• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
5,879
1,072
Not all of these are new abilities that aren’t already in cognitive physiology, just more scans, more context, more stuff for hax potency and all that.

Persona series additions:

Nyx’s resistance to resistance negation addition: Nyx with Moonless Gown is immune even to break spells

SP is spiritual power

Instant Death spells gain deconstruction, likely existence erasure:
In game, they pretty much disintegrate the target, and its obvious why this isn’t just AP but durability negation, it ignores stat buffs, is guaranteed to kill if the effect occurs and more. Gameplay scan needed, but here’s manga/anime depictions. Some characters in SMT have slightly different effects with their instant death spells so I’ll explain those in the SMT section



Ren Amamiya gets deconstruction likely existence erasure without an instant death skill: His Eiha covered up Loki and pretty much erased him.

The Persona 4 cast who scale to Shadow Naoto should be outerverse level:
Shadow Naoto can take a hit from Yu's Beelzebub. In the anime, they all ran away from her Megidolaon, so we don’t know to what extent the other characters scale to Shadow Naoto. Ameno Sagiri probably scales, he had to use Lucifer
to one shot it

SMT additions:

A lot of these apply to Persona series as well

Unholy manipulation for ones that use darkness/curse spells, its basically just the opposite of holy element. Should technically apply to the whole verse since demons use demonic power (if that wasn't already obvious) - Devil Survivor the Animation

Continued from the deconstruction/existence erasure:
Mudo spells corrode the enemy
Hama spells erase the enemy

Addition to their sealing resistance: Demons can't be confined by Raidou when under the full moon. Raidou’s confine technique would otherwise seal them inside a tube. So if in a VS matchup where a demon is fighting someone with like mega powerful sealing beyond their regular resistance, then you could just make the match take place under a full moon

Nyarlathotep (Faceless god):

Telepathy - Nyarlathotep speaks to a bunch of people telepathically
Madness Manipulation - Each word Nyarlathotep spoke to the characters' minds brought them closer to madness
Summoning - Summons a Yamato-no-Orochi and Orthrus
Mind manipulation, sense and perception manipulation, illusion creation

Nyarlathotep gets immortality type 2


Beelzebub additions


Yoshitsune upgrade?
  • To fuse him in Persona 4, you need Masakado but Masakado is like a lot stronger than him, so maybe Masakado in Apocalypse got stronger over time and shouldn't be used for scaling people above Lucifer and Merkabah unless its scaling to Masakado from IV or later.

Raidou stuff:

Limited Paralysis Inducement: Briefly stuns enemies with his bullets
Will add more stuff in another CRT, maybe there should be a note on his profile that its undergoing revision, there’s a lot of abilities and scans that are missing

Shiva:

Tadano:

Demi-Fiend:

  • Same thing, except he survived the destruction of the Amala Network and all of creation. I know they’re already 1-A, but having 1-A durability isn’t actually enough to survive spatial manipulation on a universal to 2-A scale, believe it or not (unless you’re also 1-A in size)

Nahobino:



There’s also something I need to clarify: The plasma cloud shield surrounding the Schwartzwelt hole dismantles all approaching objects at a molecular level, and the interior of the hole repels foreign bodies somehow, destroying every unmanned probe sent in. The Red Sprite flew around it to avoid that cloud, but does anyone recall if any character/demon survives in it?
 
Last edited:
Nyx should be fine.

Okay with deconstruction but not existence erasure since this is more visual stuff.

Weakness with SP not agreeing with. Seems like you could apply that to anyone who runs out of energy in any series.

No on Yoshitsune since other than this he has nothing that puts him remotely close on Masakados' level.

Will look onto other stuff later.
 
