Shinza Banshou - Revising the Tiering

[Tyri456]

Giving the wiki adopted a new tiering system, the criteria as well changed, therefore I think now it's time to address the feats and give them a tiering.
And for the record, I'll basically only use the official translation to tier them.

This thread will focus about the cosmology, therefore the ratings for the gods as well.

So let's start:

1. There are an infinite numbers of concepts, therefore any concepts that could ever exits.
2. No matter how many concepts, no matter how simple or COMPLEX, they are governed by laws.

Now, when 2 gods (reaching the level of Atziluth) clash, they can open a hole in the Singularity, deeper the Singularity there is the Throne.

1. The Singularity is a place where there are no laws or concepts, so therefore as we saw before, it exists beyond infinite concepts no matter how simple or complex, its color-less because devoid of concepts.
2. As matter of facts, only Gods who have reached emanations can enter inside it.
3. The throne transcend ALL and everything that exits, so it transcend infinite concepts as well, and Gods themself are of course stated to also exists beyond the very concepts themself and laws, they are above the very concepts, which are infinite no matter how simple or complex, such as concept of Space and Time, Dimensions or coordinates and many other infinite concepts are meaningless to gods.
4. Of course the Gods, which exist on the same plane of existence of the Singularity and the Throne, can even affects those, such as making shaking the Throne itself.
5. Gods are the ultimate, so the highest form of Transcendence, they see the creation as a canvas where they draw as a picture with their laws.
6. If not enough, Taikyoku (Atziluth mentioned before) is stated to be the origin and root of all things.

And that should be enough, of course there is more, such as that Gods actually get stronger than the baseline level, and so on, but this is actually a thread to tier the baseline level cosmology and Gods.

As such, given I proved the level of existence of the singularity, being devoid of any concepts, an infinite number of concepts and laws no matter how simple or complex, being devoid of the very space and time, and the Throne transcending everything and all in existence, Gods being superior and being the ultimate and highest form of Transcendence, this should qualify for: 1A Outerverse level, given their qualitative superiority to concepts of space time dimensions and existence itself.

 

[ROZAN-TIMSINA0]

you cooked, agree

 

[ROZAN-TIMSINA0]

Giving the wiki adopted a new tiering system, the criteria as well changed, therefore I think now it's time to address the feats and give them a tiering.
And for the record, I'll basically only use the official translation to tier them.

This thread will focus about the cosmology, therefore the ratings for the gods as well.

So let's start:

1. There are an infinite numbers of concepts, therefore any concepts that could ever exits.
2. No matter how many concepts, no matter how simple or COMPLEX, they are governed by laws.

Now, when 2 gods (reaching the level of Atziluth) clash, they can open a hole in the Singularity, deeper the Singularity there is the Throne.

1. The Singularity is a place where there are no laws or concepts, so therefore as we saw before, it exists beyond infinite concepts no matter how simple or complex, its color-less because devoid of concepts.
2. As matter of facts, only Gods who have reached emanations can enter inside it.
3. The throne transcend ALL and everything that exits, so it transcend infinite concepts as well, and Gods themself are of course stated to also exists beyond the very concepts themself and laws, they are above the very concepts, which are infinite no matter how simple or complex, such as concept of Space and Time, Dimensions or coordinates and many other infinite concepts are meaningless to gods.
4. Of course the Gods, which exist on the same plane of existence of the Singularity and the Throne, can even affects those, such as making shaking the Throne itself.
5. Gods are the ultimate, so the highest form of Transcendence, they see the creation as a canvas where they draw as a picture with their laws.
6. If not enough, Taikyoku (Atziluth mentioned before) is stated to be the origin and root of all things.

And that should be enough, of course there is more, such as that Gods actually get stronger than the baseline level, and so on, but this is actually a thread to tier the baseline level cosmology and Gods.

