- 4,503
- 2,221
So, I can already tell that this is going to be extremely controversial, but I'll try keeping this extremely simple.
I do believe that what downgraded them had some really strong points, but was based on a general misconception on what even put the gods at 1A in the first place.
The whole premise of 1A Gods was based on the notion that they were transcendent of all of Creation and were inaccessibly above it no matter how many qualitative layers/dimensions are stacked. It remained as nothing more than a canvas for them to paint over with their laws and whatnot.
The downgrade provided a...different perspective on 1A.
-1-A dimensions are a thing.
Except that 1-A for Shinza is based on the fact that they are supposed to be above every single extension of said dimensions. Obviously you can't both get a rating for not being touched by water when you get it splashed to your face several time in a week.
Another point of the opposition related to the whole stuff is that some points are based on 1-A being a given (mainly Yakou barriers somehow being 1-A because it "blocked a 1-A being"), which is a backward logic.
For these reasons, the person on this side think that 1-A should say
To be fair to Yuri, he's not exactly wrong. I agree that arguing that the barriers being 1A due to blocking a "1A" being is pretty weird and backward...
However, the line I'm talking about is the notion that 1A Shinza was based on gods being beyond any extension of dimensionality. If that was true, then Shinza would have never been 1A after the revision. Paradise Lost would have bitchslapped the verse to higher-dimensional a long time ago.
What got them to 1A was the gods being beyond the canvas, regardless of how many qualitative dimensions/layers were stacked/added. That was 1A Shinza, not being beyond any extent of dimensionality.
However, there were a few issues I had with the arguments made by Yuri (albeit, they were pretty good)
Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.
Now, I know that this isn't really an argument made by Yuri, but that's not at all what the post says. You could probably get away with using that kind of explanation for the difference between colorless Taiji and colored Taiji (albeit, it's kinda wrong), but this isn't how Taikyoku works in relation to the rest of the physical laws or phenomenon.
It's explicitly stated that the difference between Taikyoku and the physical law/phenomenon is due to the massive scale and "density" of Taikyoku. The whole warping all of Creation thing is just more things to show just how big this scale actually is.
Seeing as I'm extremely lazy and whatnot, I'll do what Yuri did and just post the entire scene cause...why not?
Here it is, the time stamp should be the same as the one that Yuri set, so...ye
First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.
So, he's kinda right, tbf. I do have to point out that it was never actually stated in the revisions that there was a transcendence factor (albeit, you could just apply the Throne being Hyperdimensional to that, anyway)
However, the weird thing is that no evidence was offered here. In fact, the logic here is basically: "Cause no evidence is shown, the claim can be completely discarded", which works for debates, but not in a revision thread. In fact, whenever someone offered evidence the counter was the same: "it's definitely not evidence for a transcendence factor", which is kind of true, but not exactly the best counter... at all.
Again, I'm lazy, so I'll just post the group of scans that @Infera28 used to go against the downgrade.
Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence.
There's also a bunch of other things in K3 that calls the gods transcendents, the Throne transcending everything, Gods even being called truly transcendental beings, etc.
My point is that there is a transcendence factor, which is where this statement even comes from, anyway.
Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).
I think that this was already talked about and whatnot, but...I think I already discussed this earlier, but attaining Atziluth does entail a transcendence factor, so this just seems to be some kind of headcanon (albeit, it does logically make sense). If I was to explain it, Briah would be a temporary level of hax, but because Atziluth is permanent, it would also upgrade their existences and whatnot (just my take on it, of course)
If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.
https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/
Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).
https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional
Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.
Obviously, I think it's a common consensus that Chō-Jigen > Ko Jigen (Higher dimensional). However, is that 1A? Definitely not (well, not without context). It would likely just refer to the peak of cosmology, which is consistent with how the Throne has been portrayed, anyway. Obviously, this isn't a bit part of the downgrade, the big part is next.
One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.
なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."
喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.
立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.
そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.
高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.
I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made(can see it because someone already said this before).
The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".
Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.
There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.
空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.
位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.
The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.
Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.
