Shadow Nightmares AP Question

[PlozAlcachaz]

I was browsing some of the Zelda pages, and I noticed the one we have on the Shadow Nightmares.

"Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Kept the Wind Fish asleep. Turned into a copy of Ganon, and that was only their second strongest transformation. Was a legitimate threat to ALTTP Link)"

Part of their current AP description is that they kept the Wind Fish asleep until Link came. This is kind of weird given that we have the Wind Fish listed as 4-A currently. I looked on the upgrade thread for the Wind Fish, but I don't see a reason why they didn't scale other than just playing it safe for the upgrade. They have pretty consistently been scaled to the Wind Fish in the page history, so I'm confused as to why this shouldn't be transitive to now. I'm not sure if this constitutes a CRT since it's more of a minor revision to only Link and the Shadow Nightmares' articles. How should we fix this discrepancy?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it had something to do with it not scaling to Wind Fish's striking strength or durability. But Wind Fish is comparable to Ocean King and the Leviathan from Skyward Sword whom I forgot their name.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I think it had something to do with it not scaling to Wind Fish's striking strength or durability. But Wind Fish is comparable to Ocean King and the Leviathan from Skyward Sword whom I forgot their name.

Well, the Wind Fish survives the erasure of Koholint Island too IIRC. I'm a little confused as to why it wouldn't scale durability-wise, but I suppose I could understand the Striking Strength.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure if it's an explosion of some sort though; meaning there wouldn't be like this epic center and what not. And the dimension just hakais; not so much explodes. Which I don't think we can scale durability based on that.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Don't want to use other verses but I believe it's an accepted standard from what other verses rated, also does Wind Fish have any anti feats? I remember we treat creator deities as having their dura equal to their AP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, there are threads about stabilizing dimensions, and using EE to destroy a dimension wouldn't scale to durability. But using a Ki Blast or punching it would.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

That's why I wanted to downgrade the Wind Fish.
The Wind Fish's feat being an outlier, and being comparable to other Leviathans, still makes more sense to me.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

That's why I wanted to downgrade the Wind Fish.
The Wind Fish's feat being an outlier, and being comparable to other Leviathans, still makes more sense to me.

He has only like

one feat

It's literally impossible by definition for his feat to be an outlier.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

He has only like

one feat

It's literally impossible by definition for his feat to be an outlier.

It can be an outlier, since he should be comparable to other characters (the others leviathans) who all share solid Multi-continent level feats and scaling (which is not a coincidence).
Wind Fish being the only one with a feat well beyond the Multi-continent's range makes it an outlier.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It can be an outlier, since he should be comparable to other characters (the others leviathans) who all share solid Multi-continent level feats and scaling (which is not a coincidence).
Wind Fish being the only one with a feat well beyond the Multi-continent's range makes it an outlier.

That's a random assumption with no basis. Wind Fish is literally treated as a god and randomly assuming he should be comparable to other leviathan just cause he looks similar is like me saying Killin looks like a human so therefore he's 10-B. Show me actual feats that contradict Wind Fish himself not "oh well he's like this species".

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah, I don't see why the Wind Fish should be assumed to be on the same level as the other leviathans, there's no direct comparisons with their power or rank afaik so what's wrong with just saying he's way stronger than the others due to better feats. In regards to the Shadow Nightmares scaling, do we have anything concrete that actually scales them to the Wind Fish? I never understood why keeping him asleep was anything other than just sleep manipulation. Is there something in the game or any other material that says that they needed comparable power to the Wind Fish to keep him sleeping?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's no proof that other Leviathans are just as strong as Wind Fish. Wind Fish literally just has his own feat that doesn't scale to anyone. And Demise's own High 4-C feat doesn't debunk the possibility of his 4-A feat. Also, Ashencrow has been working hard digging for feats in which some of them actually looks quite promising.

And especially Wind Fish being a glass cannon doesn't contradict that he has 4-A levels of creation.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

That's a random assumption with no basis.

Yeah, yeah, disagree.
In every, and I am saying every Zelda game, expect for some cases who are explicity stated or shown to be different, the characters of the same race have similar strength.
Lynels have the same stregth if they're not of a different color (and the ones of the same color share similar strength), Good spirits share similar strength, the 4 Light spirits all show similar strength and have the same ranking.
The Leviathans are the same, you can't bring the Champions or Link as an example since they're stated numerous times to be exceptions of their race.
But what tells us that The Wind Fish Is different from the other Leviathans? It's like assuming that one of the Light Spirits is wayyy stronger than the others, it's like saying that one of the three dragons of Breath of The wild is wayy stronger than the other two.
It doesn't make sense, you should scale Levias and the Ocean King to the Wind Fish is you don't want to downplay the latter, but that wouldn't make sense with Link's rating.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Being the same race =/= same power level by default; that's never been a final standard. Same base power levels perhaps, but welcome to fiction. It's full of characters far superior to the rest of their own races; Zelda is no different. That's like saying Hylia should be Tier 2 by nature that she's a goddess like Din, Farore, or Nayru. Or that Majora, Demise, and Malladus should all be the same by nature that they're all demons.