I'm not the most knowledgeable supporter, but I'll give some of my first impressions:
Persona series additions:

Nyx’s resistance to resistance negation addition: Nyx with Moonless Gown is immune even to break spells

Instant Death spells gain deconstruction, likely existence erasure:
In game, they pretty much disintegrate the target, and its obvious why this isn’t just AP but durability negation, it ignores stat buffs, is guaranteed to kill if the effect occurs and more. Gameplay scan needed, but here’s manga/anime depictions. Some characters in SMT have slightly different effects with their instant death spells so I’ll explain those in the SMT section

This all seems relatively straightforward, but I don't agree with existence erasure for Hama/Mudo skills for the reasons @MarvelFanatic119 stated. I agree with deconstruction, however.

SP is spiritual power, this can be added to weaknesses to Persona users that they use up spiritual power for spells, and any SP manipulating spell should be soul manipulation (though in the anime they don’t often run out of SP so its not that big of a weakness)
This doesn't necessarily seem like a weakness, per se. SP is simply another metric to measure stamina (Mental/Spiritual stamina, as opposed to physical stamina), which we obviously already record on our profiles.

Ren Amamiya gets deconstruction likely existence erasure without an instant death skill: His Eiha covered up Loki and pretty much erased him.
I'm more inclined to believe this is simply a visual/aesthetic choice, as opposed to actual feat. Persona are facets of one's mind and soul, specifically their shadow fused with an archetype of the Collective Unconsciousness. Erasing an individual's Persona from existence would be the equivalent of destroying that part of the user's personality, which is obviously not what happens to Akechi.

SMT additions:

A lot of these apply to Persona series as well

Unholy manipulation for ones that use darkness/curse spells, its basically just the opposite of holy element. Should technically apply to the whole verse since demons use demonic power (if that wasn't already obvious) - Devil Survivor the Animation

Continued from the deconstruction/existence erasure:
Mudo spells corrode the enemy
Hama spells erase the enemy

Addition to their sealing resistance: Demons can't be confined by Raidou when under the full moon. Raidou’s confine technique would otherwise seal them inside a tube. So if in a VS matchup where a demon is fighting someone with like mega powerful sealing beyond their regular resistance, then you could just make the match take place under a full moon

Nyarlathotep (Faceless god):

Telepathy - Nyarlathotep speaks to a bunch of people telepathically
Madness Manipulation - Each word Nyarlathotep spoke to the characters' minds brought them closer to madness
Summoning - Summons a Yamato-no-Orochi and Orthrus
Mind manipulation, sense and perception manipulation, illusion creation

Nyarlathotep gets immortality type 2

I agree with these.

Beelzebub additions

These are all fine as well, and I've actually added some of these to the Beelzebub draft I'm working on.

An Aura Gate is the Dragon Stream, which is the collective unconscious
This a little nit-picky on my part, but the Aura Gate is actually just a realm that gradually leads to the Dragon Stream, which is only a manifestation of the CU.

Yoshitsune upgrade
I don't think this is enough to upgrade him, to be frank. He doesn't have any feats or showings that would place him anywhere near Masakado, and there's nothing from his mythological origins that could be used to scale him to the god either. Masakado being one of his fusion component in one game is more of an outlier than anything else.

Raidou stuff:

Limited Paralysis Inducement: Briefly stuns enemies with his bullets
Will add more stuff in another CRT, maybe there should be a note on his profile that its undergoing revision, there’s a lot of abilities and scans that are missing
This seems fine, but I believe @ShivaShakti is already working on an updated Raidou Kuzunoha profile. You might want to coordinate your efforts with her.

Shiva:
This is fine as well, but Ardha already has their own profile and is on the cusp of being upgraded come next CRT.

Tadano:

Demi-Fiend:

  • Same thing, except he survived the destruction of the Amala Network and all of creation. I know they’re already 1-A, but having 1-A durability isn’t actually enough to survive spatial manipulation on a universal to 2-A scale, believe it or not (unless you’re also 1-A in size)

Nahobino:

I'm not too knowledgeable on the standards for Spatial Manipulation Resistance, but these appear fine at a glance.

