to Level 1,951,477 (Number calculated by multiplying 73 by the difference in power between Island Level AP (Twilight's unicorn form) and Star Level AP (Twilight's Alicorn form).

We're expected to believe that in less than a year, Starlight manages to improve her power over 20,000 times that which she ever achieved in her entire life?

Again. This is "Batman punched out The Spectre, so Batman must be Universal Tier!" levels of ridiculous.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Making a lot of assumptions that were never mentioned in the show, aren't we?

 

[Lunacorva]

Making a lot of assumptions that were never mentioned in the show, aren't we?

Such as? At what point have I made any kind of assumption? I'm using the show's own logic.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I don't recal the show mentioning "level 1", "level 73" or anything like that, but if you say that's the show's own logic, ok, I guess.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

You're picking arbitrary numbers in an attempt to support your logic.

There are characters who have gotten ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time, namely every shonen hero ever.

If she was suppressing her power because she didn't want to show it, then that only lends further credence to the power she's capable of.

 

[Lunacorva]

I don't recal the show mentioning "level 1", "level 73" or anything like that, but if you say that's the show's own logic, ok, I guess.

You are missing the point.

Those numbers are arbitrary and meant solely as examples to illustrate the fact that not only did Twilight have a head start on Starlight to begin with, but also the sheer gap between Twilight as a Unicorn and Twilight as an Alicorn, and the ridiculousness of Starlight being able to make up that difference in under a years time. You're focusing on the wrong things.

I could have used 2, 4, 12, 26, or 912 as my example numbers and my point would be the same. The only number that's actually important is the 20,000+, because by this Wiki's own statement, Twilight is literally over 20,000 times stronger as an Alicorn than she was as a Unicorn (Star Level AP being over 20,000 times stronger than Island Level AP)

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with The Everlasting and Reppuzan. Perhaps we should close this thread?

 

[Golden_Void]

Everlasting's first comment pretty much sums up this post.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

 

[Lunacorva]

Except that I already countered BOTH those points and added new ones that continue to make Starlight overpowering Twilight totally illogical.

 

[Lunacorva]

@Lunacorva
You're picking arbitrary numbers in an attempt to support your logic.

There are characters who have gotten ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time, namely every shonen hero ever.

If she was suppressing her power because she didn't want to show it, then that only lends further credence to the power she's capable of.

Again. You are missing the point, but apparently I need to spell it out for you.

Starlight. was below Twilight's level right from the start.

She did nothing to hone her abilities, meaning she would NOT have gotten stronger. So her even matching Twilight as a UNICORN is ludicrous even WITHOUT the huge powergap.

Second, this is NOT a shonen anime, you cannot arbitrarily apply the tropes of one genre to the tropes of another just to suit your narrative.

Third, even if this WAS a shonen, shonen's have valid REASONS for the power boosts. This does not.

Fourth: This "Power boast" violates everything established by the series lore.

Fifth: If she was "Always as powerful as an Alicorn", she wouldn't have failed her entrance examine in the first place, since that exam MEASURES POWER.

 

[Lunacorva]

"This is Batman punched out The Spectre levels of ludicrous."
The exaggeration is so bad I don't even know where to begin...

No, it really is that bad.

A BELOW AVERAGE member of a race that has consistently shown to be Island level at best and Multi-City Block level on average is suddenly able to go toe to toe with a Star Level entity with NO explanation whatsoever, despite this going against everything the series has established about the powerscale thus far.


And the ONLY reason it's treated as valid canon is because "It happened"

Well, Black Panther beating the Silver Suffer happened. Better upgrade Black Panther's profile. Who cares how little sense that makes.

Batman punching out The Spectre happened. Guess he's now Universal Tier.

 

[Lunacorva]

And what's baffling me is how obtuse you're all being about this.

You have all used the exact same logic that I am using to have a feat declared an outlier (Just look at the outlier page itself). Why is there such a sudden resistance here?

 

[Lunacorva]

Oh I get it. I've seen this happen before.

I make a statement.

Everyone makes argument A.

I debunk argument A.

Everyone makes argument B.

I debunk argument B.

They go right back to Argument A, conveniantly forgetting that I already debunked it.

So, I'm going to input my entire case here:

By the rules put in place by the setting's lore, it makes absolutely zero sense that a unicorn who FAILED to qualify to get into magic school (A scholl that tests the students power, suggesting that she had below average magical ability), would be able to contend with somepony who was one of the most powerful magic users in the world even BEFORE becoming an Alicorn (With all the power boost that entails).


Basically, we're expected to believe that a Unicorn already far less powerful than Twilight by the setting's own statement, was able to close the MASSIVE power-gap between even a powerful Unicorn and an Alicorn?

To use an example:

Let's say that Twilight and Starlight start at Level 1 as Filly's.


Now, Twilight gets into magic school, and Starlight fails to. So Twilight effectively jumps a level ahead of Starlight.

Now, let's say that Starlight trains really hard (Except she wouldn't, since her fear of uniqueness meant she spent all her time SUPRESSING her ability, not honing it) and ends up being equal to Twilight, one of the most powerful and talented unicorns on all of Equestria at, let's call it, Level 73 (Which is already ridiculous, since it's the equivalent of the scrawny kid who never got picked for his Grade School sports team and then went on to live a sedentry lifestyle and study in IT being the physical equal of Brock Lesnar).