As such, given I proved the level of existence of the singularity, being devoid of any concepts, an infinite number of concepts and laws no matter how simple or complex, being devoid of the very space and time, and the Throne transcending everything and all in existence, Gods being superior and being the ultimate and highest form of Transcendence, this should qualify for: 1A Outerverse level, given their qualitative superiority to concepts of space time dimensions and existence itself.

also, you forgot to include tags in the post

 

[Wankbreaker]

isn’t it a little too early for this kind of things? we at least need profiles, or a draft

 

[Legacy30]

The official translation of Dies Irae takes a lot of liberties. Putting aside scans from Kajiri Kamui Kagura, I'm going to provide the raws for some of the Dies Irae scans and they paint some subtle and some very different pictures.

1. There are an infinite numbers of concepts, therefore any concepts that could ever exits.
2. No matter how many concepts, no matter how simple or COMPLEX, they are governed by laws.

　蛇は、永劫狂し続けているのである。透徹した思慮と極限を億も超えた知識の果てに、辿り着いたのは愚の境地。
　ただ流れ出すのみの影となり、宇宙を覆いつくした妄執こそ総てなのだ。理性など遥か昔に失って、今や残っているのは一つしかない。

　〈脳髄〉《しきかん》の許可が下りる。本来、そんな一言に意味はない。
　心臓は不随意筋なのだから、この世界が在る限り脳の下知など必要としていないのだ。
　止めよと言ったところで動き出し、やれと言ったところで条件が揃わなければ動かない。
　そういうもので、そういう歯車。動くか否かは、あくまで動力を構成している法則上の決まりである。

　ゆえにこれは、脳の独り言に等しいもの。
　己の意志で制御できない部分に向けて、何を言おうと滑稽に響くだけだろう。
　だが、しかし本当にそうなのか？

「悪くないぞ。忠道、大儀だ」

　原理が単純であろうと複雑であろうと、そこには必ず一定の法則が存在する。心臓は不随意筋だが、その仕組みを構築した者から見れば結果が不本意であることなど有り得ない。

　ある条件下で動くよう、創られた歯車ならば、その理に則る限りソレの意志は彼の意志。
　であれば、脳の昂揚はプラシーボとなって心臓にも届く。
　彼がやれと命令すれば、ソレは絶対の精度をもって己が仕事を全うするのだ。

The most obvious here is that there is no mention of concept (概念). The Throne God determines the laws and concepts of the world they rule due to their craving, thus having infinite kinds of concepts isn't possible when the concept of an afterlife doesn't exist in Mercurius' world which gets mentioned plentifully in the visual novel.

3. The throne transcend ALL and everything that exits, so it transcend infinite concepts as well, and Gods themself are of course stated to also exists beyond the very concepts themself and laws, they are above the very concepts, which are infinite no matter how simple or complex, such as concept of Space and Time, Dimensions or coordinates and many other infinite concepts are meaningless to gods.

「この世界はそういう作りになっている。そして繰り返してきたのだ。幾度も、彼方より、果てもなく。　流出へ至った絶対者による世界法則の塗り替え。その行いを繰り返すことによりこの世界は成り立っている。それはおまえがよく知る今の世界も変わらない。唯一にして絶対の法だ。　別段珍しいことでもない。無二の強者がこの世の有様を決定付け、百の輩はそれに平伏して従うのみ。極々自然な話だろう」

「だから、代替わり……」

　一人の超越者が、後世総てに対する外枠を生みだす。
　絶対で圧倒的な行いだ。心から望んだ渇望であるために、容赦なく平等に総てを塗りつぶすに違いない。
　抵抗など無意味。誰もが新たな絶対者の道理に頭を垂れることとなる。

　忌まわしい娘。呪われた娘。哀れな娘。罰当たりな娘。
　彼女を憎み、彼女を愛せ。彼女を護り、彼女を壊せ。
　彼女は世界の特異点。摂理の〈埒外〉《らちがい》に身を置く存在。
　死者であって、死者ではない。この世の概念から外れている者。

　疑問や困惑、違和感よりも、ただ目の前の景色に心を奪われ、魅せられる。
　なぜならこういう、ノスタルジックな雰囲気は嫌いじゃない。いや、正確に言うとこの停滞感を気に入ってるのか。
　落陽がもたらす一瞬の美景を内包したまま、切り離されて止まった世界。ここに時間の流れは存在してない。
　ただ、いつまでも続く黄昏。永遠に落ちない太陽。それは昼でも夜でもない境界の、些細なことで崩れそうな現実の中の非現実。