So, before I even go in on this, I'm just going to say that I'm a bit neutral on saying if it's actually quite literal cause there are a few reasons why it wouldn't exactly work. Again, this goes back to the misconception that was there in the downgrade, cause taking that into account this actually doesn't disprove 1A whatsoever. Now, I somewhat agree with Yuri with it not merely referring to their relation to each other, but the reason why it's a bit...off is for a few reasons:
1. Akuro didn't have his Taikyoku on when that statement was made
2. The "phase in physics" seems to be purely figurative language due to said "phase in physics" referring to where Yato actually was, which was the singularity (from what I remember, of course), which is beyond all of Creation including its laws.
3. It basically proves that Akuro's relation to Soujirou was like a picture to reality, anyway.
For number 1, the common defense I hear will likely be that Morei also didn't activate her Taikyoku against Madara (until later), but was still above him (which isn't really that true cause they were somewhat equal...somewhat). However, the problem is that Madara does have a tier 3 key (which makes literally no sense, but whatever). My point is that it's not very quantifiable. Even then, Akuro was fighting EE (the human fodders), while Morei was fighting Madara, who already has Taikyoku (albeit, he's basically fodder)
Now, for evidence that Akuro didn't have his Taikyoku on at that moment, I'll just post three vids (they're all on chronological order, so it should give a fairly good idea of what happened)
Here's where the Higher dimensional stuff was mentioned.
Here's the fight between Morei and Madara, which is following this.
Here's where they start using their Taikyoku together.
ye.
And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:
基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.
感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.
あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"
If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)
So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.
And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.
I'm a little confused why nobody talked about this at all. It was barely mentioned in the downgrade thread, anyway. The main point against this is that it's already implied in the series that Soujirou's distortion was already higher dimensional before he became a god. He just knew about it as a god. Taking that into account, what he used to cut the Tenma just seems to be his distortion amped by his Taikyoku.
It's basically implied here, but I'm fairly certain it's also implied in the series as well, but I need to find that scan again.
To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara
And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.
Morei's flames/Law instance
節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--
ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.
変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.
「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"
「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."
「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"
大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.
宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.
以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--
されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.
空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.
位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.
「――──」
"---"
驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.
「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."
Sukuna + Ootake instance
両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.
収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.
攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.
血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.
宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--
遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).
人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.
巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.
小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--
「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."
躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.
雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.
随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.
And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).
かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).
So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.
So, the first thing I want to point out is that the first example is a slightly incorrect translation (albeit, it literally means nothing). However, I think @Infera28 did a fairly good job at contesting this.
彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。
初伝 太極 2
Other thing to mention was that Yakou was capable of stacking "dimensions" and whatnot to his barriers, which you could use to actually further justify 1A cause their relation to reality never once changed, which does support something the FAQ says (I'll probably bring it up a little later)
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
This was the scan that I saw a lot of people using to contest this notion that the barriers are amped by Madara and whatnot.
Issue is that's not exactly what it says. It says that he can manipulate all things in nature/all physical phenomenon, but he's unable to rewrite the laws of the world. This is mainly because of his lack of a craving, which is why he doesn't have things like Morei's flames, Akuro's corrosion, Ootake's power of death, etc. (something the fight against Ootake definitely talked about. I'll pull up a quick scan)
The main difference between Madara and beings like Morei, Akuro, and Ootake is that he doesn't have a craving, a desire that he wants to achieve or affect the rest of the world with.
Basically, I think its a gross misinterpretation (obviously, I'm just playing with words here, so plz nobody get offended)
And I agree that the last example isn't the best thing either cause of what Yuri said.
Another thing to bring up is that Madara does try using the barriers on Ootake before, which Ootake oneshots. I saw some people claiming that it was just due to hax alone, which could work...if a weaker barrier hadn't effortlessly stopped Ootake's Kamunagara, which is literally described as "the universe with a shape" and whatnot. It, too, would have the same all destroying properties that Ootake himself has.
-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).
「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."
そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.
複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.
圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.
曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.
いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.
なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--
So, this one is a bit weird, but tbf we could just ignore this just seeing as everything else doesn't work, anyway. However, even going with this, the Mandala referred to here, if I'm not mistaken, is referring to all of Creation, which doesn't really downgrade anything cause this was common knowledge anyway. Only gods were able to fully manipulate and transcend Creation (unless you want to wank Methuselah, of course)
-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".
