DimeUhDozen
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- Both are 9-A.
- Both are bloodlusted
The Snatcher:
Incon:
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Scratch Vs The Snatcher (Grace)
- Thread starter DimeUhDozen
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The Snatcher:
Incon:
DimeUhDozen
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DimeUhDozen
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He'd usually start with fear or possession, but since Snatcher is a ghost himself, he probably wouldn't think to do either. He'd probably just go in for shapeshifting-assisted hits.
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Snatcher starts out with spamming beacons and plenty of other Danmaku stuff but the moment he realizes that those aren't doing anything to Scratch due to his greater Durability and Regen, he'll start trying his Hax out on him.
Death and BFR won't do anything to Stratch cause of his resistance to Death Hax and Dimensional Travel although i'm unsure how his Ghost Portal Creation would interact with Snatcher's way of BFR which is through Pocket Reality Manipulation, Reality Warping and Spatial Manipulation. and Pain Hax seems like his best bet at harming him.
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DimeUhDozen
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By that point, I think Scratch would pull out his Curse Manipulation. These can range from setting up certain conditions that the afflicted must follow, like being unable to be separated from each other, forced to be unable to say "yes" or "no", or having their luck removed. Since this is one of Scratch's first showings of power to Molly after he becomes aware that he can't scare her, I don't think it would be out of the question for him to use it.
And I think since Scratch's ghost portals are able to travel between the ghost realm and back, he shouldn't have any problem using them to travel between Snatcher's pocket dimension and the battlefield.
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all of Snatcher's hax take a single thought and given Scratch is a ghost he'll likely remove trying to Death Hax already leaving BFR which Scratch comes back from
leaving Snatcher to just start Pain haxing him with a thought, his Pain Hax is potent enough to Kill Hat Kid at her peak in a matter of seconds. setting a Curse on Snatcher wouldn't really stop him from just pain haxing him to death.
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Would Snatcher's pain hax work on a ghost?
DimeUhDozen
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Scratch can't die, unlike Hat Kid though. He's a ghost, he's already dead. He can certainly tire him out and damage him, but I don't think it would do anything to specifically kill him. I think Snatcher definitely has ways of taking his soul, but I think Scratch can pull off the curse before that can happen.
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if he can tire out then that Pain Hax is gonna be incredibly hard to overcome since it'll basically shut him down leaving him to just feel that pain constantly, his curse thing seems to require speaking well Snatcher's requires a thought, so he could just shut him down by pain haxing.
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the Snatcher can still feel things so I wouldn't see why he wouldn't try pain hax on another ghost since unlike Death hax it may work which in this case it would.
DimeUhDozen
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Like you said, Snatcher would probably lead with his attacks like a straight up fight since he is able to be damaged, then go to death and BFR haxes. Meanwhile, Scratch with the knowledge that he's also a ghost, would already know not to lead with fear and Ghost Realm BFR. He's way more likely to start with curse manip more than he would with Death hax. And the pain manip seems to affect Hat Kid's dura. Scratch already has a lead on Snatcher with his durability, so I think he can hold on long enough to cast his curses.
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Snatcher leads with regular attacks but Scratch's regen and higher durability make those pointless so he wouldn't continue using them thats what I said, he wouldn't try Death Hax cause Scratch is a ghost, he would try BFR but Scratch just comes back leaving him to get pain haxed constantly and Snatcher is gonna be prepared for this thanks to his Telepathy which he could use to keep a watch on Scratch once hes BFR'd. Snatcher's pain hax affected Hat Kid at her peak which is 4-A if we are talking about durability then Scratch's durability advantage isn't doing anything towards the Pain Hax which already ignores Durability anyway.
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Could the two even defeat each other normally? Both are immortal characters without abilities that circumvent immortality unless they resort to getting creative with curses and contracts. At the point where they would resort to that, the result would be unclear, so voting for the matchup to be inconclusive is probably the best vote.
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Snatcher doesn't require contracts to use any of his hax, those are for blackmail that he uses to get people to do his unwanted jobs. Snatcher doesn't have to kill Scratch since he can clearly tire out unlike Snatcher so Pain Hax is gonna be super potent in that regard, it may not kill him but it'll basically shut him down.