　凝縮した刹那……それが俺には心地よく、ある種の安らぎを感じさせる。
　そのまま砂浜に腰を降ろし、何をするでもなく波の音を聴いていた。

城の名はヴェヴェルスブルグ。

ＳＳ長官、ヒムラーの野郎が購入した古城で、もとはお偉いさんたちが趣味で使ってるチンケなオカルトクラブの社交場だったらしい。

ゆえにもちろん、俺たちはそんなもんに加わってねえ。だがハイドリヒ卿とメルクリウスは例外で、当時からいたんだよ。

そして、完全に乗っ取った。本物の神秘と本物の魔道。ファッションじゃねえ真なる超常を体現し、黒円卓を創りあげた。

それがどういうことだが分かるかい？　もはやこのとき、城は〈普通〉《うつつ》のもんじゃなくなってたっつう意味だよ。

俺がパーダーボルンに居たのは、かつてのヴェヴェルスブルグが近所にあったからなんだが、実際のところ関係ねえ。

世界法則から切り離された空間は距離と座標の概念を破壊する。つまり資格のない奴は百年頑張っても入るどころか近づくことさえ出来ねえし、逆に招かれれば世界中の何処からだろうと入れるんだ。

実際に試した奴はいないがよ、まず間違いないことだと俺は思うぜ。そう確信できるほど、あれは度外れた代物だった。

なぜなら、前にも言っただろ。この現実に別の世界を創りあげるということが、何を意味しているのかな。

そうだよ、城はハイドリヒ卿の創造だった。そしてこれも前に言ったが、創造を維持できる時間は長くねえ。

外への干渉規模が少ない求道型でも、せいぜい数時間が限度だろう。覇道型に至っては、数分から数十分。燃費が良いと言った薔薇の夜にしたところで、この枠から大きく外れているわけじゃない。

それほどまでに創造の維持は難しいんだ。一個人による渇望で世界なんてものを捻じ曲げるのが、どれだけ難儀なことかは分かるだろ？

ゆえにハイドリヒ卿の城は格が違った。紛れもない覇道の創造でありながら、この時点で二ヶ月近く存在していたんだよ。しかも、一向に薄れる兆候が見えやしねえ。

それが具体的に何を意味しているかは当時まだ分からなかったが、俺たちの中であの人が絶大なものだったという事実の説明には充分だろう。

These are saying that the Throne and the gods are called transcendent beings but it doesn't mention they transcend everything. They can exist "outside" of the concepts belonging to the world, but not to a degree of transcending them, at least limited to information from Dies Irae. And for the scan with the sunset that says the concept of time is meaningless, it actually says there is no flow of time in that place since it's a singularity outside of the world while again having no mention of concept (概念).

 

[Ovy7]

This needs to be added to the queue.

 

[PrinceofPein]

No, this needs to be closed and forgotten.
We have our threads ready but the profiles are not yet fully done. Which is why we are still waiting, i do not know who this person is and I am sceptical of new people who suddenly claim they are knowledgeable in shinza. And this thread does not even cover 10% of what the cosmology is or touch the cosmology of each heaven, it was hastily made and looks like it was clumped together by scans found online. And based on the agreement, Raws must always be provided.
In conclusion, someone who has been on this wiki but never said anything about shinza, making a thread about it, sounds like a fan who just read DI and some online threads and thinks they are knowledgeable on shinza. Secondly, this thread is hastily made and empty.

Someone should close this and leave this closed, the real thread is coming when we are done verifying all the profiles. That is the thread that needs to be added to the queue not this one.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

1. There are an infinite numbers of concepts, therefore any concepts that could ever exits.

OG Japanese doesn't talk about infinite concepts. Just that Merc went nuts cuz of the loops. Legacy is right that it doesn't talk on that. The OG just talks on Merc's loops going all over the place and he lost his self in a sense cuz of the tedium.

There are nigh infinite laws but that's a KKK thing.