I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).
So, this one is a bit of a weird case, but the easiest way to counter this is to first just state that it being referred to as "temporal" is just referring to it being in, essentially, a time stop. Said time stop is likely there because of the complete disconnection that the realm has over reality, which is even conceptual in nature. I agree that it not having a concept of time flow doesn't really mean it doesn't have time...
-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.
First of all, I don't think that Paradise Lost should ever, and I mean, EVER be used in a downgrade like this (albeit it's just miscellaneous). The dimensions in Paradise Lost were extremely vague, and we know that they're outside and disconnected from the canvas, which is why a 1A rating was given to said dimensions in the first place. And besides, 1A dimensions are still possible. In fact, if Shinza was beyond any extension of dimensionality, they'd be High 1A, possibly higher, so...yeah (obviously, I've already said that because there are dimensions above the canvas and whatnot, they're not above every possible extension of dimensionality, so no High 1A)
The dimensional hole seems to be referring to this thing here:
覇道同士の激突によって特異点を発生させ、波旬の存在する超深奥の太極座まで全力で次元の孔を掘り進めていた。穢土が存続するということは、すなわち神州を基点にした空間の掘削。その行いは想像を絶するほどの長い時間、人知れず決戦を目指して行なわれていた。
Which, in it of itself, is fairly vague. In fact, given everything we know of the singularity, it seems to refer to a hole through dimensions rather than something actually bound by dimensionality. Even then, it wouldn't really disprove anything that well, either.
As well as that, the whole different dimensions thing seems to be a mistranslation as the actual translation, from what I got at least, seems to refer to it as a dimensional distance, rather than them actually being dimensions...
Now, as for tiering, I think they should be put back to 1A, but I don't have anything against them being something like Low 1A or even High 1B and whatnot.
Please, let this be a more...peaceful thread besides the other two threads
Now, the other thing is that I really do want to promote honesty on these threads, so I hope that people will not be putting fake scans, derailing, or even putting up fake pieces of text cause that's just unacceptable, and if that's what people have fallen to, then I do agree that the pages of the untranslated verses, such as K3, should be deleted.
I do believe that what downgraded them had some really strong points, but was based on a general misconception on what even put the gods at 1A in the first place.
The whole premise of 1A Gods was based on the notion that they were transcendent of all of Creation and were inaccessibly above it no matter how many qualitative layers/dimensions are stacked. It remained as nothing more than a canvas for them to paint over with their laws and whatnot.
The downgrade provided a...different perspective on 1A.
-1-A dimensions are a thing.
Except that 1-A for Shinza is based on the fact that they are supposed to be above every single extension of said dimensions. Obviously you can't both get a rating for not being touched by water when you get it splashed to your face several time in a week.
Another point of the opposition related to the whole stuff is that some points are based on 1-A being a given (mainly Yakou barriers somehow being 1-A because it "blocked a 1-A being"), which is a backward logic.
For these reasons, the person on this side think that 1-A should say
To be fair to Yuri, he's not exactly wrong. I agree that arguing that the barriers being 1A due to blocking a "1A" being is pretty weird and backward...
However, the line I'm talking about is the notion that 1A Shinza was based on gods being beyond any extension of dimensionality. If that was true, then Shinza would have never been 1A after the revision. Paradise Lost would have bitchslapped the verse to higher-dimensional a long time ago.
What got them to 1A was the gods being beyond the canvas, regardless of how many qualitative dimensions/layers were stacked/added. That was 1A Shinza, not being beyond any extent of dimensionality.
However, there were a few issues I had with the arguments made by Yuri (albeit, they were pretty good)
Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.
Now, I know that this isn't really an argument made by Yuri, but that's not at all what the post says. You could probably get away with using that kind of explanation for the difference between colorless Taiji and colored Taiji (albeit, it's kinda wrong), but this isn't how Taikyoku works in relation to the rest of the physical laws or phenomenon.
It's explicitly stated that the difference between Taikyoku and the physical law/phenomenon is due to the massive scale and "density" of Taikyoku. The whole warping all of Creation thing is just more things to show just how big this scale actually is.