I think Law manipulation should probably be removed for Miracles, I’m pretty sure its just stated to change reality, not laws. But I’m only halfway through the game, if someone has the scan for law manipulation that would be good
"Miracles are the means to change the reasons of the world as the Nahobino wills it."
 
Last edited:
Ok, but get someone to translate that, DeepL isn't the most reliable
I'm not putting in that much effort for the justification of one ability. Both the English and Japanese descriptions explain that Miracles control the "reasons" of reality, which should be more than enough evidence.
 
I doubt reasons of the world is enough
What other evidence would be needed? Miracles alter aspects of reality (this is displayed through their various gameplay effects), and the World of Shadows elaborates that they do so by changing the fundamental laws (refered to as "reasons") of reality.
 
What other evidence would be needed? Miracles alter aspects of reality (this is displayed through their various gameplay effects), and the World of Shadows elaborates that they do so by changing the fundamental laws (refered to as "reasons") of reality.
That's just reality warping and reasons of reality isn't the same as laws of reality
 
That's just reality warping and reasons of reality isn't the same as laws of reality
The specific word the Japanese explanation uses is "摂理", meaning "Divine Providence". In theology, the term is used to describe God's control and guidance over reality. This is particularly important because, in the context of SMTV, "God" refers to YHVH, who is the literal embodiment of law itself in Megami Tensei.

The second character in the word is "理", which literally translates to "reason, principle, logic, or natural way of things". Compare this to the standards for Law Manipulation:
The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality, referring to rules, mandates and even fundamental logical principles/truths/facts that are the way in which a reality may function.
 
Last edited:
The specific word the Japanese explanation uses is "摂理", meaning "Divine Providence". In theology, the term is used to describe God's control and guidance over reality. This is particularly important because, in the context of SMTV, "God" refers to YHVH, who is the literal embodiment of law itself in Megami Tensei.

The second character in the word is "理", which literally translates to "reason, principle, logic, or natural way of things". Compare this to the standards for Law Manipulation:
Ok then
 
Bump I might as well reiterate my stances on each addition or proposal.

Agree:
Nyx Resistance to Resistance Negation
Deconstruction for Hama/Mudo skills
Unholy Manipulation for Mudo/Eiha skills
Sealing Resistance Addition for demons
Nyarlathotep Additions
Beelzebub Additions
Raidou Additions
Shiba Additions (minus Ardha key, since they already have a profile)

Disagree:
Spiritual Points Weakness
Joker Eiha Deconstruction
Naoto/Ameno-Sagiri 1-A scaling
Yoshitsune Upgrade

Neutral:
Spatial Manipulation Resistance
 
Last edited:
Bump I might as well reiterate my stances on each addition or proposal.

Agree:
Nyx Resistance to Resistance Negation
Deconstruction for Hama/Mudo skills
Unholy Manipulation for Mudo/Eiha skills
Sealing Resistance Addition for demons
Nyarlathotep Additions
Beelzebub Additions
Raidou Additions
Shiba Additions (minus Ardha key, since they already have a profile)

Disagree:
Spiritual Points Weakness
Joker Eiha Deconstruction
Yoshitsune Upgrade

Neutral:
Naoto/Ameno-Sagiri 1-A scaling
Spatial Manipulation Resistance
Ok, but any reasoning for the naoto bit
 
Ok, but any reasoning for the naoto bit
I'm ambivalent on it. To me, it seems like an outlier than anything else. The Investigation Team hadn't encountered anything near 1-A up to the Shadow Naoto fight, so I don't believe a feat from a supplementary piece of material is really enough to upgrade her. The same rationale applies to Ameno-Sagiri's scaling as well.
 