DimeUhDozen
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He'd have to first learn that Scratch can regenerate which requires him to be able to break him down to a point where he can regenerate. Scratch meanwhile already has info on how the ghosts in his universe work and he knows they can be affected by curses. The previous hax are done in moments where Scratch is either taking his time to scare Molly or being playful on a bet with his friends. In a moment where there are actual stakes like in this scene, if we cut out Molly and Libby's joke conversation for the sake of comedy, it takes seven seconds for the curse to kick in. Whilst Snatcher's pain manip takes around five seconds to kick in. Seeing as how Scratch leads with his curse quicker than Snatcher's pain manip, I'd have to give it to him.
Scratch uses a curse in the first episode, so I don't think it'd be ooc for him to use.
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The Pain Hax didn't take 5 seconds to kick in, the first 5 are the guy inputting things that would instigate Snatcher to immediately Pain hax which is when the game detects cheating in Death Wish, the Pain Hax is done with a thought taking no amount of time.
Snatcher's attacks have massive AOE that would engulf Scratch thanks to Danmaku, I don't see how Snatcher wouldn't see his Regen nor his greater durability compared to him that wouldn't instigate Snatcher to start haxing, the Curse takes 7 seconds well Snatcher's stuff requires mere thoughts and thats giving Scratch the benefit of the doubt that'd he'd even know what to curse Snatcher with since he has no knowledge that Snatcher can just use telepathy and Pain Hax him if the Curse doesn't shut those down. i'm placing my vote on the Snatcher his way of ending the fight is far quicker
DimeUhDozen
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Scratch still has the higher reaction time and can simply teleport out of the way. He won't be going down that easily. And can you show me an instance that proves that the Snatcher's pain manip is thought-based? Or that the hax is specifically pain and not damage outright? Scratch wouldn't have to think very hard to go "I hereby degree that you will not be able to hurt me!" Plus there are the distortions he causes to reality and gravity that much break Snatcher's concentration.
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Snatcher also spams the leaving hell out of TP, more then Scratch does when in combat. How is it not pain hax, Snatcher is causing Hat Kid pain which in game is shown by the damage she is taking when he is no where near her if it was actually damage like being hit by an attack then Hat Kid would of fallen down, hell he can affect her when she's in a completely different dimension from him. its thought based cause Snatcher is doing it when hes no-where near her, he's quite literally saying "Where's the fun in that?" in the bottom left through his Telepathy with Hat Kid as she starts taking damage. if Snatcher can stay focused during his own Reality Manipulaion then i'm sure he'd be fine with it happening back and hell nothing stops him from just TPing away and Pain Haxing from a completely different area of the world since his Hax can be used basically anywhere thanks to its range being Interdimensional.
DimeUhDozen
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Still, Snatcher would actually have to come and collect his soul. How does his soul-snatching work? Has he ever had to deal with a soul that fought back? And even then, Scratch could still possibly finish the curse since it is speech-based and takes seconds to do.
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Either way, the Snatcher would need to decide to use his reality warping earlier than Scratch would and be creative enough with his reality warping in a way that would efficiently defeat Scratch. This applies to both combatants, so in this regard, it's difficult to be able to tell who would do better.
Since the Snatcher can do the pain manipulation from a different world while probably not needing to worry about keeping the effect active, it might be a win condition for him, but it still doesn't change the general idea of my previous paragraph. The Snatcher only did this to Hat Girl because there was cheating happening. What exactly does the Snatcher regard as cheating? When would he use the ability if a character isn't cheating, and is instead a character similar to him? I don't think there are reliable answers to these questions, so I'm voting for the matchup to be inconclusive.
I wasn't questioning whether or not it would be in character for the combatants to use these kinds of abilities, I was writing that the manner in which they use them and the timing that they use them is unclear.
DimeUhDozen
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Scratch uses these a total of three times throughout the series and two of them is when he needs to get rid of a problem: Molly and Libby's bad luck. The other was for a bet. Scratch doesn't really have to get all that creative with them, he just has to come up with a curse that keeps him from losing, which can be as easy as "you can't hurt me". Plus, in the aftermath of "The Lucky Penny", Scratch already has the penny on the floor and away from Andrea, so he's not as in a hurry as he would be during combat. He would definitely speed up his words at least a little compared to that instance since he's ****** if he wouldn't.
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Scratch quite literally just Ghost Portals back making his BFR useless, Scratch's reality warping is just making things distorted its not creating an entire actual reality. neithers BFR or Reality Warping are useful in any sense.