Seeing as I'm extremely lazy and whatnot, I'll do what Yuri did and just post the entire scene cause...why not?
Here it is, the time stamp should be the same as the one that Yuri set, so...ye
First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.
So, he's kinda right, tbf. I do have to point out that it was never actually stated in the revisions that there was a transcendence factor (albeit, you could just apply the Throne being Hyperdimensional to that, anyway)
However, the weird thing is that no evidence was offered here. In fact, the logic here is basically: "Cause no evidence is shown, the claim can be completely discarded", which works for debates, but not in a revision thread. In fact, whenever someone offered evidence the counter was the same: "it's definitely not evidence for a transcendence factor", which is kind of true, but not exactly the best counter... at all.
Again, I'm lazy, so I'll just post the group of scans that @Infera28 used to go against the downgrade.
Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence.
There's also a bunch of other things in K3 that calls the gods transcendents, the Throne transcending everything, Gods even being called truly transcendental beings, etc.
My point is that there is a transcendence factor, which is where this statement even comes from, anyway.
Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).
I think that this was already talked about and whatnot, but...I think I already discussed this earlier, but attaining Atziluth does entail a transcendence factor, so this just seems to be some kind of headcanon (albeit, it does logically make sense). If I was to explain it, Briah would be a temporary level of hax, but because Atziluth is permanent, it would also upgrade their existences and whatnot (just my take on it, of course)
If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.
https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/
Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).
https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional
Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.
Obviously, I think it's a common consensus that Chō-Jigen > Ko Jigen (Higher dimensional). However, is that 1A? Definitely not (well, not without context). It would likely just refer to the peak of cosmology, which is consistent with how the Throne has been portrayed, anyway. Obviously, this isn't a bit part of the downgrade, the big part is next.
One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.
なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."
喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.
立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.
そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.
高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.
I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made
The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".
Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.
There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.
空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.
位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.
The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.
Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.
So, before I even go in on this, I'm just going to say that I'm a bit neutral on saying if it's actually quite literal cause there are a few reasons why it wouldn't exactly work. Again, this goes back to the misconception that was there in the downgrade, cause taking that into account this actually doesn't disprove 1A whatsoever. Now, I somewhat agree with Yuri with it not merely referring to their relation to each other, but the reason why it's a bit...off is for a few reasons:
1. Akuro didn't have his Taikyoku on when that statement was made
2. The "phase in physics" seems to be purely figurative language due to said "phase in physics" referring to where Yato actually was, which was the singularity (from what I remember, of course), which is beyond all of Creation including its laws.
3. It basically proves that Akuro's relation to Soujirou was like a picture to reality, anyway.
For number 1, the common defense I hear will likely be that Morei also didn't activate her Taikyoku against Madara (until later), but was still above him (which isn't really that true cause they were somewhat equal...somewhat). However, the problem is that Madara does have a tier 3 key (which makes literally no sense, but whatever). My point is that it's not very quantifiable. Even then, Akuro was fighting EE (the human fodders), while Morei was fighting Madara, who already has Taikyoku (albeit, he's basically fodder)
Now, for evidence that Akuro didn't have his Taikyoku on at that moment, I'll just post three vids (they're all on chronological order, so it should give a fairly good idea of what happened)
Here's where the Higher dimensional stuff was mentioned.
Here's the fight between Morei and Madara, which is following this.
Here's where they start using their Taikyoku together.
ye.
And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:
基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.
感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.
あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"
If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)
So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.
And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.
I'm a little confused why nobody talked about this at all. It was barely mentioned in the downgrade thread, anyway. The main point against this is that it's already implied in the series that Soujirou's distortion was already higher dimensional before he became a god. He just knew about it as a god. Taking that into account, what he used to cut the Tenma just seems to be his distortion amped by his Taikyoku.
It's basically implied here, but I'm fairly certain it's also implied in the series as well, but I need to find that scan again.
To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara
And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.
Morei's flames/Law instance
節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--
ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.
変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.
「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"
「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."
「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"
大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.
宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.
以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--
されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.
空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.
位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.
「――──」
"---"
驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.
「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."
Sukuna + Ootake instance
両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.
収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.
攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.