Gorons and Zora have multiple characters much stronger than their own races. Sages for example, or the ancient Goron who defeated Volvagia.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Yeah, yeah, disagree.
In every, and I am saying every Zelda game, expect for some cases who are explicity stated or shown to be different, the characters of the same race have similar strength.
Lynels have the same stregth if they're not of a different color (and the ones of the same color share similar strength), Good spirits share similar strength, the 4 Light spirits all show similar strength and have the same ranking.
The Leviathans are the same, you can't bring the Champions or Link as an example since they're stated numerous times to be exceptions of their race.
But what tells us that The Wind Fish Is different from the other Leviathans? It's like assuming that one of the Light Spirits is wayyy stronger than the others, it's like saying that one of the three dragons of Breath of The wild is wayy stronger than the other two.
It doesn't make sense, you should scale Levias and the Ocean King to the Wind Fish is you don't want to downplay the latter, but that wouldn't make sense with Link's rating.

Characters of the same race have never been shown to have a similar strength, I don't think you'd say Darmani has similar strength to Gorons or Giant Gorons having similar strength or Warrior Zoras having similar strength to regular citizen Zoras. The 4 light spirits is a false equivalence as they have feats that show they have the same strength.
Darmani is never directly called superior to his race we just know it via the faets he has.
The fact that he's treated as a god, he can create a universe in his dream and erase it and that he has nightmares that can mimic ALTTP Ganon? A lot tell us. It's not like assuming the light spirits are way stronger then others because light spirits have actual feats and showings that show they're comparable to each other, same with the dragons.
You're using fallacious species scaling as a way to downgrade someone. Like, hell no.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

That's like saying Hylia should be Tier 2 by nature that she's a goddess like Din, Farore, or Nayru. Or that Majora, Demise, and Malladus should all be the same by nature that they're all demons.

Nope, you didn't get It.
Because Hylia is not part of the Golden triangle, Hylia is a goddess but not a Golden one, she's not part of their group.

Also Demise is not a normal demon, he's their king.

Wind Fish alongside the other Leviathans is a part of a group, they do the same thing and I don't even think that they are like hylians, gorons ect. who can become stronger with training.
The Wind Fish always sleeps, so he didn't train or anything and since characters of the same group share similar strength (the three Golden goddess are equal, the 4 light spirits are equal, dragons are equal in both SS and botw) Levias and the Ocean should scale to him or the feat being considered outlier.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Nope, you didn't get It.
Because Hylia is not part of the Golden triangle, Hylia is a goddess but not a Golden one, she's not part of their group.

Also Demise is not a normal demon, he's their king.

Wind Fish alongside the other Leviathans is a part of a group, they do the same thing and I don't even think that they are like hylians, gorons ect. who can become stronger with training.
The Wind Fish always sleeps, so he didn't train or anything and since characters of the same group share similar strength (the three Golden goddess are equal, the 4 light spirits are equal, dragons are equal in both SS and botw) Levias and the Ocean should scale to him or the feat being considered outlier.

This is repeating your point that already got explained fallacious. You need to prove Wind Fish is comparable in lore to the Leviathans.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

No, you have to prove he has a higher ranking than the others, but under Hylia.
So a proof in lore that he's under Hylia and above the others?
Because according to your points someone can even argue for Wind Fish > Hylia, because of feats.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You're the one who made the claim thus via burden of proof, the burden falls on you.

Hylia is the top dog Goddess second to the GGs which is why she's scaled above Wind Fish.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Hylia is literally the only Goddess who isn't one of the Golden Goddesses though. Majora actually does have the same tier as Demisee ATM given the RIP downgrade for Majora + low end feat for Demise. Malladus is also a "Demon King" so that point was kinda moot. Ghirahim is also a Demon and is High 4-C in his strongest key via being the Master Sword's counterpart.

The Leviathans actually don't do the same thing. Yes they are leviathans, but the Ocean King is the king of his own world when the other two aren't. He has the power to grant wishes, but he really doesn't have any of his own feats; he's just scaled from Bellum who's scaled from Base Link, who scaled from base Ganondorf who is above Twinrova who fought Mainline Master Sword Link. And Levias is where the High 6-A feat comes from yes. But none of them ever fought as a trio and Wind Fish never really fought period. He literally has his own powers that neither of the other two Leviathans do. Also you forgot Lord Jabu Jabu whose really only High 7-A scaling from the bombs as he was terrorized by Barinade, and Jabun who literally has 0 feats period are also both Leviathans. Would Jabu Jabu be High 6-A and then scale accordingly back to Young Link, King Dodongo, and Gohma and all that?

No, we don't just assume scaling based on being the same race alone. We use fight scenes and or characters fight if characters fight or perform feats in groups. Which the Leviathans don't.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Bump?

Anyway, Shadow Nightmares only keep the Wind Fish sleeping, they shouldn’t scale to him. And Wind Fish has no reason to scale to the other Leviathans, so it’s not an outlier.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Then what should happen is "Kept the Wind Fish asleep" should be removed from the AP section of their profile:

Shadow Nightmares

We were born of nightmares... To take over this world, we made the Wind Fish sleep endlessly! If the Wind Fish doesn't wake up, this island will never disappear! We would have been the masters of this place... But you had to come here and disrupt our plans! Heh heh! You can never defeat us...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yeah, I agree with the removal. I don’t see why it was even there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, that's not really an AP feat.