Sekiro Resurrection Downgrade

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Based on conversation in this thread.

Wolf's resurrection ability is often inflated in Versus threads. It is assumed that Wolf is capable of instantly resurrecting with a healed body regardless of how he was killed. This goes against the Resurrection page's instructions, which states:

"In many cases, self-resurrection may take too long to be combat applicable, but it still exists. The ability has similar limitations to Regenerationn, and one should not assume that, because a character has never failed to resurrect, that they can resurrect regardless of how they've been killed."

This is wrong due to a few reasons:

• 1- This is an inflation of abilities based on nothing but speculation against what is shown in gameplay. Even more curious, this speculation claims that the Sculptor's Idols outside the Dilapidated Temple are not canon, even though Sekiro's ability to teleport via. Homeward Idol is mentioned in his profile.
• 2- Wolf has an anti-feat of not being able to regenerate his arm. This is a clear indication that Sekiro's resurrection has limitations. If it is because his arm is physically 'blocked' by a wooden prosthetic, then it should be possible to physically 'block' the Regenerationn of Wolf's mutilated body.
• 3-This is the big one: Wolf's "True Death" and teleportation are canon and not just game mechanics, and have in-fact been shown in cutscene. When Wolf dies a true death and causes Dragonrot for the first time, a cutscene activates where Wolf is shown waking up all the way in the Dilapidated Temple. This proves that Wolf is rendered unconscious for what is likely at least a few hours every time he experiences true death (refuting the perpetual combat-applicable resurrection position), so... Wolf either has a stalker willing to carry his unconscious body from potentially the furthest reaches of Ashina to the Dilapidated Temple or to the last Sculptor's Idol Wolf rested at (The Divine Child warns Wolf that the Senpu Temple monks will try to capture him for experimentation, so the mysterious stalker must be strong enough to fend them off)... or Wolf simply teleported back to the Dilapidated Temple after his true death.

Proposal: Explain the limitation of Wolf's resurrection in the weakness section of his profile. Wolf being KO'd and BFR'd after successive deaths, or after severe mutilating injuries is very relevant for assessing his combat abilities. Wolf's ability to absorb the life force of the foes he kills should also be mentioned.

On a side note, Wolf should have Psychometry since he has retrocognition, and can access remnants of conversations other characters had in the past. Such as in here and here.

Wolf also has other names he is known as: "Loyal Wolf" and "Starving Wolf" (as a child).

The explanation I find more likely for why Wolf doesn't regrow his arm is that the Divine Dragon, the source of Wolf's immortality, is also missing his left arm, so due to karma/fate Wolf can't regenerate his left arm either.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Ask some staff.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"This is an inflation of abilities based on nothing but speculation against what is shown in gameplay."

The only times we actually see Wolf resurrect in gameplay are when he falls, then can stand back up in a second or two. Regardless of how he is killed. If you mean the fade-to-black stuff, that's more game mechanics than anything and his winding up back at shrines has zero foundation, to my knowledge, in any lore aspect of the game, and instead ostensibly exists purely to offer that Dark Souls difficulty (a mechanic I'm happy to allow existing, given that it makes the game more fun, but not one I'm going to acknowledge in terms of lore with zero basis). So already I am at odds with this.

"Wolf has an anti-feat of not being able to regenerate his arm."

True, but it is questionable as to whether or not Wolf actually could at the time. Wolf doesn't actually get Type 4 Immortality until after his time-travel fight with Butterfly, an event that happens after (from his point of view) he has already lost his arm. Meaning this anti-feat is extremely tenuous. It also doesn't help Wolf can Type 4 from being chopped to bits by Isshin's sword moves (among other things).

"This is the big one: Wolf's "True Death" and teleportation are canon and not just game mechanics, and have in-fact been shown in cutscene."

This doesn't prove anything really, though? We have no information other than in one instance he was indeed rendered unconscious versus innumerable times when you can just stand back up. The cutscene provides no context for this and instead just shows Wolf awakening somewhere else. What causes this? Nobody knows, and I don't think its within your means to viably defend this as a legitimate canonical entry that Wolf's Type 4 always requires him to wake up at the temple because it lacks explanation that was found in games like Bloodborne and Dark Souls.