血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.
宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--
遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).
人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.
巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.
小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--
「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."
躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.
雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.
随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.
And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).
かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).
So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.
So, the first thing I want to point out is that the first example is a slightly incorrect translation (albeit, it literally means nothing). However, I think @Infera28 did a fairly good job at contesting this.
彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。
初伝 太極 2
Other thing to mention was that Yakou was capable of stacking "dimensions" and whatnot to his barriers, which you could use to actually further justify 1A cause their relation to reality never once changed, which does support something the FAQ says (I'll probably bring it up a little later)
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
This was the scan that I saw a lot of people using to contest this notion that the barriers are amped by Madara and whatnot.
Issue is that's not exactly what it says. It says that he can manipulate all things in nature/all physical phenomenon, but he's unable to rewrite the laws of the world. This is mainly because of his lack of a craving, which is why he doesn't have things like Morei's flames, Akuro's corrosion, Ootake's power of death, etc. (something the fight against Ootake definitely talked about. I'll pull up a quick scan)
The main difference between Madara and beings like Morei, Akuro, and Ootake is that he doesn't have a craving, a desire that he wants to achieve or affect the rest of the world with.
Basically, I think its a gross misinterpretation (obviously, I'm just playing with words here, so plz nobody get offended)
And I agree that the last example isn't the best thing either cause of what Yuri said.
Another thing to bring up is that Madara does try using the barriers on Ootake before, which Ootake oneshots. I saw some people claiming that it was just due to hax alone, which could work...if a weaker barrier hadn't effortlessly stopped Ootake's Kamunagara, which is literally described as "the universe with a shape" and whatnot. It, too, would have the same all destroying properties that Ootake himself has.
-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).
「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."
そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.
複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.
圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.
曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.
いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.
なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--
So, this one is a bit weird, but tbf we could just ignore this just seeing as everything else doesn't work, anyway. However, even going with this, the Mandala referred to here, if I'm not mistaken, is referring to all of Creation, which doesn't really downgrade anything cause this was common knowledge anyway. Only gods were able to fully manipulate and transcend Creation (unless you want to wank Methuselah, of course)
-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".
I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).
So, this one is a bit of a weird case, but the easiest way to counter this is to first just state that it being referred to as "temporal" is just referring to it being in, essentially, a time stop. Said time stop is likely there because of the complete disconnection that the realm has over reality, which is even conceptual in nature. I agree that it not having a concept of time flow doesn't really mean it doesn't have time...
-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.
First of all, I don't think that Paradise Lost should ever, and I mean, EVER be used in a downgrade like this (albeit it's just miscellaneous). The dimensions in Paradise Lost were extremely vague, and we know that they're outside and disconnected from the canvas, which is why a 1A rating was given to said dimensions in the first place. And besides, 1A dimensions are still possible. In fact, if Shinza was beyond any extension of dimensionality, they'd be High 1A, possibly higher, so...yeah (obviously, I've already said that because there are dimensions above the canvas and whatnot, they're not above every possible extension of dimensionality, so no High 1A)
The dimensional hole seems to be referring to this thing here:
覇道同士の激突によって特異点を発生させ、波旬の存在する超深奥の太極座まで全力で次元の孔を掘り進めていた。穢土が存続するということは、すなわち神州を基点にした空間の掘削。その行いは想像を絶するほどの長い時間、人知れず決戦を目指して行なわれていた。
Which, in it of itself, is fairly vague. In fact, given everything we know of the singularity, it seems to refer to a hole through dimensions rather than something actually bound by dimensionality. Even then, it wouldn't really disprove anything that well, either.
As well as that, the whole different dimensions thing seems to be a mistranslation as the actual translation, from what I got at least, seems to refer to it as a dimensional distance, rather than them actually being dimensions...
Now, as for tiering, I think they should be put back to 1A, but I don't have anything against them being something like Low 1A or even High 1B and whatnot.
Now, the other thing is that I really do want to promote honesty on these threads, so I hope that people will not be putting fake scans, derailing, or even putting up fake pieces of text cause that's just unacceptable, and if that's what people have fallen to, then I do agree that the pages of the untranslated verses, such as K3, should be deleted.
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