I'm ambivalent on it. To me, it seems like an outlier than anything else. The Investigation Team hadn't encountered anything near 1-A up to the Shadow Naoto fight, so I don't believe a feat from a supplementary piece of material is really enough to upgrade her. The same rationale applies to Ameno-Sagiri's scaling as well.
Why do you need another feat to prove it? 1 is enough, otherwise we need to downgrade a massive amount of characters for having only 1 feat on that level. No idea why you'd think a "supplementary piece of material" is anything, as if we don't use novel adaptations for a lot of things in the verse
 
Why do you need another feat to prove it? 1 is enough, otherwise we need to downgrade a massive amount of characters for having only 1 feat on that level. No idea why you'd think a "supplementary piece of material" is anything, as if we don't use novel adaptations for a lot of things in the verse
The issue isn't just that it's somewhat of an outlier feat, or that it's from supplementary material. The issue is that it's both concurrently. Yu isn't able to summon Beelzebub until he reaches level 77, which is far above the level 55 Shadow Naoto. The Persona 4 anime, while technically canonical, doesn't entirely follow the game's leveling system and contains a handful of outliers, which segues into my next point. Yu being forced to use Lucifer to dispatch Ameno-Sagiri would cause a recursive scaling loop, since Lucifer is more powerful than Izanami to begin with. It seems apparent to me that using the anime to scale characters isn't reliable, since it clearly follows its own progression in terms of power.
 
Last edited:
The issue isn't just that it's somewhat of an outlier feat, or that it's from supplementary material. The issue is that it's both concurrently. Yu isn't able to summon Beelzebub until he reaches level 77, which is far above the level 55 Shadow Naoto. The Persona 4 anime, while technically canonical, doesn't entirely the game's leveling system and contains a handful of outliers, which segues into my next point. Yu being forced to use Lucifer to dispatch Ameno-Sagiri would cause a recursive scaling loop, since Lucifer is more powerful than Izanami to begin with. It seems apparent to me that using the anime to scale characters isn't reliable, since it clearly follows its own progression in terms of power.
Yu isn't able to summon Beelzebub until he reaches level 77, which is far above the level 55 Shadow Naoto.

Then maybe Yu is just level 77 when fighting Naoto?

Yu being forced to use Lucifer to dispatch Ameno-Sagiri would cause a recursive scaling loop, since Lucifer is more powerful than Izanami to begin with.

So? He one shotted Ameno-Sagiri
 
My point is that the way the animation handles Yu's progression of power is completely different from the original game, and thus shouldn't be used for scaling purposes.


It's an outlier that causes an issue with the scaling chain. That should be more than enough of a reason.
No? There is no canon progression of power in the game like that

Why is it an outlier?
 
No? There is no canon progression of power in the game like that
This is such a blatantly absurd statement. The prerequisites to unlock both Beelzebub and Lucifer are locked behind scripted events (social links), and cannot be fused until Yu reaches a certain level threshold. This is true for every ultimate Persona. Level scaling, while dubious on its own, helps clarify approximately when Yu should gain access to a given Persona. As proven during the events of Persona Q, a Persona user attempting to wield a Persona of a higher level than themselves results in complete possession. There is clearly some semblance of order to the progression system. The anime, as a derivative work, is obviously going to take some creative liberties in regards to how it depicts boss fights. In the case where a secondary material's content somewhat contradicts primary material, it should be obvious which work takes precedence.

Why is it an outlier?
Ameno-Sagiri is weaker than Izanami, and Lucifer is stronger than her. Therefore, Ameno-Sagiri cannot scale to Lucifer in any capacity.
 
This is such a blatantly absurd statement. The prerequisites to unlock both Beelzebub and Lucifer are locked behind scripted events (social links), and cannot be fused until Yu reaches a certain level threshold. This is true for every ultimate Persona. Level scaling, while dubious on its own, helps clarify approximately when Yu should gain access to a given Persona. As proven during the events of Persona Q, a Persona user attempting to wield a Persona of a higher level than themselves results in complete possession. There is clearly some semblance of order to the progression system. The anime, as a derivative work, is obviously going to take some creative liberties in regards to how it depicts boss fights. In the case where a secondary material's content somewhat contradicts primary material, it should be obvious which work takes precedence.