 

[Elizhaa]

Personally, from reading the thread, I think Bambu's points on Resurrection and Immortality makes sense.

I think that Psychometry is fine; I do think that it is a good idea to have it listed as combat inapplicable since he does not look to do it in battle.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The only times we actually see Wolf resurrect in gameplay are when he falls, then can stand back up in a second or two. Regardless of how he is killed. If you mean the fade-to-black stuff, that's more game mechanics than anything and his winding up back at shrines has zero foundation, to my knowledge, in any lore aspect of the game, and instead ostensibly exists purely to offer that Dark Souls difficulty (a mechanic I'm happy to allow existing, given that it makes the game more fun, but not one I'm going to acknowledge in terms of lore with zero basis). So already I am at odds with this.

Yet, he can't stand back up in a second or two if his resurrection nodes are spent, or if the Palace Noble absorbs his life force.

Claiming that Wolf can keep jumping back up in a second or two after the screen goes black is 100% a speculation with zero foundation, which inflates his abilities against the wiki instruction on Resurrection.

Speculation that agrees with gameplay > speculation that goes against gameplay and inflates abilities against wiki instruction. You made it clear that the later is your preference, but can you elaborate on why the later should be taken?

Note that I argue that the proposal is actually canonically supported, even if it makes for a more reasonable and wiki-instruction compatible speculation on its own.

True, but it is questionable as to whether or not Wolf actually could at the time. Wolf doesn't actually get Type 4 Immortality until after his time-travel fight with Butterfly, an event that happens after (from his point of view) he has already lost his arm. Meaning this anti-feat is extremely tenuous. It also doesn't help Wolf can Type 4 from being chopped to bits by Isshin's sword moves (among other things).

This is false; Wolf can resurrect from the beginning of the game, before and after losing his arm. Wolf starts the game with amnesia regarding the Hirata Estate incident, which he was involved in three years ago. During this incident Wolf died, and Kuro performed the Immortal Oath by giving him his blood. This is how Wolf gains his immortality and the power of the Dragon Heritage. It is explained through the vision after Wolf defeats Lady Butterfly.

Wolf can resurrect in-game and discover his resurrection ability as soon as he receives his prosthetic arm (Genichiro left him to bleed, but he didn't die). It is possible to finish the game without accessing the Hirata Estate even.

There is no evidence of time travel; the Hirata Estate level is described as a "memory". Wolf can bring items and interact with the world, so the obvious explanation is that the Kind-Faced Buddha constructed a pocket reality of the Hirata Estate incident according to Wolf's memory the first time, and then constructed the Hirata Estate incident according to Owl's memory the second the time.

We don't see Wolf (who has superhuman physical characteristics) get chopped to bits by Isshin. Wolf's Regenerationn feats are limited and he has an anti-feat to boot.

This doesn't prove anything really, though? We have no information other than in one instance he was indeed rendered unconscious versus innumerable times when you can just stand back up. The cutscene provides no context for this and instead just shows Wolf awakening somewhere else. What causes this? Nobody knows, and I don't think its within your means to viably defend this as a legitimate canonical entry that Wolf's Type 4 always requires him to wake up at the temple because it lacks explanation that was found in games like Bloodborne and Dark Souls.

Why ignore the information? We do have it:

• 1- The cutscene is based on Wolf having true death, in which Wolf fails to "just stand back up" and the screen goes black.
• 2- Wolf caused Dragonrot to the Sculptor, in which Wolf's dragon blood stagnated and stole the Sculptor's life force.

This is a choice between two explanations: either there is a mysterious stalker who carried Wolf's corpse to the temple, or Wolf simply teleported as implied by gameplay mechanic. The former is absurd and convoluted, and I would like you to name that mysterious stalker. A straightforward argument (either A or B; not A; therefore B). If you believe there is a third explanation, then propose it.

By chance, do you also believe mention of Homeward Idol should be removed from Wolf's profile?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Yet, he can't stand back up in a second or two if his resurrection nodes are spent, or if the Palace Noble absorbs his life force."

