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Been a while since i’ve touched the Shadow of Mordor verse, and coming back to it, I’ve noticed a lot of problems involving its profiles. Between the outdated tier ratings, missing info/clarification on abilities, and are overall in a bad shape quality-wise. There was even a previous thread that addressed part of the problem, but that didn’t go far. So, I’m making this thread not only to fix the current rating, but to also revamp some of the profiles.
So what tier should they be now? Well, thanks to this approved calc, everybody that previously scaled to 8-A/7-A will now scale to 8-C+ [1.18 Tons]. Shadow of Mordor Talion should reliably scale, as the gap between the first game and Act 1 is not far given that Talion went to Mount Doom to forge the New Ring after the Black Hand’s death.
The Black Hand’s 7-A would be specified as being ED. Sauron might scale through ED as well, depending if one were to interpret either the Black Hand being another form of Sauron or simply the latter being summoned by the Black Hand. Sauron also has thunderstorms in his final fight, so there’s that.
Tl;dr: In the game, having Supernatural Willpower can let you tank/resist mind control.
Besides Talion and the Uruks/Ologs, characters like Sauron, the Black Captains, and Carnan should have this ability. Sauron himself repels Celebrimbor’s Domination twice. The Hammer can straight up counter Talion’s Domination, and so the other Black Captains should reasonably scale to him. With Carnan, Act 2 Celebrimbor states that both he and Talion can’t defeat her – which by extension also suggests that they can’t Dominate her.
Graug
Besides having its tier 8-C+, the only thing that needs updating are its ability section and intelligence. The ability section should be split due to its keys and its elemental abilities should be specified as to what type of Graug it is. The intelligence puts it at “Average” despite there being no justification whatsoever, so it should be downgraded to Animalistic instead. The page should look like this.
Caragor
Now, I do think Caragors should be upgraded to 8-C. Other than being a threat to Talion, they can actually take down Graugs on their own as seen here. Granted, they die in a couple of hits and are evidently weaker, so they should downscale to Building level instead. Like the Graug profile, there's little to no justification on their intelligence, so it should be downgraded to Animalistic. The page should look like this.
The Nazgul
Certain abilities should be split for unique members, such as Isildur and Helm Hammerhand. Their page should look like this.
Looking at it, this also gives Talion's own immortality some nifty advantages, but we'll get to him in a sec.
EDIT: After a bit of discussion, the Ringwraiths should also share the same abilities pertaining to Talion's Domination and Wraith powers. As Talion still retains his old powers from Celebrimbor/New Ring while wearing Isildur's Ring, and that Eltariel also gains abilities identical to Talion's after obtaining the New Ring, it's reasonable to say that the Nazgul should also share some of these abilities, since they also have the power to Dominate.
Some supporting evidence:
Makes sense since, again, they can also Dominate minds the same way the New Ring/Celebrimbor can. So the new abilities that they will get are Extrasensory Perception, Talion's Shaming ability, inducing death to Branded targets, and slowing down time while in the Wraith World (See sandbox).
Eltariel
Her ability section should also be split into her respective keys: Base Game/Without New Ring and Blade of Galadriel DLC/With New Ring. She gains a shit ton of abilities thanks to the New Ring, which is mostly just a 1:1 replica of Talion's own.
Although it's not finished yet, this is what her page should look like.
Talion
Now for the big man himself. His abilities are missing so much description that I'm surprised nobody had tried to rip it to shreds already. For this part, I'll specifically discuss two of his most important skill sets: His Immortality and Mind Manipulation.
So Talion can resurrect thanks to his bond with Celebrimbor, but the page doesn't elaborate upon as to how he resurrects. But thanks to in-game lore, we can get a good idea on how it works. Basically, Talion's immortality is comparable to the Nazgul's, who as we stated, can reform their physical bodies upon being defeated. This is thanks to the same lore entry which mentions this tidbit, as well as some decent showings that proves this. As seen here:
In essence, Talion can resurrect with a fully restored body after death, and he can keep doing so for as long as he is still tied to either Celebrimbor or the New Ring/Isildur's Ring. For supporting evidences, we see Talion resurrect from being impaled in the chest twice, with the wound being gone. Once from Eltariel (1:09:53 - 1:11:45) and the second time from Bruz. Pretty solid stuff. It's also true that Talion resurrects in either Barrows or Haedir Towers, but nothing states that he needs them in order to resurrect. Rather, they're just reliable places where he can resurrect at whenever and wherever.
The description would look like this:
Talion's mindhax is potent, in that it can bypass resistance against it and overriding already Dominated characters. This would, however, apply only to his Shadow of War Act 3 self.
