Sensory Manipulation

[Schnee_One]

This was always such a strange thing to me.

Shouldn't some forms of pain manipulation and sensory manipulation fall under mind manipulation? I'm not saying a person with mind resistance can't feel pain, however certain forms of pain manipulation make you feel pain based of something that doesn't exist, example being Yujiro Hanma's bends whip that forces you to feel so much pain that you would rather die then bear it, despite only suffering a minor gash.

Basically, this form of pain Manip tricks the brain into feeling more pain then there actually is.

So my question is, shouldn't forms of pain manipulation and sensory manipulation fall under a subset of mind manipulation?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Some yes, others no. Depends on the mechanics.

Pain Manipulation even lists Mind Manipulation as a type.

 

[Schnee_One]

Can you define that a bit? Like what types of pain Manip do or don't fall under mind manipulation

 

[DontTalkDT]

The kinds that directly manipulate the mind do and those that don't don't. I know, helpful.

Without details of how something works it is nearly impossible to tell whether someone is causing pain by manipulating the mind or by manipulating the nerves, though. Your whip example, for instance, could just as well work by manipulating the nerves.

 

[Antoniofer]

Pain Manipulation can be a subset of either Mind Manipulation or Sense Manipulation; and Sense Manipulation could be a subset of Biological Manipulation, Illusion Creation or Mind Manipulation. It depends of how the power works.

 

[Schnee_One]

I suppose that would make sense.

What about something that doesn't physically hit or damage, say Ikki Kurogane's phantom blade

 

[Antoniofer]

Without further explaination, just leave it as Pain Inducement.

 

[Schnee_One]

Which is.....? They have to fall under something

 

[Antoniofer]

Vague powers qualify just as the effect they perform, simply inducing pain qualify as Pain Inducement, however, if the explaination is something like "the slash casue a sensorial overload, drowning the target with pain" then is something between the words Pain Inducement via Sense Manipulation.

 

[Schnee_One]

No, they qualify as the effect and what basis they work on is decided

Also sense manipulation falls under mind manipulation as you're senses are controlled by your brain and are therefore forcing it to feel something that's not there.

We can't just not assume how something works because it's vague

 

[Antoniofer]

That's why I just suggested to put it as Pain Inducement (is just pain, with no damage or any other additional effect). Sense Manipulation also works by manipulating the nerves and that stuff, that is akin to Body manipulation (that is a subset of Biological Manipulation).

 

[Schnee_One]

Manipulating the nerves to cause pain is just body manipulation by itself, Pain Inducement is causing pain without damaging the body

My question is why does Pain inducement not fall under mind manipulation?

 

[Antoniofer]

Pain Manipulation is an effect-type power, it can be performed through several methods, be mental inducement, senses, poison, diseases, etc. It fall under Mind Manipulation, but it can also fall under Body (Nerves) Manipulation.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Pain inducement doesn't fall under anything by default, it's highly context dependent. If it's an rpg spell that "causes the opponent to feel pain without hurting them", or something, it's just pain manipulation without any other thing attached to it. If it's Darkseid's Agony Matrix which works by activating your pain receptors, it's sense/biology manipulation, or whatever manipulating the nerves falls under. If someone manipulates your esoteric mind, not necessarily the brain, to cause you to feel pain it's mind manipulation. And so on and so forth.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, I said Mind or Body Manipulation cuz it either affect the body (such nerves, caused by poison, etc.) or the mind (like illusion of pain), if its performed by a ki technique or by spell do not change nothing, as it only changes the cause of the power. Now, is possible that it may induce "pain in the spirit" (although it sounds more akin to Empathy Manipulationa), but that wouldn't be standard.

 

[Schnee_One]

Pain inducement doesn't fall under anything by default, it's highly context dependent. If it's an rpg spell that "causes the opponent to feel pain without hurting them", or something, it's just pain manipulation without any other thing attached to it. If it's Darkseid's Agony Matrix which works by activating your pain receptors, it's sense/biology manipulation, or whatever manipulating the nerves falls under. If someone manipulates your esoteric mind, not necessarily the brain, to cause you to feel pain it's mind manipulation. And so on and so forth.

See this is what I mean right here, I get what you mean but shouldn't pain manipulation that doesn't cause damage without any context be mind manipulation?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't see why it would honestly, especially if it's some kind of a magical spell. If the verse treats it as just "pain inducement" without anything being attached to it we should too. Unless of course we're given a reason to assume it's mind manipulation or something else.

 

[Schnee_One]

The reason I think is because Pain Manipulation that doesn't affect the nerves would naturally involve forcing the mind into feeling pain that isn't there

If you say, have a blade that doesn't physically hit you but makes you feel the pain of getting slashed, that would have to be mind manipulation

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Sensory Majipulation should be Perception Manipulation

 

[Antoniofer]

But we already have Sense Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation is basically the mix of Sense and Mind Manipulation.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

Most of the time you'd probably be right, but it's not always the case and it definitely shouldn't be a default assumption. Sometimes pain inducement is just pain inducement for no reason, this would mostly be the case in rpgs and not much else I imagine, but still a thing (might and magic comes to mind).

I'm assuming this example is Ikki's phantom thing right? If so, reading it's description on the profile, and from what I've seen Earl talk about, it's probably a form of mind manipulation, yeah. But this has an explanation attached to it so it wouldn't fit the above case where it would probably just be pain manip without anything else.

 

[Schnee_One]

The thing is what do we do for a default? Even if a person is mind resistant and their opponent has an ability to make them feel pain without affecting their nerves, do we just say they feel pain unless they directly resist it?

 

[Antoniofer]

To generalize, people will be able to resist if they have the endurance feats to do so; contruct, undead, brainlessness and mindless beings are generally considered immune. It may also be related to spiritual meditation and body supremacy, but is up to the debaters to decide that.