If we take life-force as something rather like a soul then I hardly see the issue (I'm not suggesting we do, merely offering an interpretation that is common). The Palace Noble negging Type 4 isn't an anti-feat, its an ability on their side since nobody else displays this trait. I don't know of any lore propping up resurrection nodes either, it's just a mechanic to block infinite res.

"Claiming that Wolf can keep jumping back up in a second or two after the screen goes black is 100% a speculation with zero foundation, which inflates his abilities against the wiki instruction on Resurrection."

Firstly, you are mistaken in believing the wiki has rules on how quickly you can use resurrection. It doesn't. Secondly, it isn't speculation when we see him do it in all but one or two specific scenarios, regardless of bodily damage. Dunno what to tell you.

"Speculation that agrees with gameplay > speculation that goes against gameplay and inflates abilities against wiki instruction. You made it clear that the later is your preference, but can you elaborate on why the later should be taken?"

This isn't speculation at all, you can see that 95% of the game Wolf can just stand back up before the enemy has even meandered away if his res is ready. Again, I don't know what to tell you, that's just fairly basic knowledge of the game. Furthermore I don't appreciate the loaded question here, where if I elaborate for you, you take it as me accepting I approve of speculation that goes against gameplay. I don't, that's just not the situation at all.

"This is false; Wolf can resurrect from the beginning of the game, before and after losing his arm. Wolf starts the game with amnesia regarding the Hirata Estate incident, which he was involved in three years ago. During this incident Wolf died, and Kuro performed the Immortal Oath by giving him his blood. This is how Wolf gains his immortality and the power of the Dragon Heritage. It is explained through the vision after Wolf defeats Lady Butterfly."

First off, strawman. I didn't say he couldn't resurrect from the start of the game, only that it isn't really supported by lore. The gameplay's very own story shows Wolf traveling back in time and then receiving it in a cutscene. So by no lore means does he have it before then outside of a purely mechanical sense, and it's very reasonable to not die before reaching Butterfly anyways, meaning it isn't unreasonable to take this as purely a game mechanic. Wolf doesn't start the game with amnesia, he literally has the shinobi prosthetic when he goes in and does the job. It isn't a vision, it's legitimate time travel and there is nothing to support your explanation of events.

"Wolf can resurrect in-game and discover his resurrection ability as soon as he receives his prosthetic arm (Genichiro left him to bleed, but he didn't die). It is possible to finish the game without accessing the Hirata Estate even."

It is 100% plausible Wolf just wouldn't die from bleeding, it would be serious, absolutely, but there's no concrete evidence that Genichiro killed him at the start of the game, only removed his arm. And yes, it is possible to beat the game without accessing it, but you must admit the cutscene contributing to the story element makes it glaringly unlikely that it was intended story-wise to be skipped.

"There is no evidence of time travel; the Hirata Estate level is described as a "memory". Wolf can bring items and interact with the world, so the obvious explanation is that the Kind-Faced Buddha constructed a pocket reality of the Hirata Estate incident according to Wolf's memory the first time, and then constructed the Hirata Estate incident according to Owl's memory the second the time."

It may well be a memory, but it isn't Wolf's since he just doesn't remember it. What supports time travel is him being in a place explicitly in the past with possessions of the present, most notably the shinobi prosthetic that shows even in cutscenes. Again, the pocket reality thing is both unsupported and purely speculation on your behalf. Nor would I call this obvious- this takes several hand-waves to even accept as possible, much less concrete.

"We don't see Wolf (who has superhuman physical characteristics) get chopped to bits by Isshin. Wolf's Regenerationn feats are limited and he has an anti-feat to boot."

I... don't know what you're trying to get at with the superhuman physical characteristics bit if I'm honest. Everyone and their mother has Superhuman Physical Characteristics, who cares. We also aren't discussing Regenerationn. As for Isshin, we actually do, via the Ashina Cross technique he himself penned. It even states it is capable of chopping up enemies ("Draws a cruciform cut in the blink of an eye; so fast it could sever the arm of Shura, or so boasts Isshin Ashina.") and all we see are slashes quite literally straight through targets. The player model being unchanged is a limitation of the game itself, not a sign of the sword not actually traveling straight through an enemy when that's what is visually shown in all ways save for a dilapidated player model (which is a very rare thing in video games anyways).