2. As matter of facts, only Gods who have reached emanations can enter inside it.

I mean this doesn't truly matter.

3. The throne transcend ALL and everything that exits, so it transcend infinite concepts as well, and Gods themself are of course stated to also exists beyond the very concepts themself and laws, they are above the very concepts, which are infinite no matter how simple or complex, such as concept of Space and Time, Dimensions or coordinates and many other infinite concepts are meaningless to gods.
4. Of course the Gods, which exist on the same plane of existence of the Singularity and the Throne, can even affects those, such as making shaking the Throne itself.
5. Gods are the ultimate, so the highest form of Transcendence, they see the creation as a canvas where they draw as a picture with their laws.
6. If not enough, Taikyoku (Atziluth mentioned before) is stated to be the origin and root of all things.

Honestly the issue is the scans and how not all are helpful with the real helpful ones being akuro's higher dimensional defense and such. Though its not great that only parts of the scans are translated since well...could add more context and such.

This needs to be added to the queue.

Honestly there is still aditya even and who knows what could be added unfortunately its going hiatus x hiatus ngl

 

[Wankbreaker]

OG Japanese doesn't talk about infinite concepts. Just that Merc went nuts cuz of the loops. Legacy is right that it doesn't talk on that. The OG just talks on Merc's loops going all over the place and he lost his self in a sense cuz of the tedium.

There are nigh infinite laws but that's a KKK thing.


I mean this doesn't truly matter.


Honestly the issue is the scans and how not all are helpful with the real helpful ones being akuro's higher dimensional defense and such. Though its not great that only parts of the scans are translated since well...could add more context and such.


Honestly there is still aditya even and who knows what could be added unfortunately its going hiatus x hiatus ngl

Avesta VN is coming next month, will probably expand on a lot

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Avesta VN is coming next month, will probably expand on a lot

I mean its only part 1 so far plus how many changes is unclear. Maybe there will be a glossary but who knows. I ain't made of money.

 

[Achmad76c]

Following

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Sn.

Gatekeeping is strong with this one

 

[Tarang123]

The most obvious here is that there is no mention of concept (概念). The Throne God determines the laws and concepts of the world they rule due to their craving, thus having infinite kinds of concepts isn't possible when the concept of an afterlife doesn't exist in Mercurius' world which gets mentioned plentifully in the visual novel.

Does it have to say the word concept if it uses something that denotes the exact same idea? This seems like a nitpick pretending to be something more

The first one is an obvious mistranslation (or just an alternate translation of the original text), but the second one is accurate enough to the idea that it really doesn't matter that much

 

[Tarang123]

These are saying that the Throne and the gods are called transcendent beings but it doesn't mention they transcend everything. They can exist "outside" of the concepts belonging to the world, but not to a degree of transcending them, at least limited to information from Dies Irae. And for the scan with the sunset that says the concept of time is meaningless, it actually says there is no flow of time in that place since it's a singularity outside of the world while again having no mention of concept (概念).

Uh no it's definitely stated that they transcend everything. The Throne is stated to basically be the pinnacle of everything, and something hyperdimensional, so the idea that it doesn't transcend everything below it is kinda silly. Again, i feel like basing all our info off the slightest translation changes is kind of insane. You need to go by context and with the context provided along with literally anything else we know about the Shinza universe, it's very obvious that they're meant to transcend the world below them, with the numerous analogies made about the world being a canvas or a piece of paper to them or the universe being the picture for the gods and allat.

There's simply no actual argument that can be made against this notion.

And yes, I think the context in which the word 'principle' (or whatever the kanji actually means) would still indicate it referring to concepts

 

[Tarang123]

Honestly there is still aditya even and who knows what could be added unfortunately its going hiatus x hiatus ngl

Sad. Haven't really caught up to Aditya, but that's unfortunate, though good on Masada for being honest with himself ig. Hopefully he comes back to it at some point.

 

[LamentSatanael]

Guess this can be closed then?

 

[Violatas]

Avesta VN is coming next month, will probably expand on a lot

Next month? Didn't know

Will the English version also be released?