Shigeo Kageyama VS Kurapika

[ZoroNotZolo]

???% Shigeo VS Kurapika from Yorknew Arc and onward

Speed equalized.


Shigeo - 0

Kurapika - 0

Inconclusive - 0

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Ooh, this looks promising.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

bump

 

[Imaginym]

In this match is Kurapika using Emperor Time? Is he able to? Without it, I'm unsure he's much of a match.

At the very least, we know that a prerequisite to it is intense emotion, & ET's activity -but not necessarily what it does- will be obvious to Mob via Kurapika's eyes suddenly turning red.

With it, what's to stop Kurapika from using Judgement Chain on Mob & setting the 2 conditions to something like:

1. "While awake, use your psychic powers as much as possible, on nonliving matter only, without harming or affecting me or other people."

2. "Do not move until you fall asleep."

Judgement Chain's ability makes it so that violating either of whatever 2 conditions Kurapika sets gets their heart get crushed, killing them.

Also, WHY DON'T WE HAVE KURAPIKA'S EMPEROR TIME'S DRAWBACKS ON HIS PROFILE?!

IIRC, the drawbacks are that Judgement Chain can only be used in Emperor Time (Seriously, why doesn't our Kurapika profile list Emperor Time's drawbacks?) & as ET progresses, Kurapika's mental state worsens, he loses like, 3600 seconds of his life per 1 second spent in ET, & although I don't remember the math for it, he passes out for what is usually a lot of hours.

According to SBA, both are willing to kill, but SBA also states combatants will win by any means; Killing is just one of several options. Kurapika is logical, meticulous, & typically not murderous to anyone but the Phantom Troupe.

Likewise, Mob doesn't like using his psychic powers on people, so the only thing that'd make him want to use 'em on Kurapika is SBA here.

TL;DR - If those two conditions or something similar enough get through, Kurapika would be able to force Mob either into:

A. Psychic pacifism, letting Kurapika wait -albeit, in Emperor Time- until Mob collapses; ??? is a very obvious super mode, & our profile even mentions it as a weakness that Mob tires faster in this form.

B. Recklessly using his abilities to affect only nonliving matter without harming or affecting people. Mob isn't very intelligent, & I doubt he's much smarter in ??? Mode. This condition would force him into wasting his already limited supply of energy until he falls unconscious. Using only on nonliving matter ALSO means Mob can't augment himself, so he'll be 10-C; If Mob follows condition 1, not Psychically augmenting himself will mean Kurapika can oneshot him.

And that's only with ONE condition; If Kurapika can force Mob into not moving, the option of trying to oneshot Mob with a surprise attack is even easier. Of course, all this assumes Kurapika successfully connects the chain & Mob can actually be killed by the chains squeezing his heart.


Hence, this is a very important question: Does Mob have a way of blocking, removing or surviving Judgement Chain?


As an alternative, Kurapika could try to use his Index Finger's chain to take an ability from Mob. As long as it's in the chain, Mob can't use it.

With enough draining, his Index Finger's chain can force the target into a state of Zetsu, which in HxH is basically keeping your Nen/Aura inside of your body; Beings that aren't controlling their nen like humans who don't know & most animals have their Aura outside their body by default as a thin layer.

Forcing someone into a Zetsu or similiar state means they have to keep it inside them, preventing its use. It also means they take & deal more damage, since your aura being exclusively inside you means it's not on the outside of your body to augment your offenses & defenses against neither physical, NOR non-physical attacks.

Assuming how verse equalization would work here, Mob being in a Zetsu like state would shut down his use of psychic powers nigh completely & leave his AP & Durability at least as low as he is without them, if not slightly lower.

The issue is this probably takes a lot of draining. But I haven't read far enough to know how much.

Also, without ET, for the Index Finger's Chain, Kurapika needs to know which of 6 Nen types the Ability's owner is (How do we work that out for Mob?), & "a specific hatsu"? As in, he needs to know the name of the ability to steal? Any ability of the target's?