"This is a choice between two explanations: either there is a mysterious stalker who carried Wolf's corpse to the temple, or Wolf simply teleported as implied by gameplay mechanic. The former is absurd and convoluted, and I would like you to name that mysterious stalker. A straightforward argument (either A or B; not A; therefore B). If you believe there is a third explanation, then propose it."

Is true death even acknowledged anywhere in lore? I can't seem to recall it, rather it just generally says dying causes dragonrot. I also agree with B, again I feel as though you have missed my point. Wolf's appearance at shrines and the like is entirely game mechanics, as there is no lore supporting it. I've said this and proposing I said otherwise is just outright incorrect. That does not counteract my points in the slightest, though.

"By chance, do you also believe mention of Homeward Idol should be removed from Wolf's profile?"

Not at all, why would it? Here is an item that has a description mentioning its explicit function. Why would it need removed?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Just a question but has wolf ever regenerated when he resurrects?

If he has, what's the highest Regenerationn shown?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just a question but has wolf ever regenerated when he resurrects?
If he has, what's the highest Regenerationn shown?

Like I mentioned in my post above, there's an Ashina technique that just slashes through basically your whole body. So I guess you could argue Mid? But he doesn't really have regen, what made him dead just sort of goes away and then he's just back to life. regen and type 4 are two separate things and I won't be arguing for mid regen any time soon.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The point was that he gets cut to little pieces and he resurrects, now what? His whole body heals back or he stays as a bunch of little wolf pieces?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The point was that he gets cut to little pieces and he resurrects, now what? His whole body heals back or he stays as a bunch of little wolf pieces?

He just sort of gets back up via Type 4.

 

[DarkGrath]

Isn't there like, a cutscene when you start inflicting dragonrot on the world and then you're given an entire separate quest line?

This honestly does call into question Infinite Resurrection. It's stated by the game and in dialogue that Wolf only inflicts dragonrot in the world when he experiences true death, and that it isn't inflicted when he normally resurrects And as you die and inflict dragonrot more, you can even physically find people who have been inflicted by it (which is how you complete the quest to cure it in the first place).

I'm not sure about everything, but I honestly have to agree with the OP regarding this point. There is a metric ton of dialogue and clarification regarding dragonrot, and by proxy, how Wolf can die truly and continue inflicting it on the world and an entire questline dedicated to it. We can't really pass all of this off as just game mechanics, and because it's established heavily that dragonrot isn't inflicted if he resurrects, for dragonrot to spread he would have to be capable of truely dying. Dragonrot is 100% a canonical thing, which according to the lore is spread when one with the power of resurrection truly dies and is forced to "respawn", and so by-proxy Wolf's true death must be canonical.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

He just sort of gets back up via Type 4.

Can I get a scan or clip of him doing that? Been cut to little pieces and then getting all back thanks yo ress

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I don't know of any lore propping up resurrection nodes either, it's just a mechanic to block infinite res.

It is acknowledged by lore. When giving Kuro the Sakura Droplet to unlock the third resurrection node, he remarks that this will assist Wolf and make his resurrection power stronger.

"When the Undying Pledge of the Dragon's Heritage is broken... It's said that this remains in place of the oath. Do you think this one was left behind by Lord Takeru? ... Wolf, if you so desire... I can use this sakura droplet to assist you. ... Lord Takeru's dragon blood... Lives on with you ... That was a boon granted by Lord Takeru. Use it well."
	~ Kuro, the Divine Heir​

Resurrection nodes are also mentioned in the Jizo statue description.

Firstly, you are mistaken in believing the wiki has rules on how quickly you can use resurrection. It doesn't. Secondly, it isn't speculation when we see him do it in all but one or two specific scenarios, regardless of bodily damage. Dunno what to tell you.

It isn't about "how quickly a character can use resurrection", it is about "how much evidence you need before you can claim a character can quickly use resurrection". As I have quoted in the original post, there is a rule for that:

"In many cases, self-resurrection may take too long to be combat applicable, but it still exists. The ability has similar limitations to Regenerationn, and one should not assume that, because a character has never failed to resurrect, that they can resurrect regardless of how they've been killed."
	~ Resurrection​

Extreme bodily damage have never been demonstrated (will be discussed below).