Now, like what I've said earlier, Sauron's mindhax resistance lets him repel both Eltariel and Celebrimbor's Domination twice. But there is a statement which confirms that, if it had been Talion and Celebrimbor that fought Sauron, they would have succeeded in Dominating him. This statement comes from Shelob, who – in this game's setting – has precognitive abilities that let her accurately predict future events down to a tee. (i.e. Talion Dominating Isildur, and him becoming a Nazgul in the future)
Yes, we know that Uruks and Ologs can resist Talion's Domination. No, this doesn't make the above an anti-feat, nor is it that Uruk's Resistance > Sauron's. Talion also overrides Sauron's control over Isildur after Dominating him. So logically it just means that, prior to Act 3 of the story, Talion's Domination strength hasn't reached its apex yet, hency why Uruks are able to resist Domination by that point. And if we are to really take Shelob's statement at face value, it would also mean that it would have took both Talion and Celebrimbor in order to successfully Dominate Sauron, as Uruks can still resist it after Talion becomes a Ringwraith and loses Celebrimbor.
In a nutshell, Talion's Enhanced Mind Manipulation should strictly apply only to his Act 3 self. The description would look like this:
There are other changes and additions as well, but the sandbox has all of that covered. After the revision, Talion's page should look like this.
Uruk-Hai
The biggest problem I have for this one is that not only are the multiple keys unnecessarily bloat up the page, it also assumes that one Uruk has every single one of these abilities and strengths even though that's just not the case. Each Uruk has a unique skill set and weaknesses that makes it different from one another. An Uruk doesn't have more than two class types (i.e. a Commander can't be a Tank) and so do their Tribes (i.e. Machine Tribes can't simultaneously be a Mystic Tribe), and the profile doesn't make these distinctions clear enough. There's also the fact that the page neglects the fact that Uruks can have specific weaknesses - like fire, poison, ranged attacks, etc - which the profile leaves out.
It's nearly identical to a composite profile, since it merges all of their strengths and abilities into one profile despite clearly being distinct from one another.
The best solution for this is to reformat it into a civilization profile. The page would look like this.
There's a few additions I've made there that can be evaluated on, but here I'll elaborate as to why the Grunts get a possibly Building level rating. It's basically due to how the Grunts they can hurt and potentially kill Talion, then get stronger and get promoted as a result. The reason why it's not treated as just simple game mechanics is because of the way the Nemesis System works. To simplify, certain interactions and encounters that Talion makes with an Uruk is treated as actual events by the game: From Talion's followers potentially betraying him, his enemies cheating death after Talion defeats them, and most importantly, Talion becoming rivals with the Uruk/Olog who he fought with the most. This even carries to campaign missions, as whoever is Talion's biggest nemesis, he would need to beat them in order to progress the story.
The main point here is that - Since these encounters/interactions are acknowledged as real events that happen in both game and story, then Talion dying to a Grunt is also a potential possibility that can happen. Because after killing him, the same Grunt will grow stronger and become promoted. Hence why an Uruk/Olog Grunt killing Talion isn't just a mere game mechanic because of how the game treats it as an actual event that happens.
Not saying that the Grunts should outright scale to Talion, since they're still technically treated as fodder that the ranger easily kills in droves. It is why I propose giving them a possibly rating, which I believe is enough to warrant that given my previous points. They can also hunt down Caragors too, so take that if you will.
Key Takeaways
- Nuking the verse’s 8-A rating and 7-A scaling + Profiles scaling to a new tier
- Adding a new ability for the verse
- Revising certain profiles + Ability additions/updates
AP Downgrade
First things first is the Graug’s 8-A AP. It gets its rating from generating a Magnitude 5 earthquake while inside a cave. Now, this was added before the change on earthquake standards came along, so bringing up what the previous thread mentioned, the feat is wrong for two reasons:- It’s incorrect to assume that it’s an actual earthquake, as from what can be seen, the only affected area is the cave itself. There’s no mention of it being felt anywhere else, and again, no statement/implication of it being an earthquake. Ergo they’re just general vibrations done via the Graug’s physical strikes and not through seismic energy.
- It’s a complete outlier. Not only is this sequence the only time a Graug does this, nobody else comes close to performing a feat comparable to it. Not even the Legendary Graug – a much stronger variant – is able to replicate something similar. To make matters worse, the Graug gets crushed to death by the very cave-in that it caused.
So what tier should they be now? Well, thanks to this approved calc, everybody that previously scaled to 8-A/7-A will now scale to 8-C+ [1.18 Tons]. Shadow of Mordor Talion should reliably scale, as the gap between the first game and Act 1 is not far given that Talion went to Mount Doom to forge the New Ring after the Black Hand’s death.