Kurapika's profile seriously needs work.

As an alternative to that, he can use the Index Finger's Steal Chain Ability in ET, using what is called, IIRC, Stealth Dolphin. Not only would this nullify 1 power, but Kurapika presumably doesn't need the info he does in base, & could USE the ability for himself. Just once, before it returns to Mob.

The problem with his Index Finger's Chain w/ ET that is it both needs ET, & locks Kurapika into it. It's nice enough to regularly tell him how long he's been in ET, but with a deteriorating physical & mental state & stamina, this is a potential distraction & annoyance.

Not to mention, EXITING Emperor Time means Kurapika knocks himself out & loses a lot of his lifespan.

1 second of Emperor Time is 1 hour off Kurapika's life. If he waited 8 hours in ET with Judgement Chain for Mob to collapse, Kurapika would lose about 3.27 years of his life. (60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour, 3600s=1h. 8 hours=8*3600=28,800 seconds. 28,800 seconds of ET=3600 times as many seconds off K's life. 28,800*3600=103,680,000 seconds, or a little over 3.27 years.)

If we wanted to assume best case stamina for Mob, with no precedent, we could be absurd & assume the lowered stamina ??? Mob -who's still a middle schooler & not very fit to begin with- could stay awake as long as the IRL record, which is around 11 days & 24 minutes.

But given that, IIRC, going 24 hours without being able to harm your opponent is a lose condition by SBA, let's use 23 hours, 59 minutes & 59 seconds. 86399 * 3600=311,036,400 seconds lost to ET. A little over 9.86 years.

So at the very least, if Kurapika can actually use these techniques on Mob, he PROBABLY won't die by lifespan loss? (He's only 19. Most people live to around 71.)

Also, his Healing abilities are kinda relevant, I guess? Again:

Does Mob have a way of blocking, removing or surviving Judgement Chain? (Or Steal Chain?)

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I mean, Mob has telekinesis, and Kurapika's chains aren't living things. I'm fairly certain he can just bat them aside with telekinesis.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Also, as for judgment chain, Kurapika would have to have some kind of extreme payoffs for such wild conditions. He could only use chain jail against the Phantom Troupe with the condition that if he attempts it on anyone else, he will die. Is he allowed to apply the same condition to himself twice?

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

For the record, Kurapike has access to Emperor Time and I'm not sure, if Kurapika could do it to him, that Mob would be able to survive Judgement Chain.

 

[Imaginym]

@Litentric Teon: https://hunterxhunter.fandom.com/wiki/Kurapika#Ne

Judgement Chain's restriction, IIRC, is that it can't be used without Emperor Time being active in the first place. (Technically, it also functions as the restriction for Chain Jail; There's a chain that functions just like Judgement Chain around Kurapika's Heart that, if he uses CJ on a non-Spider, kills Kurapika the same way as JC kills someone who breaks either of the 2 conditions Kurapika sets.)

Also, I suppose needing to connect it is an issue itself besides the Active ET prerequisite.

Or are you saying that Kurapika, when using JC, needs to assign drawback conditions to himself to assign conditions with JC? If so, my memory's bad; If such a claim IS being made, source, please?


But yeah. That's kind of an issue I forgot about. Judgement Chain is physical, isn't it? I forget how JC was portrayed it's been a while since I've read what of the manga I did, & I haven't seen that episode of the anime in a while.

I mean, it goes inside the heart, but according to the Wiki, it's based not only on Conjuration, but Emission & Manipulation (Kurapika's 2 weakest Nen-types as he's innately a Conjurer & those 2 types are the most unlike/opposite to Conjurer in the Nen System.) as well, which are often based on projecting or doing fancy control with your Nen. Heck, JC being based on Emission & Manipulation, Kurapika's weakest Nen-types is specifically WHY he has to go into ET to use it at all.

So what parts of JC are physical?