This isn't speculation at all, you can see that 95% of the game Wolf can just stand back up before the enemy has even meandered away if his res is ready. Again, I don't know what to tell you, that's just fairly basic knowledge of the game. Furthermore I don't appreciate the loaded question here, where if I elaborate for you, you take it as me accepting I approve of speculation that goes against gameplay. I don't, that's just not the situation at all.

Currently in Versus threads, "if his res is ready" part is more often than not completely ignored, which goes against gameplay. If we are weighting in between two mere speculations, we should lean in on the one that agrees with gameplay and avoids a no limit fallacy.

First off, strawman. I didn't say he couldn't resurrect from the start of the game, only that it isn't really supported by lore. The gameplay's very own story shows Wolf traveling back in time and then receiving it in a cutscene. So by no lore means does he have it before then outside of a purely mechanical sense, and it's very reasonable to not die before reaching Butterfly anyways, meaning it isn't unreasonable to take this as purely a game mechanic. Wolf doesn't start the game with amnesia, he literally has the shinobi prosthetic when he goes in and does the job. It isn't a vision, it's legitimate time travel and there is nothing to support your explanation of events.

It is 100% supported by lore, since it is confirmed that Wolf gained his Dragon Heritage powers before the beginning of the game.

By lore, Wolf only dies again and discovers that he has his resurrection power after Genichiro takes away Kuro, which is why there is a reset on events after death in the beginning of the game. The story could have been different if Wolf learned about his power earlier with Kuro by his side.

Deaths to some bosses can also involve resets and repeating cutscenes, since Sekiro shouldn't lose to them by lore (such as with Genichiro and Isshin wielding a Mortal Blade, which would permanently kill Wolf).

Also, I am confident that the majority of first-time players died before they defeat Lady Butterfly (and several bosses before her), and have experienced the resurrection mechanic early on in the game. How? How could you consider this "very reasonable"?

And yes, Wolf does start the game with amnesia. For instance, this is a conversation with Anayama the Peddler:

Anayama: Ah... I know you. Yeah... You're that good sir, Shinobi, sir! I haven't seen you since, well, since that night. Wolf: What night? Anayama: ... Hmm? You don't remember? Wolf: No. Anayama: Oh. I see... You don't remember... Hmm... Listen, sir. You and I, we've met before. I was a thief back then. But those days are behind me!

Wolf (and other people) 'experiences a memory' by offering an item with significant past to the buddha; there is no mention of time travel anywhere.

It is 100% plausible Wolf just wouldn't die from bleeding, it would be serious, absolutely, but there's no concrete evidence that Genichiro killed him at the start of the game, only removed his arm. And yes, it is possible to beat the game without accessing it, but you must admit the cutscene contributing to the story element makes it glaringly unlikely that it was intended story-wise to be skipped.

We are not in disagreement that Wolf did not die when he had his arm chopped off.

To experience the full story and get all the items the Hirata Estate should be completed. To complete three of the four ending and routes for the story, the Hirata Estate need not be visited.

It may well be a memory, but it isn't Wolf's since he just doesn't remember it. What supports time travel is him being in a place explicitly in the past with possessions of the present, most notably the shinobi prosthetic that shows even in cutscenes. Again, the pocket reality thing is both unsupported and purely speculation on your behalf. Nor would I call this obvious- this takes several hand-waves to even accept as possible, much less concrete.

It IS a memory, I am not purposing a theory about what it is, I am just describing what it is per Sekiro canon. For instance, this is a conversation with Emma regarding visiting the Hirata Estate:

Emma: ... Here. (Gives Father's Bell Charm) Wolf: Is this a bell...? Emma: It fell off Owl's dead body, if I'm not mistaken. You and Master Owl have a deep connection... Should you offer it to Buddha, it may be a different experience than the one you had before. Wolf: ... I will try it. Emma: I am not sure what memories you will see... But the bell belonged to Master Owl. So please, take care... ... Emma: You've come back from an old memory, I see. Wolf: I have. But I haven't seen everything yet. Emma: I understand. Please, be careful...