Ameno-Sagiri is weaker than Izanami, and Lucifer is stronger than her. Therefore, Ameno-Sagiri cannot scale to Lucifer in any capacity.
Why does any of that matter? Yu could simply just have gotten the prerequisites to unlock Beelzebub, this isn't contradictory

I never even said Ameno Sagiri scales to Lucifer, I'm saying it scales to Shadow Naoto and is 1-A
 
Why does any of that matter? Yu could simply just have gotten the prerequisites to unlock Beelzebub, this isn't contradictory
You seem to be misunderstanding my argument. My point was that, in the primary canon of the game, Yu needs to be significantly stronger than Shadow Naoto in order to even fuse Beelzebub. The anime simultaneously depicts Yu struggling against Shadow Naoto (implying they're relatively equal) whilst also being able to utilize a Persona that would be able to stomp her. To reiterate: using a Persona above one's own level results in possession - this is something that has been established in-lore. Furthermore, the anime in general takes a difference approach to how Yu uses his Persona compared to the actual game. Pyro Jack, Ara Mitama, Makami, and King Frost, all Persona who are relegated to the early game in the original P4, are used against the mid-game boss Shadow Mitsuo. This, coupled with the previous examples of Beelzebub and Lucifer, supports the notion that the anime deviates from the original game enough for the aforementioned feats to be considered outliers.

I never even said Ameno Sagiri scales to Lucifer, I'm saying it scales to Shadow Naoto and is 1-A
I misinterpreted, sorry. Regardless, the argument in the last paragraph is still valid.
 
You seem to be misunderstanding my argument. My point was that, in the primary canon of the game, Yu needs to be significantly stronger than Shadow Naoto in order to even fuse Beelzebub. The anime simultaneously depicts Yu struggling against Shadow Naoto (implying they're relatively equal) whilst also being able to utilize a Persona that would be able to stomp her. To reiterate: using a Persona above one's own level results in possession - this is something that has been established in-lore. Furthermore, the anime in general takes a difference approach to how Yu uses his Persona compared to the actual game. Pyro Jack, Ara Mitama, Makami, and King Frost, all Persona who are relegated to the early game in the original P4, are used against the mid-game boss Shadow Mitsuo. This, coupled with the previous examples of Beelzebub and Lucifer, supports the notion that the anime deviates from the original game enough for the aforementioned feats to be considered outliers.


I misinterpreted, sorry. Regardless, the argument in the last paragraph is still valid.
Why does Yu need to be significantly stronger than Shadow Naoto to fuse Beelzebub?
 
As I explained before, the minimum level requirement to fuse Beelzebub is 81 (I know I said level 77 before, but that was a mistake on my part) while Shadow Naoto is level 55.
A level 81 can canonically be relative to a level 55 character. Its not like being a higher level makes you automatically stronger than any character that. For example Parvati in Nocturne is level 57 and in Persona 4 is level 37 and Shiva is level 80 in Persona 4 and 95 in Nocturne, and Parvati is the source of all of Shiva's power

In Hindu mythology, Parvati is the daughter of the lord of the mountains, Himavan, and the apsaras Mena. She is also the reincarnation of Sati, the first consort of Shiva. Parvati personifies many noble virtues such as fertility, devotion, marital happiness, asceticism, and power. Some teachings even say that she is the source of all power in the universe, and is where Shiva gets his power, even going as far as to sometimes portray her as one-half of Shiva. She is widely worshiped by married women to ensure the health and longevity of their husbands.
 
A level 81 can canonically be relative to a level 55 character. Its not like being a higher level makes you automatically stronger than any character that.
You're missing the point. I obviously understand and agree that level scaling cannot be used due to how inconsistent it can be. My argument is that solely under the context of Persona 4's story, Yu wouldn't reasonably have access to a Persona that is significantly higher than an enemy he himself struggles to fight against. I'm only utilizing levels in order to illustrate when Yu should be capable of using a given Persona. Your argument, while true, doesn't have any relation to the topic at hand.
 