If all of JC is physical, & indeed, all of Kurapika's chains are physical....

What about Stealth Dolphin, the ET version of his Index Finger's ability? It's not visible nor audible to anyone but Kurapika by default, & only the base version mentions the ability theft being painful.

It being able to steal 1 ability for 1 use -Like Mob's Telekinesis- could turn things around a little.

Is anyone who's read the manga able to clarify if:

A. Stealth Dolphin's use gives any signs when it's stealing an ability?

B. Is Stealth Dolphin tangible or otherwise able to be affected by Telekinesis?


If not, & all of Kurapika's chains, ET active & otherwise can be affected by TK.... Well, isn't Kurapika's movement of them kind of essential to his use of his abilities? And isn't TK Mob's most basic tactic?

So the answers to A & B are kind of important because they tell us if all of Kurapika's Hatsus & his movement options are completely nullified by Mob's most basic option of Telekinesis.

(I don't consider this a vote; More a request for information so an informed vote can be made for this match.)

Also, could someone post the scans on the drawbacks of ET? I don't remember it completely, but if I am remembering as much as I do CORRECTLY, then the Wiki doesn't cover in full the physical & mental affects on Kurapika, nor how long he ends up knocked out for after using it.

Which is relevant because besides the physical & mental drawbacks being bad -especially if he needs fine nen control- it's kinda important we know how long Kurapika knocks himself out for if he exits ET.


That said, there may STILL be a way for Kurapika to win this or at least draw.

Mob :

Stamina: Below Average | Average

Intelligence: Average

Weaknesses: Doesn't like to use his powers to harm others, gets tired after using 100% of his power for a long time. Is below average in all physical stats without the use of psychic abilities.

Kurapika:

Stamina: Very high, even in the HXH universe. Fought Uvogin, the most tenacious member of the Phantom Troupe and took numerous blows that would normally destroy city blocks.

Intelligence: Kurapika is one of the smartest characters in the series. He outmaneuvered minds of Chrollo's level with his perfect strategies and his predictions have rarely turned out to be wrong. He can formulate accurate plans even in combat to exploit his opponent's weaknesses to the fullest. Intuition is matched by logical thinking and meticulous preparations.


What all this means is, even if Kurapika ends up locked out of using his chains & immobilized by Mob, OP still specified this is ???% Mob, which is higher than 100%, & using 100% already tires Mob. (BTW, anyone got calcs for these two so we can know their exact AP/SS & Durability values?)

Kurapika has much higher Stamina & INT, so immobilized & without his chains, he still has the option to just focusing on using his Nen for enhancement; Speed is equalized so he should be able to react, & an important part of Nen training is moving your nen to whatever part is being attacked to augment its offense or defense.

With Speed Equalized, & Mob in an obviously superpowered, emotionally overflowing (effectively berserk form), it should be easy to infer that he's gonna tire out fast, & his emotional excess could probably make him predictable.

Thus, a potential winning or drawing strategy for Kurapika is to just use his nen for nothing but defense, & if Mob -who's much less smart, tires faster & is emotionally overflowing- ever leaves an opening for him to, use his Holy Chain to heal himself.

Even while pinned down or literally against a wall via Telekinesis, Kurapika SHOULD be able to control his own nen.

And Mob does have much lower stamina here, after all.

The main issue is that Kurapika is getting constantly wailed on by Mob, but he might not have much other choice. If he puts no effort into anything other than Defense, he could conserve enough of his already much higher Stamina to just let Mob fight until he collapses.

(Of course, knowing the AP/SS & Durability values for both characters is pretty important for evaluating this strategy.)

Best case scenario for Kurapika, Mob collapses from excess use of a form (???%) higher than 100%, & given that 100% already tires him out faster than usual.

A middle ground between Kurapika's best case & worst case for this strat is Kurapika exits ET early (It's activated by intense emotion.) & collapses along with Mob, or even with full on defensive Nen manipulation, healing at any opportunity, both get so tired out they both collapse.