The pocket reality explanation is minimalist and agrees with lore and gameplay. You are proposing a convoluted timeloop where Sekiro needs to go to the past and die there in front of Kuro before he can get his resurrection powers, so I'd say this requires an order of magnitude more hand-waving.

I... don't know what you're trying to get at with the superhuman physical characteristics bit if I'm honest. Everyone and their mother has Superhuman Physical Characteristics, who cares. We also aren't discussing Regenerationn. As for Isshin, we actually do, via the Ashina Cross technique he himself penned. It even states it is capable of chopping up enemies ("Draws a cruciform cut in the blink of an eye; so fast it could sever the arm of Shura, or so boasts Isshin Ashina.") and all we see are slashes quite literally straight through targets. The player model being unchanged is a limitation of the game itself, not a sign of the sword not actually traveling straight through an enemy when that's what is visually shown in all ways save for a dilapidated player model (which is a very rare thing in video games anyways).

Just because an attack would turn a normal human to paste, this doesn't mean that it will turn a game or fictional character to paste.

The description of the Ashina Cross technique is a reference to Isshin cutting the arm of Orangutan (Aka. The Sculptor). Just because an attack is capable of cutting limbs, this doesn't mean that it will. The attack can be survived or dodged for example. Isshin Ashina has a profile; should we give him Low-Mid Regenerationn because he can survive the Ashina Cross technique performed by Wolf (Isshin can even survive Ichimonji: Double, and the two heavy slashes visibly goes through his body!)?

Using this logic, we can give a ridiculous amount of video game characters intangibility or Mid Regenerationn because melee or AoE attacks visibly clips through them in gameplay. This is a bad argument.

Is true death even acknowledged anywhere in lore? I can't seem to recall it, rather it just generally says dying causes dragonrot. I also agree with B, again I feel as though you have missed my point. Wolf's appearance at shrines and the like is entirely game mechanics, as there is no lore supporting it. I've said this and proposing I said otherwise is just outright incorrect. That does not counteract my points in the slightest, though.

It is acknowledged by lore since resurrection nodes are acknowledged. There is also Emma's statement that the power of the Dragon Heritage is limited, and if Wolf attempts to resurrect after it is overused then it will absorb the life force of an other and cause Dragonrot (Dragonrot can only happen after true death).

Emma: The blood has only a limited amount of power available to it. Let's say you've used all of this power... and then you attempt to resurrect again. The resurrection still occurs, but... It must draw on power from another source.

The cutscene is the beginning of an entire side-quest, and it requires Wolf being unconscious after death and transported after death to the Dilapidated Temple. We can't hand-wave this away as gameplay mechanics since it is part of the story. This is a result of what happens when the screen fades to black after death.

Not at all, why would it? Here is an item that has a description mentioning its explicit function. Why would it need removed?

This means that the Sculptor's Idols (including the ones in Fountainhead Palace, which Orangutan had no access to) exist, and that they have mystical power, so teleporting between statues or returning to the statue after death is not far-fetched in lore.

Furthermore, the resurrection nodes (which limits combat-applicable resurrection) are mentioned in item descriptions.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

oh, this

That's quite a wall so forgive me if I don't direct quote, I'll just cover the basics since my dear boy Ovens didn't even bother to show up

Resurrection nodes are fine, yes, cool. I'm aware of how Dragonrot works, I just don't see how that actually supports you. It requiring the blood of another does not equal "it makes you sit through a loading screen and appear randomly elsewhere". This is the bit in particular I hold issue with since you have extrapolated that idea from completely unrelated statements (e.g., dragonrot).

Your argument about the memory isn't really a counter to what I said. It is a memory to some, but Wolf is physically there. So the point is moot without further information.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Just almost finished the game (**** you Isshin) and gonna point out that Ashina Cross chops one to pieces and Sekiro can res from it

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm a bit confused on Regenerationn in particular. Wolf can survive Ashina Cross, right? That indicates that, if it's able to chop him to pieces, that Wolf just regenerates from it. But then, a massive point in the story is that Wolf lost his arm after it was cut off.