The Black Hand’s 7-A would be specified as being ED. Sauron might scale through ED as well, depending if one were to interpret either the Black Hand being another form of Sauron or simply the latter being summoned by the Black Hand. Sauron also has thunderstorms in his final fight, so there’s that.
Supernatural Willpower and Mind Control Resistance
This is less of a revision and more of an explanation in regards to how Domination/Branding (aka mind control) resistance works, since the profiles never elaborate on them. Supernatural Willpower, in the context of the games, refers to how one can resist having their minds Dominated. The Uruks and Ologs themselves can even have a trait called Iron Will, an ability that effectively lets them fight off Talion’s Domination attempts. Not only that, they can also break out of Domination as seen with Bruz. Supernatural Willpower doesn’t just apply to the Uruks, it also extends to Talion. In the first game, Talion is able to overpower the Tower’s attempts of Domination, and in Shadow of War, Talion is able to stave off the corruption of Isildur’s Ring – which, if you’re familiar with LoTR, corrupts and brainwashes its wearers to becoming Sauron’s servants – for several decades. Tl;dr: In the game, having Supernatural Willpower can let you tank/resist mind control.
Besides Talion and the Uruks/Ologs, characters like Sauron, the Black Captains, and Carnan should have this ability. Sauron himself repels Celebrimbor’s Domination twice. The Hammer can straight up counter Talion’s Domination, and so the other Black Captains should reasonably scale to him. With Carnan, Act 2 Celebrimbor states that both he and Talion can’t defeat her – which by extension also suggests that they can’t Dominate her.
Updating/Revising Profiles
There’s only a couple of profiles that will be addressed. I’m gonna be working my way from the minor pages to the more important ones with the most changes.Graug
Besides having its tier 8-C+, the only thing that needs updating are its ability section and intelligence. The ability section should be split due to its keys and its elemental abilities should be specified as to what type of Graug it is. The intelligence puts it at “Average” despite there being no justification whatsoever, so it should be downgraded to Animalistic instead. The page should look like this.
Caragor
Now, I do think Caragors should be upgraded to 8-C. Other than being a threat to Talion, they can actually take down Graugs on their own as seen here. Granted, they die in a couple of hits and are evidently weaker, so they should downscale to Building level instead. Like the Graug profile, there's little to no justification on their intelligence, so it should be downgraded to Animalistic. The page should look like this.
The Nazgul
This isn’t Low-Godly, as the criteria states that you’d need to regenerate your body from a non-physical aspect of yourself, which the Nazgul doesn’t do as they only regen from their Rings. Still, based on the description, their regen should at least fall under High due to being able to fully reconstitute their physical form.
Certain abilities should be split for unique members, such as Isildur and Helm Hammerhand. Their page should look like this.
Looking at it, this also gives Talion's own immortality some nifty advantages, but we'll get to him in a sec.
EDIT: After a bit of discussion, the Ringwraiths should also share the same abilities pertaining to Talion's Domination and Wraith powers. As Talion still retains his old powers from Celebrimbor/New Ring while wearing Isildur's Ring, and that Eltariel also gains abilities identical to Talion's after obtaining the New Ring, it's reasonable to say that the Nazgul should also share some of these abilities, since they also have the power to Dominate.
Some supporting evidence:
Makes sense since, again, they can also Dominate minds the same way the New Ring/Celebrimbor can. So the new abilities that they will get are Extrasensory Perception, Talion's Shaming ability, inducing death to Branded targets, and slowing down time while in the Wraith World (See sandbox).
Eltariel
I don't think we're looking at EE here. At best, it seems to be just Deconstruction/Transmutation. Even then, her ability description mentions/suggests neither of these, with the closest description being enemies simply explode upon infusion. Though I am fine for it to be Deconstruction, since visually that's what it's portrayed as anyway.
Her ability section should also be split into her respective keys: Base Game/Without New Ring and Blade of Galadriel DLC/With New Ring. She gains a shit ton of abilities thanks to the New Ring, which is mostly just a 1:1 replica of Talion's own.
Although it's not finished yet, this is what her page should look like.
Talion
Now for the big man himself. His abilities are missing so much description that I'm surprised nobody had tried to rip it to shreds already. For this part, I'll specifically discuss two of his most important skill sets: His Immortality and Mind Manipulation.
So Talion can resurrect thanks to his bond with Celebrimbor, but the page doesn't elaborate upon as to how he resurrects. But thanks to in-game lore, we can get a good idea on how it works. Basically, Talion's immortality is comparable to the Nazgul's, who as we stated, can reform their physical bodies upon being defeated. This is thanks to the same lore entry which mentions this tidbit, as well as some decent showings that proves this. As seen here:
In essence, Talion can resurrect with a fully restored body after death, and he can keep doing so for as long as he is still tied to either Celebrimbor or the New Ring/Isildur's Ring. For supporting evidences, we see Talion resurrect from being impaled in the chest twice, with the wound being gone. Once from Eltariel (1:09:53 - 1:11:45) and the second time from Bruz. Pretty solid stuff. It's also true that Talion resurrects in either Barrows or Haedir Towers, but nothing states that he needs them in order to resurrect. Rather, they're just reliable places where he can resurrect at whenever and wherever.