Worst case scenario is this doesn't work at all & Kurapika dies. But without knowing the AP/SS & Durability values, it isn't easy to claim Mob is strong enough for that.

(That or the argument that Kurapika technically can't harm Mob in this state, so he loses by the SBA condition of being unable to harm the other fighter for over a day. But I doubt Mob can maintain 100% for a day, let alone ???%.)

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

@Imaginym

Seems like a vote for Kurapika. Or am I wrong?

 

[Litentric_Teon]

To be honest, I don't remember much of HxH since it's been a while since I've read/watched it. But yes, I was asking if JC needs an "on the spot" requirement, as the only condition for Kurapika being in ET required to use it seems insufficient for the effect of killing someone for using their nen abilities from what I can recall of the show. The conditions for the more OP abilities tend to be pretty extreme. But once again, I don't remember much.

I'm more knowledgeable on Kurapika than I am on Mob, as I haven't read/watched much of Mob Psycho. I just know that telekinesis is his most basic thing. Even him going into ??? flares up his telekinesis like an aura, which would halt Kurapkia's chains if they are physical.

Which, I'm fairly certain they are as they can physically touch skin, pierce hearts, slice through boulders, etc. Being covered in nen, from what I can recall, doesn't make something not physical unless its someone's ability.

I don't have much input on the fight outside of that. And thank you for the link, in case I didn't say it earlier.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

And neither Imaginym nor myself has cast a conclusive vote.

 

[Imaginym]

@Litentric Teon: No problem, although, as mentioned myself, my foggy memory says there's info missing from the HxH Wiki. Mostly about Emperor Time.

@MaverickIsTheHype: Quoting myself from my earlier post:

(I don't consider this a vote; More a request for information so an informed vote can be made for this match.)

As much as I'd like to be able to vote one way or another, there's a bunch of unanswered questions.

1. I don't know if Stealth Dolphin (The ET version of Steal Chain, Kurapika's ability-taking Index Finger's Chain ability.) is tangible, affected by TK, or gives any sign of its ability theft; Unlike its base form, Steal Chain, which inflicts severe pain when stealing.

The reason I'd question its tangibility, besides the name, is its status as a Specialization Type Nen Ability, & by default, Stealth Dolphin is invisible & inaudible to anyone but Kurapika, & when made otherwise, is seen & heard by a conjured earpiece & Telepathy.

2. Besides just taking away 1 ability until its used, Steal Chain can, if it drains enough, force a Zetsu state on its victim. This, on Mob, given verse equalization, would likely lock Mob out of his psychic powers & make him as weak or slightly weaker than his base. Could Stealth Dolphin also inflict a Zetsu-like state?

3. What AP/SS & Durability values are used for Kurapika & Mob?

Kurapika does have the option to try doing nothing but defensive Nen useage against Mob's TK, in the hopes of Mob wearing himself out & collapsing before he beats Kurapika (given Kurapika's much better Stamina & INT.), but that strategy won't work if Mob's AP is too high or Kurapika's Durability is too low.

So what are the values?

4. If Kurapika connects Judgement Chain, & proposes conditions, & Mob breaks either condition, will Mob be able to block, remove, or survive JC's kill method? The answer may come down to AP & Durability again. In his ??? form, where his emotions are overflowing & he may be tired, would Below Average to Average Intelligence Mob even realize or act quick enough against the chain that abruptly tries to crush his heart?

5. How long does Kurapika go unconscious for after stopping a use of Emperor Time?


I'm not sure I can vote for a winner, nor inconclusive with what info is available. Sorry. Not your fault.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

bump

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

bump

 

[Imaginym]

It may be worthwhile to ask someone knowledgeable about HxH about my questions. I could do that if you want. If you'd prefer to ask someone yourself, feel free, but if not, I'm happy to ask someone. Just say whichever you'd prefer, if you actually DO want either.