So how do we treat this? Do we treat surviving Ashina Cross as a game mechanic? Do we consider Wolf losing his arm permanently to be PIS?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Ashina Cross description is that "it's so powerful that it can cut Shura's arm off"

 

[DarkGrath]

If it needs to be "so powerful" to do that, then that would imply that a normal attack would be incapable of it. So would that be some kind of regen negation then?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Oh wait, it's "so fast", sry

Anyway Sekiro can tank all of this and res, him not being chopped during fight might be just game mechanics

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just almost finished the game (**** you Isshin) and gonna point out that Ashina Cross chops one to pieces and Sekiro can res from it

Yeah I already talked about this move in particular.

I would say his model not being actively damaged is game mechanics considering that's pretty high-end and would **** up the game a lot regardless.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

If Genichiro can so easily chop his arm off why even entertain the idea of him not being severely damaged by the other bosses? Some of them one-shot you. Like the attacks don't effect the model and getting hit by the mortal blade does not perma-end the game, blatant game mechanics.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The Ashina Cross logic doesn't really follow. Just because it is strong enough to chop the limb of the Sculptor when he was a shinobi going Shura, it doesn't mean it can chop the limb of Wolf.

End-game Wolf >> Peak Sculptor.

The Dragonrot statement was supporting evidence for the existence of resurrection node, I did not extrapolate anything beyond that.

The evidence that Wolf legitimetly loses consciousness and most likely teleports after true death is the cutscene of the first Dragonrot, where he wakes up in the Dilapidated Temple after death, indicating he teleported like in gameplay or that someone carried his unconscious body. Either way, resurrection would not be combat applicable after the resurrection nodes are used up.

I did not disagree that Wolf was physically in the Hirata Estate, which is why I said that a pocket reality is constructed from the memories. But claiming multiple dimensions or time travel would be unwarranted assumptions.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

The desciption says it can chop Shura's arm off not that it cut the sculptor's arm off. I may be mistaken but the sculptor was not yet Shura when he lost an arm to Isshin. Also I can't bring myself for a second to believe that the final, strongest and hardest boss is so much weaker than Wolf that he can't chop his arm off.

Also can you link the cutscene, I'm not quite sure what you're reffering to.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Isshin defined Shura as someone who went mad and bloodlusted.

"Those who go on killing will eventually become Shura. They don't even remember why... Simply enraptured... They kill solely for the joy it brings them."
	~ Isshi​

There is no indication that Isshin is aware that a Shura can literally transform into a giant demon, nor did Isshin encounter a demon to our knowledge in order to make an informed evaluation.

This is the cutscene, which was already linked in the OP: https://youtu.be/3JsE9tIvreo

It happens after a true death that causes Dragonrot for the first time. This shows that Wolf loses consciousness when the screen fades to black (and that Wolf probably teleports after true death).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Isshin defined Shura as someone who went mad and bloodlusted.

That's wrong though. Like clearly Wolf can type 4 back from severe bodily damage since the cross visibly cuts through him, I think that's pretty hard to argue against, but he doesn't "define" it like that at all. Example:

"The grocery store is two blocks down the road on the left."

I didn't define all grocery stores as a place two blocks down the road on the left just now. I just said how to get there. Same deal here, Isshin just tells you how you become Shura.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Sounds like a reach to me; it makes more sense that he was boasting about amputating the Sculptor. Plenty of attacks (including combat arts) clips through enemies without implying bisection, and Wolf being hit with the Ashina Cross (which can be tanked without dying) is not canon since he can dodge or block it.

But to compromise: How about we have this sentence in Wolf's weakness section:

Dying repeatedly causes the spread of a disease known as Dragonrot that afflicts those he associates with, and might cause him to lose consciousness for some time.

Which should reflect both the resurrection nodes and the cutscene where Wolf is unconscious in the Dilapidated Temple after death.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It isn't a reach at all given he just says Shura. The sculptor isn't the only Shura. Nor is that what I was arguing anyways.

We acknowledge Dragonrot on the profile already though it isn't so much a weakness to Wolf himself as those around him (including his allies). I can agree that he can fall unconscious after death, sure, but not for any significant amount of time.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

We know he cut the arm of the Sculptor who was on the edge of going Shura. Whether he cut the arm of a Shura who completed a transformation into a literal demon is speculative at best.