You're missing the point. I obviously understand and agree that level scaling cannot be used due to how inconsistent it can be. My argument is that solely under the context of Persona 4's story, Yu wouldn't reasonably have access to a Persona that is significantly higher than an enemy he himself struggles to fight against. I'm only utilizing levels in order to illustrate when Yu should be capable of using a given Persona. Your argument, while true, doesn't have any relation to the topic at hand.
Why would Beelzebub be "significantly higher" than Shadow Naoto? Do you think its impossible for Yu to get Beelzebub by Naoto's dungeon?
 
I told you why levels are irrelevant here dude, its possible for a level 81 Yu to be relative to a level 55 Shadow Naoto
 
I told you why levels are irrelevant here dude, its possible for a level 81 Yu to be relative to a level 55 Shadow Naoto
You didn't. What you explained was how level scaling cannot work because of the inconsistent portrayal of various demons throughout different entries. What I am arguing is that Yu would not logically be capable of using certain Persona by comparing the statistics of Shadow Naoto and Beelzebub within the same entry. I'm not using the levels of any Persona or shadow to directly determine the scaling of any particular character. I'm using the level system present in the game (which has been confirmed as canonical via Persona Q) to argue how the anime doesn't necessarily provide fully accurate depictions of fights in the game.
 
You didn't. What you explained was how level scaling cannot work because of the inconsistent portrayal of various demons throughout different entries. What I am arguing is that Yu would not logically be capable of using certain Persona by comparing the statistics of Shadow Naoto and Beelzebub within the same entry. I'm not using the levels of any Persona or shadow to directly determine the scaling of any particular character. I'm using the level system present in the game (which has been confirmed as canonical via Persona Q) to argue how the anime doesn't necessarily provide fully accurate depictions of fights in the game.
its possible for a level 81 Yu to be relative to a level 55 Shadow Naoto

Refer to that
 
I am once again reiterating the same points repeatedly. This is going to be my last message regarding this particular subject until the thread receives more outside input, since this argument has been going in circles for the last day or so.
So? The Yu that fought Ameno-Sagiri could just be a lot stronger than the one that fought Naoto
The "level 81" Yu you were referring to is that stronger version. Ameno-Sagiri is level 77, and considered to be a "late-game" enemy in our profiles. Beezlebub cannot be fused until the protagonist has reached level 81. Therefore, Beelzebub is a Persona that Yu would only logically have access to in his late-game and endgame keys. Shadow Naoto, a boss who is encountered during the mid-game, should not normally be able to contend evenly with a late-game Yu. Your line of reasoning results in a recursive scaling chain (Shadow Naoto <<< Ameno-Sagiri < late-game Yu =~ Shadow Naoto). I am more inclined to believe the fight is simply an outlier.

*Edit: Meant to say Beelzebub, not Lucifer.
 
I am once again reiterating the same points repeatedly. This is going to be my last message regarding this particular subject until the thread receives more outside input, since this argument has been going in circles for the last day or so.

The "level 81" Yu you were referring to is that stronger version. Ameno-Sagiri is level 77, and considered to be a "late-game" enemy in our profiles. Beezlebub cannot be fused until the protagonist has reached level 81. Therefore, Beelzebub is a Persona that Yu would only logically have access to in his late-game and endgame keys. Shadow Naoto, a boss who is encountered during the mid-game, should not normally be able to contend evenly with a late-game Yu. Your line of reasoning results in a recursive scaling chain (Shadow Naoto <<< Ameno-Sagiri < late-game Yu =~ Shadow Naoto). I am more inclined to believe the fight is simply an outlier.

*Edit: Meant to say Beelzebub, not Lucifer.
Or maybe Yu just canonically got to level 81 in Naoto's dungeon in the anime? Or that the level number is just a game mechanic because the Phantom Thieves in Strikers are at full power but are like level 5 at the beginning of the game
 
Back
Top