Snatcher would pain hax seeing as he'd be unable to even harm Scratch in any significate way, I don't see how he wouldn't think that's cheating just like an invulnerability cheat (just an example), a character similar to him? him and Scratch aren't that similar nor do they know anything about the other besides what SBA allows, why does that matter in anyway they're just both ghost so that'd just mean Snatcher isn't death haxing any time soon.
he's already a soul so there would be no actual Soul Ripping involved, the only thing we know about his Soul Manip is that he could put the Souls of the people who lived in Subcon into the bodies of his Subcon Dwellers and eating the Soul since thats what he stated he'd do to Hat Kid's if he didn't have a need for her other then that we have no idea what he does with them once taken.
if someone is fighting back why would Snatcher care about their soul? when hes stolen literally thousands, he could just as easily leave Scratch there to pain away and speaking is gonna be basically impossible to do during that time since his stamina is already gonna be taking a hard dive downwards with the amount of pain he'll be feeling all over his body. its a thought VS Speech, we already know how this turns out.
DimeUhDozen
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Ghost portals also have the ability to suck in other ghosts frequently, so it's at least a little useful.
He would still have to know that he would be unable to harm him in any significant way. They would have to fight for a bit, and he could just use the ghost portals on the projectiles to suck them up. Meanwhile, Scratch knows outright that he can't harm him in a significant way and must use a curse to get the upper hand right away due to the fact that he is a ghost, knows ghosts can regen (Snatcher can't but, Scratch can assume as such), and go in and out of the ghost realm (he has a different kind of dimensional travel, but Scratch still has the idea that he is a ghost like in the ones from his dimension, so he's going on those assumptions). Scratch knows the physiology of ghosts, Snatcher would know that he can harm him due to at least one of the projectiles hitting him, but with not enough force for him to regen. Scratch already knows of his wincon earlier than Snatcher does and can activate it in seconds.
Maybe for a human, but not for a ghost. Even when he's in extreme agony and in pieces, he's still capable of speaking.he's already a soul so there would be no actual Soul Ripping involved, the only thing we know about his Soul Manip is that he could put the Souls of the people into the bodies of his Subcon Dwellers other then that we have no idea what he does with them once taken.
if someone is fighting back why would Snatcher care about their soul? when hes stolen literally thousands, he could just as easily leave Scratch there to pain away and speaking is gonna be basically impossible to do during that time since his stamina is already gonna be taking a hard dive downwards with the amount of pain he'll be feeling all over his body.
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Of course, but would he surely decide to do this before the Snatcher does? I don't know, so that's why I think it's best to vote inconclusive.
For both characters, the idea of their abilities that I'm referring to is that they can alter how reality works in the way they want to. That has the potential to produce effects that are very beneficial for either of the characters. The problem is just that I don't know which character would do the right thing at the right time for them to achieve their win.
If the Snatcher thinks that it's cheating for an opponent to naturally be physically unkillable because they're a ghost, then he's a hypocrite. Is this really definitely how he is or are you speculating that he would think this based on other actions he's done that don't prove that he's a hypocrite? If the case is the latter, then I'm staying with my vote that the matchup is inconclusive, because we can't know for sure what kind of magic the characters would use and when they would use it. Even if the Snatcher would use pain manipulation without perceiving something as cheating, it's unclear when he would do that, and if he would realize that it would be effective faster than Scratch would decide to curse him.
DimeUhDozen
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Snatcher projectiles are massive in AOE and Danmaku means that multiple well be coming at Scratch making a portal not all effective.
Snatcher isn't gonna be harming him due to the durability advantage and if he's engulfed by multiple large attacks I don't see how that wouldn't push even a bit of Regen, if Snatcher does literally no significate damage he'll resort to those haxes, that is what I have been since the beginning.
He was stressed out from all the activities he was being forced to do, he started speaking when he was putting himself back together, this is not the same as quite literally feeling tons of pain that ignored your durability and easily eats away at his stamina making him incredibly exhausted. and what does Scratch do once he sets the curse on him? nothing? he'll assume Snatcher can just regen everything and come back from the Ghost World and if he tries to face Snatcher head on from there then Snatcher well just mess with Scratch and exhaust him since Snatcher has far FAR greater Stamina or try to trick the dude into falling for his Social Influencing and making him sign a Contract that traps him in a body and this is one is a bit of a stretch but he could go for the Body Puppetry route as shown in his artwork.
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In order to convince me that it's reliable for Scratch to surely use this ability in a fight, I would prefer seeing him use it in combat. Him randomly thinking of a fun idea in a social situation is what it is; random and out of combat. I'm sure this signifies that he's willing to use the ability, but it's not enough evidence for me to confidently regard him as the winner. The Snatcher has this ambiguity too, so I can't make a good comparison.