The description would look like this:
Talion's mindhax is potent, in that it can bypass resistance against it and overriding already Dominated characters. This would, however, apply only to his Shadow of War Act 3 self.
Now, like what I've said earlier, Sauron's mindhax resistance lets him repel both Eltariel and Celebrimbor's Domination twice. But there is a statement which confirms that, if it had been Talion and Celebrimbor that fought Sauron, they would have succeeded in Dominating him. This statement comes from Shelob, who – in this game's setting – has precognitive abilities that let her accurately predict future events down to a tee. (i.e. Talion Dominating Isildur, and him becoming a Nazgul in the future)
Yes, we know that Uruks and Ologs can resist Talion's Domination. No, this doesn't make the above an anti-feat, nor is it that Uruk's Resistance > Sauron's. Talion also overrides Sauron's control over Isildur after Dominating him. So logically it just means that, prior to Act 3 of the story, Talion's Domination strength hasn't reached its apex yet, hency why Uruks are able to resist Domination by that point. And if we are to really take Shelob's statement at face value, it would also mean that it would have took both Talion and Celebrimbor in order to successfully Dominate Sauron, as Uruks can still resist it after Talion becomes a Ringwraith and loses Celebrimbor.
In a nutshell, Talion's Enhanced Mind Manipulation should strictly apply only to his Act 3 self. The description would look like this:
There are other changes and additions as well, but the sandbox has all of that covered. After the revision, Talion's page should look like this.
Uruk-Hai
The biggest problem I have for this one is that not only are the multiple keys unnecessarily bloat up the page, it also assumes that one Uruk has every single one of these abilities and strengths even though that's just not the case. Each Uruk has a unique skill set and weaknesses that makes it different from one another. An Uruk doesn't have more than two class types (i.e. a Commander can't be a Tank) and so do their Tribes (i.e. Machine Tribes can't simultaneously be a Mystic Tribe), and the profile doesn't make these distinctions clear enough. There's also the fact that the page neglects the fact that Uruks can have specific weaknesses - like fire, poison, ranged attacks, etc - which the profile leaves out.
It's nearly identical to a composite profile, since it merges all of their strengths and abilities into one profile despite clearly being distinct from one another.
The best solution for this is to reformat it into a civilization profile. The page would look like this.
There's a few additions I've made there that can be evaluated on, but here I'll elaborate as to why the Grunts get a possibly Building level rating. It's basically due to how the Grunts they can hurt and potentially kill Talion, then get stronger and get promoted as a result. The reason why it's not treated as just simple game mechanics is because of the way the Nemesis System works. To simplify, certain interactions and encounters that Talion makes with an Uruk is treated as actual events by the game: From Talion's followers potentially betraying him, his enemies cheating death after Talion defeats them, and most importantly, Talion becoming rivals with the Uruk/Olog who he fought with the most. This even carries to campaign missions, as whoever is Talion's biggest nemesis, he would need to beat them in order to progress the story.
The main point here is that - Since these encounters/interactions are acknowledged as real events that happen in both game and story, then Talion dying to a Grunt is also a potential possibility that can happen. Because after killing him, the same Grunt will grow stronger and become promoted. Hence why an Uruk/Olog Grunt killing Talion isn't just a mere game mechanic because of how the game treats it as an actual event that happens.
Not saying that the Grunts should outright scale to Talion, since they're still technically treated as fodder that the ranger easily kills in droves. It is why I propose giving them a possibly rating, which I believe is enough to warrant that given my previous points. They can also hunt down Caragors too, so take that if you will.
Conclusion
- The new tier for the verse will be 8-C+, scaling to Talion destroying monuments.
- Characters that resist Domination (mind manipulation) also gain Supernatural Willpower
- Updated/Revised Profiles
- Organizing the Graug's ability section + Downgrading intelligence to Animalistic
- Upgrading normal Caragors to 8-C due to downscaling from the Graugs + Downgrading intelligence to Animalistic
- Downgrading Nazgul's regen from Low-Godly to High + Organizing their ability section
- Removing Eltariel's Existence Erasure + Organizing her ability section
- Clarifying/Revising Talion's Immortality + Domination, and other added abilities
- Reformatting the Uruk's profile into a civilization page + giving Grunts a possibly 8-C rating from hurting and killing Talion + other added abilities
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