The Dragonrot part is already part of Wolf's profile, I just added to it, I guess it can be considered something undesirable for Wolf. There is one cutscene that shows the aftermath of dying after using up the resurrection nodes, so that is all the sample we have, and thus we can't conclude that it doesn't happen frequently (especially with the gameplay implying it does). Even if it doesn't happen frequently, it warrants a mention, which is why I worded it as something that might happen instead of something that definetly will.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the conclusions here?

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I don't really see a conclusion but...

ShadowWhoWalks and Mr.Bambu are arguing over what the description of the "Ashina Cross" means. Shadow claims it means that it just slashed the sculptors arm off and can't actually bisect Wolf or it cutting through him isn't canon and just gameplay while Bambu says that because it simply states "Shura" it can easily refer to the Demon of Hatred, also claims the attack clipping through the model indicated it cut through him fully. Needless to say this all pertains to his "regen" (resurrection really).

There's also dispute over wheter or not Wolf is limited to the three in game resurrection and has to return to an idol or if he can just keep going without them. Something about dragon rot I didn't catch too, sorry. They were also going about the Hirata Estate, they seem to agree that he was physically there but I don't think they meet eye to eye on how and what it implies for his abilities.

Think that's about it, sorry if I missed something, not too good at these things.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Why is there even Demon of Hatred's profile if there's the same on Sculptor's profile

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Didn't even know that profile existed, it's not linked on the Sekiro page, the Sculptor that is. They should probably be fused, yeah.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There's also dispute over wheter or not Wolf is limited to the three in game resurrection and has to return to an idol or if he can just keep going without them. Something about dragon rot I didn't catch too, sorry. They were also going about the Hirata Estate, they seem to agree that he was physically there but I don't think they meet eye to eye on how and what it implies for his abilities.

Regarding this: myself and Shadow don't agree on what that area really was. In-game it was referred to as a memory a couple times, which Shadow takes to mean a literal mental space that Wolf went to that he had previously just forgotten. I take it as time travel since Wolf doesn't remember said memory and he uses physical, real things within said memory and can transport them out. This point is in contention largely due to the purposefully vague storytelling of the game and probably can't be concretely resolved.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I don't believe the Hirata Estate memory to be a mental space within a person's mind; I believe it to be a physical pocket reality constructed based on Wolf/Owl's memories.

I found a dialogue where the Schulptor elaborate on the nature of the memory:

Sculptor: ... So you're back. Wolf: Was that... a dream...? Or was it real? Sculptor: Hmm... Whether it was a dream or it was reality... I have no idea. There is one thing I can tell you... The Great Buddha has seen fit to awaken old memories within you. What you felt, what you remembered... That is what it all depends upon. I'm not sure if what I saw is what truly happened... That's how it works.

So according to the Sculptor, the events being depicted by the Kind-Faced Buddha depends on how the person remembers them regardless if they are true or not. Which is much more in line with a pocket reality than time travel.

Yeah, the Demon of Hatred page is a weird duplicate that should be deleted, since the Sculptor already has a Demon of Hatred key.

I would find it sufficiently accurate if this line was added to the weakness, since there is a cutscene where this happens (the first Dragonrot cutscene):

Dying repeatedly ... might cause him to lose consciousness for some time.

Objections/Support?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not sure we can concretely support your idea via that quote (I was of course aware of it). He repeatedly says he doesn't know traits of it and nor does it mention anything about pocket realities. All he says is...

1. He doesn't know if it was real or not.

2. The Buddha awoke memories.

3. The experience in the dream/memory/etc relies on said memories.

4. He doesn't know if that is what truly happened.

Regarding demon of hatred: iffy on that but not really gonna argue it too hard.

Like I said, I'm fine with that, since Wolf was admittedly unconscious.

 

[Antvasima]

If this is handled in a too vague manner to be resolved, maybe you can mention this within the profile in an "either... or..." manner?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It could be handled in such a way, yes, though I'm not certain that dispels the issue. The core problem is what it means to his Immortality. Basically, if we take this as a memory, then Wolf had his Type 4 at the time of his initial fight with Genichiro and he lost his arm regardless. If we take it as a question of time, then he only got his Type 4 after having lost his arm.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would a "possibly..." work instead then?