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he's death haxed people before just for not listening to him, I don't see why he wouldn't pain hax someone for being naturally superior to him in Durability.
DimeUhDozen
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So I watched the Snatcher fight. I have this to retort.
Snatcher's attacks leave a little warning before they strike. The AOE's in particular leave a circle on the ground. Scratch has a higher reaction speed than Snatcher and Hat Kid, who he fights in this battle and has shown the capability to dodge these. Attacks like his minions and the flasks, which can definitely be seen before hand absolutely have the means to be sucked up in a ghost portal, or blown away, or transmutated into something else. The explosive flask that homes in on Hat Kid just sits there for a while before exploding too. Since he's already flying, the spikes and the shockwaves should be no problem. It's gonna be a while before he realizes he can regenerate. Plus, Scratch's 9-A feat is him tanking an explosion this large and that's still less powerful than Snatcher's explosions. With this in mind, I think Scratch would think to act on his hax more than Snatcher.
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oh wait Speed is unequalized, Snatcher cannot hit him in anyway, shape, or form and Scratch thinks he cannot harm Snatcher due to his knowledge on "ghost physiology", if Snatcher just gets pissed off enough from not being able to hit him he may resort to Hax just as when Hat Kid pissed him off enough to make him use his Death Hax just because she wouldn't sign the contract.
DimeUhDozen
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I wouldn't say that. Scratch may have a higher reaction speed but his travel speed is still supersonic. Snatcher's attacks may scathe him a little, and the fight should last as long as Hat Kid's since it's probable for Hat Kid to have a no-hit run and still achieve the same result. It takes at least a few minutes for this to happen and Scratch's win-con is very much more in reach now.
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that doesn't asnwer my question above still "what does Scratch do once he sets the curse on him? nothing? he'll assume Snatcher can just regen everything and come back from the Ghost World" if Snatcher cannot fight him physically post curse then he'll just **** with him until hes exhausted like TP'ing around, changing him size, summoning Dwellers for him to deal with, constantly BFR'ing him (it wouldn't keep him there but it'd just exhaust him), talk to him from far away with Telepathy to egg him on, etc, etc, etc, try to trick him with a contract that forces him to be put into a Subcon Dwellers body which is more then possible with his incredibly high intelligence and social influencing, and the bit of a stretch one being body puppetry.
DimeUhDozen
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Scratch's curse should be able to restrict his ability to harm him as per the rules of the curse. So, he could probably just send him to the Ghost Council to deal with him or transmutate him into a portrait or something. Either way, Snatcher has already proven himself to be untrustworthy for trying to attack him and I think Scratch would just want to finish him off instead of dealing with his contracts. And his body puppetry is extremely artsy and isn't shown in-game with any combat applicabilities.
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Snatcher attacked Hat Kid and was able to trick her into thinking he was exhausted and force a contract on her, like I said if Snatcher cannot harm him post course then he'll just wait for him to exhaust himself. Scratch wouldn't try to Kill Snatcher cause he assumed he is just like every other Ghost, if Scratch tries to BFR him Snatcher just dips lmfao it requires a portal to be opened near Snatcher when he can still TP constantly and just as easily BFR Scratch away as to exhaust him.
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But then he doesn't use death hax on Hat Girl even after she bested him. The Snatcher has a likelihood of inducing pain in someone just for bothering him, but he doesn't always do that, so there's still ambiguity.
DimeUhDozen
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He wouldn't try to kill him, but he can very much just transmutate him since his transmutation powers extend to his own self and would have no reason to believe they wouldn't work on another ghost. If he's exhausted, Scratch just ends the fight right there. Or just casts another curse to make sure he isn't allowed to use those abilities. Either way, Scratch comes out on top most of the time.
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we've never seen Scratch put multiple curses onto someone before why do we assume he could do it infinitely, His transmutation requires Snatcher to be touched when he's constantly TP'ing and using attacks that don't harm him just to keep him back like summoning dwellers to deal with him, make everything dark on Scratch, create thorny plants to block him off, use his Reality Warping and Spatial Manipulation to constantly mess him up just as hard and again i'm assuming Snatcher just doesn't resort to Hax after not being able to reliably hit Scratch and scrapping him doesn't really count when Hat Kid has been hit full blown by those attacks and nothing stops Snatcher from shutting Scratch up mid curse by pain haxing him.
I'm voting Incon at least, Scratch either curses Snatcher but doesn't have an actual reliable way of putting him down or Snatcher pain haxes Scratch to shut him up before the curse is out.
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