One year, Twilight becomes an Alicorn and SKYROCKETS to Level 1,951,477 (Number calculated by multiplying 73 by the difference in power between Island Level AP (Twilight's unicorn form) and Star Level AP (Twilight's Alicorn form).

We're expected to believe that in less than a year, Starlight manages to improve her power over 20,000 times that which she ever achieved in her entire life?

Those numbers are arbitrary and meant solely as examples to illustrate the fact that not only did Twilight have a head start on Starlight to begin with, but also the sheer gap between Twilight as a Unicorn and Twilight as an Alicorn, and the ridiculousness of Starlight being able to make up that difference in under a years time. You're focusing on the wrong things.

I could have used 2, 4, 12, 26, or 912 as my example numbers and my point would be the same. The only number that's actually important is the 20,000+, because by this Wiki's own statement, Twilight is literally over 20,000 times stronger as an Alicorn than she was as a Unicorn (Star Level AP being over 20,000 times stronger than Island Level AP)

Now, you could say "Well in Shonen, sudden powerboasts happen all the time!"

But this is NOT a shonen anime, you cannot arbitrarily apply the tropes of one genre to the tropes of another just to suit your narrative. Even if this WAS a shonen, shonen's have valid REASONS for the power boosts (Training, power ups, magical items, ect). This does not. In fact, this "Power boast" violates everything established by the series lore.

Even if you suggest "Well then she had that power all along", then she wouldn't have failed the magic test as a child, which TESTS MAGICAL POWER.

Well, maybe she got stronger as an adult?

She couldn't have. As I said before, the show made it clear she REPRESSED her ability.

And the thing is, this very wiki has used this kind of logic to declare these kinds of feats outliers before. This is a BELOW AVERAGE member of a race that has consistently shown to be Island level at best and Multi-City Block level on average is suddenly able to go toe to toe with a Star Level entity with NO explanation whatsoever, despite this going against everything the series has established about the powerscale thus far.

And the ONLY reason it's treated as valid canon is because "It happened"

Well, Black Panther beating the Silver Suffer happened. Better upgrade Black Panther's profile. Who cares how little sense that makes.

Batman punching out The Spectre happened. Guess he's now Universal Tier.

But we DON'T consider either of those canon. They are outliers. Because we used logic to determine that they made zero sense within the established rules of the setting.

So why is this feat getting a pass?

 

[Peter1129]

Seriously do you just hate Starlight Glimmer like those haters or something? This isn't the first time she showed power equal to that of Twilight or saying she has talent. Also it was never confirmed whether or not she even tried to go to magic school. She could've spent the rest of her fillyhood trying to create the equality spell or learning magic. Plus look at Sunburst he isn't magically gifted more like magically smart about everything and he still got into the school. Also nothing says that Starlight is below average in anyway. In fact in every flashback it's shown that she is above average by learning a spell once after reading it in a book

 

[Lunacorva]

Seriously do you just hate Starlight Glimmer like those haters or something? This isn't the first time she showed power equal to that of Twilight or saying she has talent. Also it was never confirmed whether or not she even tried to go to magic school. She could've spent the rest of her fillyhood trying to create the equality spell or learning magic. Plus look at Sunburst he isn't magically gifted more like magically smart about everything and he still got into the school. Also nothing says that Starlight is below average in anyway. In fact in every flashback it's shown that she is above average by learning a spell once after reading it in a book

Please do not assume my personal feelings.

I don't hate Starlight.

I never once said I hate Starlight.

Do I feel that Starlight is massively overpowere? Absolutely. But one's powerscale is NOT a reflection of their quality as a character.

For instance, Sherlock is my favourite character. But he'd be WOEFULLY outclassed in VS Battles.

And while you do make good points, that still only adresses the Below Average thing. I'll concede I was wrong about that.

But Twilight was WELL above average for a Unicorn, practically a magical prodigy. And even she was miles below the level of an Alicorn.

The gap has been closed with ZERO explanation, and all that's been provided have been "fan theories"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And yet Twilight herself stated that Starlight's power and talent rivaled that of her own as an Alicorn...

 

[Peter1129]

Starlight also made a statement in Season 7 Premiere saying that magic is basically tied to her emotions. At the time between season 5 premiere and season 5 finale she was incredibly angry at Twilight for ruining her paradise like how Goku Black used his anger against the mortals to create a space-time scythe that powered him up to the point where the producer or somebody else directly stated that he has became the strongest non God character in all of Dragon Ball. That's like at minimum a 4-5 times power up since he went from being stomped by post training Vegeta to taking on both Vegeta and Goku at the same time casually. So she could've used her anger and gotten that much stronger in between those time on top of being a prodigy due to Twilight's statement about being talented in the season 5 finale and her own statement in Season 6 episode 21 Every Little Thing She Does about being a prodigy. On top of the fact she created a never seen before equality spell and mastered Starswirls time travel spell.

 

[Antvasima]

I am inclined to agree with WeeklyBattles. Starlight being even more magically talented than Twilight was a major plot point, and she has repeatedly been treated as a genius.